Perhaps objectively, in the macro-cosmic sense, there is no “meaning” but subjectively we find, or are conditioned to, or choose meaning. And subjectively some things are better than others. You are saying that the subjective meaning that we each have, and the meaning that we may have collectively, is not real. The subjective is part of reality too, in case you hadn’t noticed. Plus our subjective meaning and values can be tested (to some extent) as to how well it corresponds (or not) to objective reality.
As long as you continue to insist that something is a lie you are free to argue whatever point of view you choose. That makes it pretty much impossible to have a conversation with you. Whatever I try to say is real, you will include it as part of what you call a lie, if you want to. I’m stuck in a real world. I have limited senses to determine what’s real, but I use them as best I can. I try to match my experience to the experiences of others and to consistently repeatable phenomena. That’s the opposite of arbitrary. An experience in my mind of meaning is something that exists.
You talk about some truth. You say it’s harsh. But you never say what it is. It’s easy to sit back and say other people’s experiences aren’t real. It’s easy to disengage and say things don’t matter. That it doesn’t matter if you harm someone. It matters to that someone. You’re choosing doing nothing over doing work that doesn’t ultimately matter, so apparently one thing is better than another. Once again, you contradict yourself.
For anyone not familiar with Titanomachina, note the similarity
https://centerforinquiry.org/forums/topic/18511/
Wow, I was on here years ago and remember that name. There absolutely is an eerie similarity.
If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to hear it, did it make a sound? Well, it made sound waves. Our subjective reality is simply various forms of neurological patterns of firing. They really do occur. Some may be dreaming behaviors, or hallucination behaviors, or delusional thinking behaviors and, hence, may not correlate with objective reality at all. But they still exist. They are still a part of reality. More importantly (even often critical to survival), however, are all of the thinking behaviors that do have good correlation with objective reality.
Generally we cannot directly observe the neurological patterns of firing that correlate to thinking behaviors. But neurological researchers have been gradually progressing towards doing that.
As long as you continue to insist that something is a lie you are free to argue whatever point of view you choose. That makes it pretty much impossible to have a conversation with you. Whatever I try to say is real, you will include it as part of what you call a lie, if you want to. I’m stuck in a real world. I have limited senses to determine what’s real, but I use them as best I can. I try to match my experience to the experiences of others and to consistently repeatable phenomena. That’s the opposite of arbitrary. An experience in my mind of meaning is something that exists.
You talk about some truth. You say it’s harsh. But you never say what it is. It’s easy to sit back and say other people’s experiences aren’t real. It’s easy to disengage and say things don’t matter. That it doesn’t matter if you harm someone. It matters to that someone. You’re choosing doing nothing over doing work that doesn’t ultimately matter, so apparently one thing is better than another. Once again, you contradict yourself.
Again, I’m just basing this off Buddhism which seems to state that we live in a “backwards” world.
That’s a good article Xian. You should read the whole thing instead of stopping where it says “backwards world” and deciding you are a Buddhist. It goes on to talk about how to live in this world.
You seem to miss the bit about the backwards world and not preventing harm (because it is backwards). I read the whole thing, it’s not that good and only a few of the points are non woo related.
But it just goes back to the picture world bit I started with and how you are not the body or a self or anything that we have been led to believe.
how could meditation create an illusion? Even in contemplation you cannot find a self anywhere. Who is it that is witness to the experience of your thoughts? What is no longer in the body when it dies? Consciousness. This is more subtle that space and time because both exist within it and as is it's nature it is conscious of these things. Consciousness must be the basis for all things as without a perceiver nothing could exist in relation to anything else. It is the life that illuminates the body and mind. The lamp of the body. Consciousness has to first touch upon something for that some thing to be proclaimed said thing. Consciousness is the first light that allows an I and allows a something other than I. Yet this I doesn't exist unless it is lot by consciousness thereby becoming conscious. That is our nature, we are conscious, we are consciousness and it alone exists. Consciousness cannot percieve consciousness because it has no structure, it simply is. Therefore only void exists. Within consciousness/void there are appearances that are percieved to be but are not there in truth because all is vibration but this vibration arises as an emanation or some call it the word of God. Void is infinite by nature, void is your reality, void and everythingness are the same thing. Consciousness was not born of some thing, how could it be? It must be eternal and having no beginning means no end means infinite infinity which is equal to every possible experience to be seen in consciousness by consciousness as a side effect or emanation of conscious. It is simply the nature of no-thing to be aware, to be aware means to be relative to something, therefore thing is percieved to be yet in truth is not.. if you have not experienced this state of being non-localized consciousness then I can't give you the personal experience, you have to seek it so it is made aware and turns it's gaze upon you and when it does you find yourself looking as the gazer upon yourself but ad something else, so the body you thought was yours is not you. You are perceiving it so you are the perceptiver itself not what is percieved.Buddhism is filled with stuff like that. How true reality isn't relative and that only the eternal is real (although that might be Hindu but there are similar claims in Buddhism.
As for the article, it doesn’t really talk about how to live in the world but more like how to be a Buddhist. Doing good is pretty arbitrary and he doesn’t really describe or illustrate the points about avoiding harm or why this world is backwards.
I read the whole thing, it’s not that good and only a few of the points are non woo related.
But it just goes back to the picture world bit I started with and how you are not the body or a self or anything that we have been led to believe.
Sooooo, you read the whole thing, but you don’t seem too impressed by it. The part you quoted would be what I would call “word salad”. I’m not going to respond to it, since you don’t seem to care anyway. So, whether you read it or not, you’re just picking out parts of it to claim as something you should be attached to or “not be able to shake” or whatever else you say. Whatever it is, I can’t tell what you really believe or why you take the points of view that you do. So, maybe you should start an actual conversation instead of whatever it is you are doing.
I am merely stating the parts with which he appears to elaborate on. That “word salad” is actually a bit about what he is trying to get at too. Like he said about the body just being more like the awareness of the body and not any actual physical aspect. The tips he gives in that other article are based on the original claim that the world is backwards.
It pretty much flows like it does. Though I get it if people can’t respond to it. I can’t and I have tried to find ways around it. You might have read his six points, but only a few are practical advice like “do good” or “take responsibility” (even though Buddhism talks plenty about the illusion of control and learning to let go so that is kind of confusing). It’s not like I haven’t shared this stuff elsewhere, but other people can’t seem to “counter” it and so far googling it just leads to other websites that reinforce it to be true.
Like that LARGE block that essentially states that things arise and cease in awareness and that awareness is where all things are born and arise. Though I highly doubt that for MANY reasons, largely because things still happen even without me being aware of it. And claiming you aren’t the body because “existing to die makes no sense” isn’t an argument, but more like fear. That is what IS, who said it had to make more sense than that. People die and the brain produces consciousness.
You aren’t “merely stating”, you are claiming there aren’t counters to these statements.
We can and have responded to it. You can, but you pretend like you can’t. There is nothing to “get around”. When someone asserts something with no evidence, there is no logic or evidence required to show they did that. You can merely point that out. BTW, why did you put “counter” in quotes? Also, Googling something and finding it repeated doesn’t reinforce its truth.
I know you’re pretending because you tell us what you “highly doubt”. You tell us things happen without you being aware of it, and that what is doesn’t have to make some degree of sense. You are an unusual troll, but you are still a troll.
interesting thread
"interesting thread"So, Kevin, do you have an opinion on this?
Adding your view will make it even more interesting.
We can and have responded to it. You can, but you pretend like you can’t. There is nothing to “get around”. When someone asserts something with no evidence, there is no logic or evidence required to show they did that. You can merely point that out. BTW, why did you put “counter” in quotes? Also, Googling something and finding it repeated doesn’t reinforce its truth.I know you’re pretending because you tell us what you “highly doubt”. You tell us things happen without you being aware of it, and that what is doesn’t have to make some degree of sense. You are an unusual troll, but you are still a troll.
But no one has given me an answer in regards to the whole bit about “who you really are” (by throwing out family, self, what moves you, etc, because they say that isn’t it). If I knew the answer to this I would say so, but when I ponder and think I end up proving the people right.
Like how it says you are the universe. That you aren’t “born” but rather just a form, that this is just another form or “manifestation” (I’m sorry about that, it sounds silly but I’m working within their vocabulary). People told me that death isn’t the destruction of matter, so when you die I guess they mean that you don’t really die but just transition to another “form”. That what looks like birth and death to us is really just the passing and shaping of forms of this universe.
I want to say that is nonsense and they are just looking for a way to deal with death (like most cultures tend to do), but when I question that I just end up back to proving them. That is why I ask for help, I can’t do this by myself.
but when I question that I just end up back to proving themShow me your work. Show me this proof. I can't comment on "I ponder it and end up proving it".
I just noted it. It’s the second paragraph. But the hardest thing for me to overcome is this idea of “beyond any concept we have”. Like the truth is something that someone can’t describe as mentioned here.
label me anything you like, spiritual, delusional, whatever, but just by telling me that I'm wrong posits that you are correct. You are assuming that I am seeking completion. I am not. Completion would leave nothing more to live for. However, I have saught answers to the big questions of life and self since I was very very young. I was born a seeker of truth and as a child I felt I couldn't truly go into the world without knowing why I'm going out or what I'm going out into and as what am I going out. I couldn't find any reasonable answers from any adult source so I began studying Christianity and then when I still had questions found myself searching other religions and science as well. They all point to a conclusion that doesn't need explained again. At the end of the day all this is, the theory that I and many other spiritual people have witnessed, is no more than words on a screen. I'm no longer interested in the semantics and I admit that some of my outlook may not be 100% accurate but it's what I experience. You are entitled to disagree. It takes all kinds as they say. It is strange to me however as to what you are doing on this video of you don't have vision yet and are closed to the subject entirely. I'm open to ur worldview and I have taken into consideration many times the big bang theory. Something curious seems to prevail in that black holes are said to contain a singularity. This is something that destroys many other theories about gravity and time and space; in the existence of a singularity within a dual universe, we must have infinite density at the core. This is the prevailing idea as to whether or not we can rely on Einsteinian calculations or start to view the universe from the basis of a singularity and begin from there. Many scientists are already considering matter as having been created from consciousness and not the other way around. You cannot make something from nothing. In the beginning of our universe there must have been a some-thing in which to explode and expand at ever increasing speed. This something.. where did it come from then? It makes the absolute most sense to me that within consciousness we have a seemingly existing universe. I also entertain the idea that a dying star created a black hole in another universe and sucked matter in and condensed it and on the other side of that we experience the big bang and creation and distribution of our universe. Trust me at least on the fact that I have spent alot of time weighing theories/ideas and did not arrive at my worldview out of some need for completion. The bent of my nature is pulled towards seeing things in a balanced fashion. Balance. Seeing from both sides, considering all things and all things includes the path of the shaman, the medicine wheel, the eastern outlook. I'm from the west, I already know enough western ideology. The East however has a much older, richer, and more vast wealth of theology and religion that points to things I hadn't been raised to consider, opening me up to a whole vista of ways to realize what is actually the truth of our existence. What lies at the heart of the matter? Who are we and where did we come from. I have my ideas and most of them are from actual personal experience that you dismiss as "hallucination" but I can't translate the experience and it's reality to you so it is only my word. I have nothing to prove to anyone but I enjoy learning more while also practicing being present in the moment without bringing my egoic conditioning into how I view reality. Most everyone never witnesses what is truly reality because they are wearing many masks, many layers of conditioned thinking making what is truly there into something that fits what they know about reality from all the concepts they have adopted. That is why I say my theory is no more than mere words. I can't express perfectly what my reality became once I realized what is. That leaves me with mere words that bend what I witness(ed) (am witnessing) to explain that which cannot be explained. That's ok. It's ok that you assume I have adopted a theory too. Everything is always ok and I am not stressing anything, only realizing myself and my world while being the silence that is the beginning of a thought, a form, a sound; all things arise out of silence and that is my focus, it is my heart and it is consciously aware of the fact that it exists and it is a divine miracle to me and this miracle is Me, Self, within and without this body, I am.
You have to be joking. This barely passes basic grammar tests. I’ll just pick one thing. It’s pretty key. If you can’t answer this, the whole thing is in trouble.
Many scientists are already considering matter as having been created from consciousness and not the other way around.Really? name one.
Lausten, you’re a warrior.
But this battle is unwinnable. Xian loves mystery, not truth. He will stand in one place forever, ogling mystery, rather than take one step forward by thinking about it.
I know and am friends with lots of people like this- if you ignore their inability to show an interest in the truth, they are often great people, just don’t get involved in political/religious/philosophical discussions with them, or you will wonder why you’re friends with them.
Once again you couldn’t be further from the point Rat.
I don’t like mystery, unless it’s just idle wondering. The thing about stuff like this is that I want it to be wrong but when other people I speak to about it just call it nonsense and don’t show the work why it makes it hard to buy it from them.
Lausten asked for the reasoning behind the “you are the universe” and things similar to that and hasn’t responded to it. Your response is more like to call it nonsense, but not say why or even show why it is so. You aren’t really helpful here.
I would like to be done with this stuff so I can sleep at night and not be haunted. But the fact that you see people who claim to have experiences a truth that can’t be put into words (like the block text says) and it shows in their behavior, you can’t help but give pause to just writing them off. One can’t just label something as nonsense without saying why. It’s similar to how your answer to what questions are worthwhile seems to be “because I say so” (that didn’t work on me as a kid and it won’t now, you just can’t answer). You seem to place the blame on me for your inability to poke holes in their argument or claim.
Its not like I enjoy thinking about this stuff, but it threatens to undermine what I know of life.
Xian, remember all the things I’ve said on here? I know you don’t, so I strongly urge you to go to my profile, go to my posts, and read them. I haven’t been posting on here that long, so it won’t take nearly as long to read as it takes to read an article from off the internet that might drown you in more angst.
Read with an open mind and think about things that contradict what you believe (especially if you only kinda believe it because you read an article on the internet). On one of these threads you said you couldn’t write off the possibility of a giant hummingbird living on the moon- that right there demonstrates that you put no thought into it at all. There are lots of other things I’ve said that you completely ignored, which, understandably, makes me feel like my time with you wasted (other than having fun coming up with things like hummingbirds on the moon.) And others have spent far more time with you than I have, and they really aren’t getting value for their time.
Unless you take the time and effort required to seriously think about all of the stuff we spent time and effort giving to you, you are disrespecting all of us.