This is going to be a bit of a long one. I don’t often have anyone to talk about this with and i’d like a more objective and scientific approach; although keeping a sensitivity to my state of mind is nice.
Anyways, here goes. . .
I have mild gynophobia. I read a lot on Reddit about relationships and it really chips away at my hope and more importantly my trust in women. Being somewhat gynophobic, i am very sensitive to issues of Chivalry, Feminism, genderistic interaction, ect. So i was just reading on Reddit about a guy who is having trouble sexually pleasing his new (and hottest girl he’s ever dated)girlfriend. She is very kinky and likes dirty talk, being pinned down and dominated, and is very sexually ‘experienced.’ At one point, the girlfriend in question ‘half-seriously’ asked if he was gay.
Everything about the situation i was reading, was pointing toward the diminution of this guy, the emasculation of him. This hits me hard, as i have self-esteem issues especially tied to contempt/disapproval from women. I didn’t get my first girlfriend until i was 17. She was my first kiss, lost my virginity to her, and she cheated on me and deep-seated a sense of genderistic paranoia in me. I am now intensely sensitive to any kind of ‘red flags.’ For instance, this guy and his raunchy girlfriend; i would dump her. I’ll list why. First of all (based on my own experiences) the prettier the girl, the more damage she’s done to my life. Additionally, if she’s kinky and raunchy, then i calculate that she is less likely to view monogamy and long-term investment with one person as sufficiently exciting/stimulating; especially since i’m not into weird kinky stuff. (This may seem as though it’s straying from the story about the guy and his girlfriend, but it’ll circle back).
I had another girlfriend who after she met my cousin, admitted to me after our following sexual encounter that she fantasized about him while we had sex. After i dumped her a while later, im told by mutual friends that she became a big slut. She always had the personality of a girl you could easily see becoming that way. Now, i’m very sensitive to being emasculated because i had always been treated bad by girls through my upbringing. One time that is burnt into my memory is me standing in line for lunch at school in 9th grade. There is a totally hot girl in front of me, so i’m looking away so i don’t have any kind of anxiety attack. After a moment i feel like she is looking at me, so i turn and lock eyes with her for a moment and she just gives me one of the most disrespectfully disgusted faces and goes, “Uhg.” This burned into my memory as one of the milestone moments in my gynophobia; my fear of a woman’s contempt.
I spent tearful moments alone in my room, praying to a God i didn’t believe in that a girl would like me. I tried to impress them with jokes or being tough. Nothing worked. So i asked myself, “What do these girls do that impresses me?” This was an awesome moment for me, because my conclusion was, “Nothing.” They didn’t impress me at all, aside from the fact that they were ‘hott.’ So ever since that moment, i’ve had the ‘ability’ to temporarily break their hold over me. (Their hold being the anxiety that arises when they’re very attractive, acting very confident and flaunting their good looks at me for either a confidence boost, or to tease me.) I’ve dumped all of my girlfriends, because i can break their control over me. I can recognize the red flags and calculate the odds of a functioning future with these girls. I’ve come to a few different conclusions that dictate my barometers.
So back to the guy with the girl who is sexually disappointed in him, and his efforts (involving even frantic doctor visits and all) to sexually satisfy her. I guess it bothers me because i can put my self in that position in my head. And in my head the decision is always to break up. I’ve found that another girl always comes along. You wont exhaust the country’s supply of women. And it bothers me because he is very worried about her opinion of him. And it’s very understandable, because one of the worst things you can have happen in relation to your masculinity is to have your gorgeous new girlfriend ask you if you’re gay when you can’t keep an erection. This guy is scrounging for ways to please her and i remember when i did that; when that control they had over me made me desperate to receive their approval. But i was seeking the approval of those who hadn’t yet earned mine.
This is a very deep topic for me (as in, it has a lot of history with me and this is just the tip of the iceberg. I could write a book.) and i can answer questions as they come, but i really just wanted some insight, comments, advice, tips, clarity, from you guys and to get some of this off my chest. I can fill in blanks as need-be.
Thank you!
Anxieties are deep-rooted and absolutely tough to work through, but not impossible. First, since you use the terminology “anxiety,” “pathological” and have identified this as a phobia, are you in counseling for the topic as help with a therapist is going to be your best option? I think cognitive behavioral therapy and changing negative thought patterns with an objective other party is always helpful. In addition, is this the only source of anxiety or do you have generalized anxiety too? If you have other sources or generalized anxiety, you might benefit from a medication for anxiety or phobias such as a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor (SSRI). Otherwise, I would try not to read articles or go to any sources that are going to further reinforce my distressing thoughts, but I know that is easier said than done and borderline platitude. Also, you could focus on any possible positive interactions with females you have had. Relationships can be difficult for all people, regardless; it just sounds like you’ve had an extra dose of the type you cannot handle and have really interanilzed the experiences, which is also reasonable as relationships are personal and have a lot of internal meaning to us. Also, when I have really bad experiences with people, I usually (more recently) try to at least identify what some positive take-aways from that person were. So even if I view someone and a particualr experience as really bad and negative (no positive to come from it), if I really think, there is likely a lesson learned, a nugget of truth to make me stronger or some life experience I can appreciate. This is a difficult point to arrive at, especially in the beginning, but sometimes, it’s my only option for not becoming bitter or ruminating over negative situations and outcomes too long.
Best of luck to you.
I agree with Finally Decided that counseling and/or medication may be the most helpful thing, if anxiety is the main issue. Going by the examples you’ve given, anxiety seems likely.
FWIW, try to keep in mind that the girls you have known in your life didn’t despise you as much as it seems.
One time that is burnt into my memory is me standing in line for lunch at school in 9th grade. There is a totally hot girl in front of me, so i'm looking away so i don't have any kind of anxiety attack. After a moment i feel like she is looking at me, so i turn and lock eyes with her for a moment and she just gives me one of the most disrespectfully disgusted faces and goes, "Uhg." This burned into my memory as one of the milestone moments in my gynophobia; my fear of a woman's contempt. Thank you!:shut: That's harsh. I've had those experiences as well. (Some of mine were worse then yours!) All straight guys have (at least) some fear over being rejected by the girls we think are attractive; it's not a rare thing. Also..... there are few creatures more cruel than the American High school girl. :lol: :grrr: :long:
One time that is burnt into my memory is me standing in line for lunch at school in 9th grade. There is a totally hot girl in front of me, so i'm looking away so i don't have any kind of anxiety attack. After a moment i feel like she is looking at me, so i turn and lock eyes with her for a moment and she just gives me one of the most disrespectfully disgusted faces and goes, "Uhg." This burned into my memory as one of the milestone moments in my gynophobia; my fear of a woman's contempt. Thank you!:shut: That's harsh. I've had those experiences as well. (Some of mine were worse then yours!) All straight guys have (at least) some fear over being rejected by the girls we think are attractive; it's not a rare thing. Also..... there are few creatures more cruel than the American High school girl. :lol: :grrr: :long: In my experience there is one--the American High School boy! It isn't only girls who reject boys in particularly cruel ways. Boys are just as cruel in rejecting girls, often worse. Lois
Yeah my past is littered with therapies and medications, I’ve done it all before. And it’s no longer in the debilitating stage, but it does still linger. It may not be catastrophic anymore, but it is definitely present. Maybe I exentuate the heartlessness of girls and Lois does the same about guys because that’s just what we’ve experienced. I haven’t seen guys be very vindictive, malicious or cold. But I’m sure girls have seen that side of them. But the rough side of girls, my girlfriends and ex-girlfriends have admitted to seeing as well. So I wonder if guys do a good job of hiding it from other guys(?)
But anyways, in high school I wasn’t very attractive (I’m not very attractive now)but I had bad acne, over weight, bad hair do, didn’t dress well. I understand why girls weren’t attracted to me then, but I have never been able to excuse their apathy toward my feelings. I even had an ex girlfriend tell me she didn’t even know if guys had feelings. I mean, I was floored when I heard that. I think there’s a consensus with a lot of girls that guys either don’t have feelings, or have diluted feelings; which I think is just absurd. We have the same feelings as women, we’re just taught not to reveal them.
My position will likely always be biased because of my gender and my experiences and women will likely always be the villain in the story of my life. And there was always resentment when I was younger, because the better looking guys who always talked about ‘getting pu**y’ and objectified girls were the ones that the girls couldn’t shut up about-- they always had a group of girls around them. I often felt myself thinking, “I would treat them so much better than he would.” I was always the nice guy and tended to think being nice was my problem; that girls thought nice guys were boring and ‘lame.’
Even recently, on the dating site Plenty of Fish, you have girls messaging you, and playing you just for fun. I know guys are very likely to be doing this on a wider scale and messaging girls with really over-the-line perverted crap. But I had a couple girls just try to drag me through an emotional minefield just for kicks. They obviously didn’t take online dating as seriously as I did, but it is just another of seemingly endless bad experiences with the opposite sex. I often wonder, “They can’t all be like this, can they?” I can’t remember the last time I really met/talked with a nice, caring girl. Is it their upbringing? Is it their bad experiences with guys that has made them harden themselves? Or is it that women are becoming less feminine and guys are becoming less masculine? Why does it feel like when it comes to the opposite gender, they’re just out to crush you? It’s just so twilight zone to me.
My position will likely always be biased because of my gender and my experiences and women will likely always be the villain in the story of my life. And there was always resentment when I was younger, because the better looking guys who always talked about 'getting pu**y' and objectified girls were the ones that the girls couldn't shut up about-- they always had a group of girls around them. I often felt myself thinking, "I would treat them so much better than he would." I was always the nice guy and tended to think being nice was my problem; that girls thought nice guys were boring and 'lame.'When women are horny, they don't want nice, gentle guys.
Even recently, on the dating site Plenty of Fish, you have girls messaging you, and playing you just for fun. I know guys are very likely to be doing this on a wider scale and messaging girls with really over-the-line perverted crap. But I had a couple girls just try to drag me through an emotional minefield just for kicks. They obviously didn't take online dating as seriously as I did, but it is just another of seemingly endless bad experiences with the opposite sex.Those dating sites are awful, CE - especially if you're looking for something serious. Avoid like the plague.
You mentioned in your original post that girls in high school were particularly hurtful; remember that people change as they grow. Oftentimes, high school is just experimental for both females and males and it probably is not a good idea to base our present experiences on the negative ones from teenage/younger years. As midatlantic said, girls in HS are likely looking for that “bad” type of guy, not the “good, well-behaved” type as they too are in that experimental and rebellious phase of life. However, isn’t it true, from an anthropological perspective, women (as adults with maturity) will be most likely to choose a “good, nice type” guy as they perceive them as better mates for long-term relations and child-rearing activities? Also, athropologically, there is much evidence that this notion of monogamy that we live under may not be the norm and healthiest. Some couples are more relaxed and allow negiotiated forms of recreational non-monogamy.
You mentioned in your original post that girls in high school were particularly hurtful; remember that people change as they grow. Oftentimes, high school is just experimental for both females and males and it probably is not a good idea to base our present experiences on the negative ones from teenage/younger years. As midatlantic said, girls in HS are likely looking for that "bad" type of guy, not the "good, well-behaved" type as they too are in that experimental and rebellious phase of life. However, isn't it true,1.) from an anthropological perspective, women (as adults with maturity) will be most likely to choose a "good, nice type" guy as they perceive them as better mates for long-term relations and child-rearing activities? Also, athropologically, there is much evidence that this notion of monogamy that we live under may not be the norm and healthiest. 2.)Some couples are more relaxed and allow negiotiated forms of recreational non-monogamy.1.) Anthropologically I'd say that's accurate of past women. But nowadays it seems that many women find the well-behaved guys to be boring and in today's 'always-exciting' world, I think women (on mass) need more stimulation/excitement. 2.) That just doesn't even compute for me. (to be able to do that) Maybe I'm not secure enough with myself or something, but it gives me a sinking feeling in my heart to think about it. Maybe I'm just old-fashioned? And about focusing on bad experiences of my past, that was something my therapist tried to focus on. He told me my mistake is looking at those instances through the mindset/goggles of myself in that time. But I'm older now, and I can better analyze the situation and reveal that the girl in question is actually the one with something wrong, and not so much myself. Criticism often reveals more about the critic than the subject being critiqued.
You mentioned in your original post that girls in high school were particularly hurtful; remember that people change as they grow. Oftentimes, high school is just experimental for both females and males and it probably is not a good idea to base our present experiences on the negative ones from teenage/younger years. As midatlantic said, girls in HS are likely looking for that "bad" type of guy, not the "good, well-behaved" type as they too are in that experimental and rebellious phase of life. However, isn't it true,1.) from an anthropological perspective, women (as adults with maturity) will be most likely to choose a "good, nice type" guy as they perceive them as better mates for long-term relations and child-rearing activities? Also, athropologically, there is much evidence that this notion of monogamy that we live under may not be the norm and healthiest. 2.)Some couples are more relaxed and allow negiotiated forms of recreational non-monogamy.1.) Anthropologically I'd say that's accurate of past women. But nowadays it seems that many women find the well-behaved guys to be boring and in today's 'always-exciting' world, I think women (on mass) need more stimulation/excitement. I should have been more clear in my previous post, but women always want "macho" men when they're ovulating, which equals being horny. When they're not horny, they want tame, sensitive men - men to keep home with, IOW. Plenty of studies have confirmed this, as does the lived experience of entire world.
I see. So it would be advantageous to be kind of a proverbial ambivert with respect to masculinity and women’s desire for it? Hm. I’ve kind of done away with the desire to appease women’s expectations/standards of my masculinity as a man; just as many women don’t give much of a damn about how feminine men wish them to be.
I think masculinity itself is an abstraction that exists only at the level of the brain. I’ve grown to no longer bother with it.
I see. So it would be advantageous to be kind of a proverbial ambivert with respect to masculinity and women's desire for it? Hm. I've kind of done away with the desire to appease women's expectations/standards of my masculinity as a man; just as many women don't give much of a damn about how feminine men wish them to be. I think masculinity itself is an abstraction that exists only at the level of the brain. I've grown to no longer bother with it.Forget about masculinity. Learn to be a good friend. Don't start relationships with sexual or romantic expectations. Romantic and sexual relationships are best if friendship comes first. Hold off on all sexual talk and expectations until a friendship is well-established. If she seems uncomfortable in a friendship, back away, and don't take it as a personal rejection. It would be better for you to pursue several platonic friendships with women at the same time. Don't swoop in for the kill. After you know a girl for a while you can ask her in friendly, nonthreatening, nonaggressive way with no pressure if she'd be interested in a closer relatonship. If she says no or "not now,'" say you understand and that you hope you can continue to be a friends and avoid bringing it up again. Wait for her to take the lead. Learn to read people and try to keep your ego out of it. Despite what you see in movies and read in books and magazines, successful romantic connections are rare, they are often fragile and should never be pushed. Never show your distress at her reluctance to have a closer relationship. Accept it for what it is. Lois
Thank you, Lois. This makes sense.
You might also try to find a few female mentors who may be able to tell you what there is about you that could possibly appear negative to women. Then you could try to change them. I’m not suggesting that you have any of these, but some examples would be body or mouth odors, being overweight, wearing dirty or old clothes, making “clever” comments that are seen as put-downs, radiating depression rather than happiness.
Prior to my first real relationship I had many misconceptions about making love and sex. Fortunately, my girlfriend was far more experienced and intelligent than I and corrected me each time I screwed up.
You probably have an image of the perfect woman (your sig. sort of indicates that), and if you were a handsome, wealthy, athlete/scientist/movie star you might get one, but if you’re an average guy, don’t set your sights too high.
Occam
It is challenging to be personally objective about sexuality, as sex pervades our biology and our culture. But it really is just one aspect of our lives.
You might also try to find a few female mentors who may be able to tell you what there is about you that could possibly appear negative to women. Then you could try to change them. I'm not suggesting that you have any of these, but some examples would be body or mouth odors, being overweight, wearing dirty or old clothes, making "clever" comments that are seen as put-downs, radiating depression rather than happiness. Prior to my first real relationship I had many misconceptions about making love and sex. Fortunately, my girlfriend was far more experienced and intelligent than I and corrected me each time I screwed up. You probably have an image of the perfect woman (your sig. sort of indicates that), and if you were a handsome, wealthy, athlete/scientist/movie star you might get one, but if you're an average guy, don't set your sights too high. OccamOh i haven't set my sights too high; in fact, i view beautiful girls as a deduction. The prettier the girl, the more damage she has done to my life. I go for average, as i'm average myself. I don't know if i've mentioned this, but i have a girlfriend and have been with her for 4-5 months. I met her on Plenty of Fish. Things are awesome with her. The problems i'm speaking of are typically there in social situations and also when i'm single. I think one of the problems is i don't really have any friends. I have one, but he has many friends and a fiance, so finding time to hang out is a weekly to bi-weekly thing. So i can't just take my mind off of my anxieties/depression by hanging with friends. I tend to just sit around-- i don't have the budget to go do many things, and no one to do much with. But i do have an image of my perfect woman (physically) but i in no way try to nab a woman that fits that description.