Just what is meant by "liberal"

[lausten]

David Brooks made an almost offhand comment on NPR news yesterday. He was arguing the conservative side of the Supreme Court situation. He said, after years of “liberal” decisions coming out of the Court, why is that that when some “conservative” decisions, suddenly they are playing politics? There was no chance to follow up on that.

I’ve heard this before in variety of ways, and I’ve tried to ask people about it when I get the chance. Just what are they talking about? Civil rights? More people able to vote? Fairness in housing? Laws about equal opportunity? All of these things seem to me to be in line with the principles of the Constitution, the culmination of the vision of people who wanted freedoms but couldn’t figure out to deal with the reality of Medieval leftovers, like slavery.

And the recent conservatives changes are directly from those Dark Ages. Just read Alito’s decision on Dobbs (overturning Roe).

AmIRight?

[morgankane01]

The matter is that the duty of any judge is to interpret the law and and applies his interpretation of the text to the case.

In most cases, the text is clear and the judge has no margin to choose.

In some cases, he has a choice to make.

Doing so, he must abstract himself from his personal opinion. But at the same time, he must give an interpretation which agrees with the spirit of the text, and the spirit of the time.

And he must take care of the consequences of his decision. To judge is not an exercise in abstraction.

The first main reproach i do to the conservative judges of SCOTUS is that they don’t judge in the name of the whole people but in the name of their political agenda.

The second one i do is that they don’t give a dam about the consequences of their decisions.

I have worked in public law for morte than thirty years. I have seen judges of many political views taking decisions contrary or conform their political tendencies.

I have seen some, in some cases judging from their political views.

In France every case of importance in public and administrative law is judged by a panel of judges. The French council of state, which is the supreme French administrative court, has been accused in a very short lapse of time of being a liberal and a conservative, and of doing politics, because he was judging different cases in favor or against the government.

Not sure that it will help you

[pointpath]

@lausten

Civil rights? More people able to vote? Fairness in housing? Laws about equal opportunity? All of these things seem to me to be in line with the principles of the Constitution, the culmination of the vision of people who wanted freedoms but couldn’t figure out to deal with the reality of Medieval leftovers, like slavery.

For one, it saddens me to strongly believe you are right. Racism remains entrenched in too many cultures. We know that for over two hundred years, buying and selling people from Africa became an industry of necessity for all the people caught up in the world of slavery. This was conservatism, desperately fighting to maintain the world of slavery.

A lot of people represent themselves or their policies as conservative. Today, that word raises a red flag for me. If I am interested in a conservative message, I listen with the ears of critical thinking.

To me, conservatism has morphed from the parliamentary role of the loyal opposition to a diabolical enemy of American democracy.

A remedy made popular from Trumpism politics is to deny truths, claim fake news, and write the history to support the misleading and erroneous explanation of events to suit the desired political position. Don’t “say gay” comes to mind as an unbelievable law.

Just what is meant by “liberal”

I think “liberal” means being socially aware and responsible. It is governing from democratic policies that guarantee a more equitable style for human dignity for all.

[morgankane01]

@pointpath

Just what is meant by “liberal”

Nowadays, or historically ?

I try again

[Liberal, a pejorative word ?]

I will add that Milton Friedman, the guru of Reagan, Thatcher, and Pinochet called himself a liberal. And Trump as a businessman is a liberal.

Basically, a liberal is an adept of personal freedom.

Now nowadays, the word has become an insult when used by conservatives who are in fact liberals in the traditional meaning of the word.

Now, there are many topics and matters. I have tried to sum up them in a matrix

I mean:

-Economy: market against administrated economy
-Environment: Is the climate change a truth or an hoax ? ?

• Social welfare: parental allocations, state health insurance and so
  -Societal: genre, LGBT rights and so, abortion, the right to live as one wants
• Cultural : right of expression, artistic or no, of information and so
• Race and colonialism : self-explaining i think
  -State authority: is the policeman always right, are the judge enough punishing, and so
  -Religion: Self-explaining

One can be ultra-left on some topics, and ultra right on others. A libertarian would be ultra-right on economy, social welfare, ultra-left about societal, cultural, state authority, and should be about religion. He could be ultra-left on the other ones.

Does that makes him a liberal, a social-democrat or something like that ? For me no.

The debate about society, race, colonialism and so, has supplanted the debate about class and economy, and environment. And that’s a victory for capitalism !!!

Now, i am going to give an exemple, about the work of the judge :

An illegal immigrant enters into France. The french police wants to expel him back to his country. the man contests the decision in front of an administrative judge.

The European convention of human rights states

ARTICLE 8
Right to respect for private and family life

1. Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.

2. There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.

It means that the judge must balance the rights of the man to a familial life in France with the interests of the French state.

How long has he lived in France ? does he have family, wife, children or friends? Has he worked in France?

Has is committed some misdemeanor ?

An ultra-left judge reflex would be to cancel the state decision, an ultra-right judge reflex would be to uphold it.

The duty of the judge is to make an honest balance and to refer to the preceding cases to decide this one. not easy !

And that, independently of his political opinions.

A few years ago, an independent French NGO has computed statistics. Some judges never cancel the state decision, some cancel very often. The average rate of cancellation was roughly 10 %.

Are French judges liberals ?

Incidentally, the European court of Human Rights has judged that abortion was not a matte rof privacy and that article 8 did not apply.

[mriana]

I’m a liberal on many things, a progressive on some things, and a meh, I don’t care, as long as they aren’t hurting anyone. Except for religion- that’s a BIG NO. The list above left our sexual and gender orientation, of which I’m a just a meh, I don’t care, as long as they aren’t hurting anyone. So that chart leaves out a lot of things.

[morgankane01]

for me, it is included in societal.

but i am open to any proposition to get a better list

[mriana]

@morgankane01

for me, it is included in societal.

Yeah, I guess it could be.

@morgankane01

but i am open to any proposition to get a better list

I have no ideas.

[pointpath]

great answer, the granularity is overwhelming.

[morgankane01]

Found on the net - FB -

Alec Peters

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This is the perfect summation of what it means to be liberal.

Let’s be clear, the MAGA movement doesn’t believe any of this.

“I’m a liberal, but that doesn’t mean what a lot of you apparently think it does. Let’s break it down, shall we? Because quite frankly, I’m getting a little tired of being told what I believe and what I stand for. Spoiler alert: not every liberal is the same, though the majority of liberals I know think along roughly these same lines:

1. I believe a country should take care of its weakest members. A country cannot call itself civilized when its children, disabled, sick, and elderly are neglected. PERIOD.

2. I believe healthcare is a right, not a privilege. Somehow that’s interpreted as “I believe Obamacare is the end-all, be-all.” This is not the case. I’m fully aware that the ACA has problems, that a national healthcare system would require everyone to chip in, and that it’s impossible to create one that is devoid of flaws, but I have yet to hear an argument against it that makes “let people die because they can’t afford healthcare” a better alternative. I believe healthcare should be far cheaper than it is, and that everyone should have access to it. And no, I’m not opposed to paying higher taxes in the name of making that happen.

3. I believe education should be affordable. It doesn’t necessarily have to be free (though it works in other countries so I’m mystified as to why it can’t work in the US), but at the end of the day, there is no excuse for students graduating college saddled with five- or six-figure debt.

4. I don’t believe your money should be taken from you and given to people who don’t want to work. I have literally never encountered anyone who believes this. Ever. I just have a massive moral problem with a society where a handful of people can possess the majority of the wealth while there are people literally starving to death, freezing to death, or dying because they can’t afford to go to the doctor. Fair wages, lower housing costs, universal healthcare, affordable education, and the wealthy actually paying their share would go a long way toward alleviating this. Somehow believing that makes me a communist.

5. I don’t throw around “I’m willing to pay higher taxes” lightly. If I’m suggesting something that involves paying more, well, it’s because I’m fine with paying my share as long as it’s actually going to something besides lining corporate pockets or bombing other countries while Americans die without healthcare.

6. I believe companies should be required to pay their employees a decent, livable wage. Somehow this is always interpreted as me wanting burger flippers to be able to afford a penthouse apartment and a Mercedes. What it actually means is that no one should have to work three full-time jobs just to keep their head above water. Restaurant servers should not have to rely on tips, multibillion-dollar companies should not have employees on food stamps, workers shouldn’t have to work themselves into the ground just to barely make ends meet, and minimum wage should be enough for someone to work 40 hours and live.

7. I am not anti-Christian. I have no desire to stop Christians from being Christians, to close churches, to ban the Bible, to forbid prayer in school, etc. (BTW, prayer in school is NOT illegal; compulsory prayer in school is - and should be - illegal). All I ask is that Christians recognize my right to live according to my beliefs. When I get pissed off that a politician is trying to legislate Scripture into law, I’m not “offended by Christianity” – I’m offended that you’re trying to force me to live by your religion’s rules. You know how you get really upset at the thought of Muslims imposing Sharia law on you? That’s how I feel about Christians trying to impose biblical law on me. Be a Christian. Do your thing. Just don’t force it on me or mine.

8. I don’t believe LGBT people should have more rights than you. I just believe they should have the same rights as you.

9. I don’t believe illegal immigrants should come to America and have the world at their feet, especially since THIS ISN’T WHAT THEY DO (spoiler: undocumented immigrants are ineligible for all those programs they’re supposed to be abusing, and if they’re “stealing” your job it’s because your employer is hiring illegally). I believe there are far more humane ways to handle undocumented immigration than our current practices (i.e., detaining children, splitting up families, ending DACA, etc).

10. I don’t believe the government should regulate everything, but since greed is such a driving force in our country, we NEED regulations to prevent cut corners, environmental destruction, tainted food/water, unsafe materials in consumable goods or medical equipment, etc. It’s not that I want the government’s hands in everything – I just don’t trust people trying to make money to ensure that their products/practices/etc. are actually SAFE. Is the government devoid of shadiness? Of course not. But with those regulations in place, consumers have recourse if they’re harmed and companies are liable for medical bills, environmental cleanup, etc. Just kind of seems like common sense when the alternative to government regulation is letting companies bring their bottom line into the equation.

11. I believe our current administration is fascist. Not because I dislike them or because I can’t get over an election, but because I’ve spent too many years reading and learning about the Third Reich to miss the similarities. Not because any administration I dislike must be Nazis, but because things are actually mirroring authoritarian and fascist regimes of the past.

12. I believe the systemic racism and misogyny in our society is much worse than many people think, and desperately needs to be addressed. Which means those with privilege – white, straight, male, economic, etc. – need to start listening, even if you don’t like what you’re hearing, so we can start dismantling everything that’s causing people to be marginalized.

13. I am not interested in coming after your blessed guns, nor is anyone serving in government. What I am interested in is the enforcement of present laws and enacting new, common sense gun regulations. Got another opinion? Put it on your page, not mine.

14. I believe in so-called political correctness. I prefer to think it’s social politeness. If I call you Chuck and you say you prefer to be called Charles I’ll call you Charles. It’s the polite thing to do. Not because everyone is a delicate snowflake, but because as Maya Angelou put it, when we know better, we do better. When someone tells you that a term or phrase is more accurate/less hurtful than the one you’re using, you now know better. So why not do better? How does it hurt you to NOT hurt another person?

15. I believe in funding sustainable energy, including offering education to people currently working in coal or oil so they can change jobs. There are too many sustainable options available for us to continue with coal and oil. Sorry, billionaires. Maybe try investing in something else.

16. I believe that women should not be treated as a separate class of human. They should be paid the same as men who do the same work, should have the same rights as men and should be free from abuse. Why on earth shouldn’t they be?

I think that about covers it. Bottom line is that I’m a liberal because I think we should take care of each other. That doesn’t mean you should work 80 hours a week so your lazy neighbor can get all your money. It just means I don’t believe there is any scenario in which preventable suffering is an acceptable outcome as long as money is saved.”

[thatoneguy]

Good example of what liberal means, and why the correct thing to do is keep them away from decision making.

[write4u]

@morgankane01

I think that about covers it. Bottom line is that I’m a liberal because I think we should take care of each other. That doesn’t mean you should work 80 hours a week so your lazy neighbor can get all your money. It just means I don’t believe there is any scenario in which preventable suffering is an acceptable outcome as long as money is saved.”

@thatoneguy

Good example of liberal means, and why the correct thing to do is keep them away from decision making.

Really, and you believe that the decisions made today in the name of MAGA are better than as outlined above?

Plans to invade Canada and make it a forced state of US because that would please Canadians?

[morgankane01]

@write4u

Really, and you believe that the decisions made today in the name of MAGA are better than as outlined above?

May be thatonguy prefers attacks on Amerindians US nationality ?

Maybe he prefers the dismantling of the intern government system of control by the illegal dismissal of the Federal inspectors?

May be he prefers the closure of USAID, to the detriment of US farmers and a gift to China and Russia?
Maybe he prefers some very controversial nominations ?

And, about the sixteen points, maybe he prefers the reverse, a true nightmare ?

1. A country where the Weaks are neglected and let to die.
2. A country where health costs so prohibitively that nobody, except the true Richs can afford it ?
3. A country of uneducated and ignorant people, unable to produce the doctors, the engineers and the specialists it needs?
4. A country where the Poors die, working for no wages, slaves in fact ?
5. A country without taxes, or taxes appropriated by the Richs?
6. See point 4.
7. A country where Maga ideology dictates the way people live?
8. A country where LGTB and minorities activists are sent in concentration camps, or at least made minot citizens ?
9. USA without any migrants?
10. A country where tainted food and dangerous consumer goods are the norm ?
11. A fascist dictatorship in USA ?
12. A country of apartheid ?
13. A country where anyone can possess any weapon he wants?
14. A racist and misogynist and violent against the Weaks, the minorities, the women country, racism and so being openly expressed and displayed?
15. A country where pollution is the norm, nature being killed.
16. US women treated as Iranian ones?

[write4u]

Sounds like a reasonable summation of what is currently in process.

[thatoneguy]

@write4u

Really, and you believe that the decisions made today in the name of MAGA are better than as outlined above?

Plans to invade Canada and make it a forced state of US because that would please Canadians?

There are no plans to invade Canada.

And almost anything is better that liberalism today.

[thatoneguy]

None of that is going to happen besides maybe number 9. No migrants would be nice.

[write4u]

Are you prepared to pay 5 dollars for a head of lettuce for your pre-dinner salad?

[thatoneguy]

I’m willing to pay more for local products.

[write4u]

In exchange of what?

[thatoneguy]

A pause on immigration.

[write4u]

And you think life will be cheaper when white nationalists do the harvesting?

Think again.

Seasonal migrant workers are individuals who work in seasonal positions, often in agriculture, and travel from their permanent residence to seek this work. They may have a permanent place they return to after the working season.

The Migrant and Seasonal Agricultural Worker Protection Act (MSPA) provides protections for these workers by establishing employment standards related to wages, housing, and transportation.

Additionally, programs like the National Farmworker Jobs Program (NFJP) offer supportive services to help these workers achieve economic self-sufficiency.

Guide - Employ Seasonal Migrant Workers | Workforce PayHub