I know what philosophy is. It’s not simply asking questions and making up answers. It’s answering questions using logic and reason, then asking more questions, and when you get to where you can’t answer the question, it’s asking why you can’t. It’s not a lie to not know what is not yet known. It’s a lie to say you know something that you don’t. How do you know that black light is the source of all light? Bonus question, how do I know that you don’t know that?
Apparently the answer to that question is “direct experience” or as spiritual people put it “directly experiencing reality without all our concepts and labels, truly nondual”. Whatever that means, but it’s the answer I get.
I don’t know what that answer means. Even if it’s possibly correct, your direct experience is useless to anyone else. If you can’t describe your experience or devise a demonstration to show what your experience is to others, then it is forever locked in you. It is no different to me than if you told me that you dreamed it. To you, it’s real, to me it’s information I can’t confirm. What we’re left with is you (or these website people) telling me there is something I’m missing and I have to follow some rules, some path that you say will get to where you are, even if I can see that others have taken that path and not gotten there. This is basically the same as religion.
Xian, why in the name of all that is holey (like my socks) do you insist on saying things like, “or as spiritual people put it “directly experiencing reality without all our concepts and labels, truly nondual”. Whatever that means, but it’s the answer I get.”
I said it is meaningless. Lausten said it’s meaningless. You say it’s meaningless.
Now that you’ve seen the light, why are you continually going back into the darkness looking for meaning in the meaningless? Seeking knowledge is a very honorable thing to do. Don’t squander your search by forever beating a dead imaginary horse.
If I were a religious exorcist, I’d have a ceremony to cast those vile ‘fake philosophy demons’ out. But I’m a rational exorcist, so I’m limited to using words typed into a computer- this is much less exciting, but it has the advantage of actually working sometimes.
Except I can’t say that it is meaningless, because apparently there is something there, and that something apparently gives these people such a peace that it’s unshakable. Like the above link and when it comes to Zen Koans. They claim it’s to break your mind of false thinking habits so you can see reality as it truly is. That all is one and one is all, that you are the world and the world is you, that something is both destroyed and not destroyed and that all things are lost eventually.
Unless someone can give me a reason to respond to that then I can’t really say much else. I mean even science can confirm that Buddism changes people when they check their brain waves and create scans. Isn’t that proof that there is something to it all.
I’m not sure what you are even asking for “give me a reason to respond to that”, what kind of a request is that? Why do you need a reason to respond?
Anyway, I don’t know if I’ve ever seen someone take something beautiful like a Zen Koan and turn it into something that upsets them. To take something that is intended to bring peace of mind and turn it in to an obsession to find reality as it truly is or something.
This is a teaching of radical impermanence. It’s the essence of Buddhism: nothing lasts, everything passes as soon as it arises, because in reality there never have been any separate things. Everything is radically connected. Things arise and cease together, as one.This teaching is not intended to be an actual physical model of a multi-verse that, if understood, will show you your place in it. It's a reflection on how you are just a part of something that will end, and will then begin, and somewhere else in some other time, something like you will be asking the same questions and there's nothing to do or say or be worried about that, it just is what is. Koans are designed to inspire thoughts, not answer cosmological questions.
And I still haven’t decided if you are being honest. When you say something like “it’s unshakeable” it sounds a lot like some trolls who were hanging around here a few years ago. One of them finally relented and said they realized they were being ridiculous, but that could have just been more of their long con. If you really want to know what life is about, go feed some homeless people, go help some people in the flood zones, go climb a mountain or just read a book.
Yes Xian, read a book or climb a mountain or help someone in need. Do something… anything… that gives meaning to your life. Looking for it outside of yourself can never work. You give your life meaning by your choices and actions.
Go do something beneficial- to the entire world, or just one neglected kitten, it doesn’t matter- and you will see your state of mind improve. Do it enough and you won’t look for meaning because you will be experiencing it every day.
Xian, , your ‘answers’ will never get better than the questions you ask yourself. Stop self-limiting yourself. What about the universe inside of you waiting to blossom. :- |
Reposting the following, simply because i wanted to roll those words around a little more.
I like them because they resonate with honesty and my own experiences.
3point14rat writes: "If I were a religious exorcist, I’d have a ceremony to cast those vile ‘fake philosophy demons’ out. But I’m a rational exorcist, so I’m limited to using words typed into a computer- this is much less exciting, but it has the advantage of actually working sometimes."
"Yes Xian, read a book or climb a mountain or help someone in need. Do something… anything… that gives meaning to your life. Looking for it outside of yourself can never work. You give your life meaning by your choices and actions.
Go do something beneficial- to the entire world, or just one neglected kitten, it doesn’t matter- and you will see your state of mind improve. Do it enough and you won’t look for meaning because you will be experiencing it every day."
Thanks Citizen’.
I sometimes feel like a fraud, because I say those things and then go home and waste an hour on Facebook or watching YouTube or wasting time some other way. I honestly believe what I write, I just don’t always have the self-discipline to follow through on it.
I’m way better at telling people how to live than actually doing it. Hopefully revealing my hypocrisy doesn’t ruin what I say.
Yes Xian, read a book or climb a mountain or help someone in need. Do something… anything… that gives meaning to your life. Looking for it outside of yourself can never work. You give your life meaning by your choices and actions.Go do something beneficial- to the entire world, or just one neglected kitten, it doesn’t matter- and you will see your state of mind improve. Do it enough and you won’t look for meaning because you will be experiencing it every day.
There is no meaning in life, nothing can give your life meaning because meaning is something that we fabricate in our own minds. Things only have meaning is you give it to them, which is essentially living a lie. I live my life trying to be “correct” and that might entail the reality that meaning doesn’t truly exist (in the existential sense I guess) and Buddhism says the same with “value” being imaginary and that nothing is “worth it”.
Help is also a matter of perspective and in some way or another subjective. Does help mean that someone feels better after the fact or does it involve some degree of pain that they have to undergo before they can find relief, like cutting an addict off from their drugs? Even that last bit can be interpreted many different ways.
From what I have gathered, to live honestly might involve not believing in the things that most people do. That to be a part of society might be to live a lie. The lie of a separate self, that of cities, of meaning, of value. From what I have read, reality outside our minds doesn’t have any of that. Cities are just buildings, value isn’t real and neither is meaning. Maybe the self is just a tool created by the brain for survival and it doesn’t really exist. I don’t really know, but from what they say I haven’t heard any half decent counter arguments.
Anyway, I don’t know if I’ve ever seen someone take something beautiful like a Zen Koan and turn it into something that upsets them. To take something that is intended to bring peace of mind and turn it in to an obsession to find reality as it truly is or something.That's the point of a Koan though, it's not meant to bring peace in the conventional sense but to upend what you know to be so. It sows discord.
This teaching is not intended to be an actual physical model of a multi-verse that, if understood, will show you your place in it. It’s a reflection on how you are just a part of something that will end, and will then begin, and somewhere else in some other time, something like you will be asking the same questions and there’s nothing to do or say or be worried about that, it just is what is. Koans are designed to inspire thoughts, not answer cosmological questions.Except that it is in a sense. If you read the whole thing it's kind of unsettling, like not really caring if people "die" because death is a "myth", hence that part about the sinking ship. Sounds psychotic in a sense to me. It's not a reflection on you as a part, because there are no parts. It's not really meant to provoke thought but rather to destroy it.
"There is no meaning in life, nothing can give your life meaning because meaning is something that we fabricate in our own minds. Things only have meaning is you give it to them, which is essentially living a lie. Blah blah, blah. Blah, blah blah. Blah blah blah blah. Blah blah"You sound like a real hoot to hang out with.
When you are on a sinking ship, as we all are, you don’t want to be fighting with all the other passengers, making a bad situation worse. You want to be hugging and kissing as the ship goes down. It can be a beautiful moment.Above is the "sinking ship" bit from your link. It comes right after what I quoted before and supports it, but you manage to take it and make something terrible. As far as I can tell, you do want to fight with all the other passengers. You want to make it worse. You want to take our ability to create meaning and call it a lie. I could say a lot more, but I'd just be feeding your desire to fight.
You sound like a real hoot to hang out with.Generally knowing some things tends to make people avoid you. I'd rather live the lie but I can't.
Above is the “sinking ship” bit from your link. It comes right after what I quoted before and supports it, but you manage to take it and make something terrible. As far as I can tell, you do want to fight with all the other passengers. You want to make it worse. You want to take our ability to create meaning and call it a lie. I could say a lot more, but I’d just be feeding your desire to fight.That is actually not what it's getting at. It means that rather than try to fight to live one should just let everyone die. The ship is sinking and no one is doing anything about it or trying to help. It's essentially consigning people to oblivion, the way the passengers are acting could be called psychotic or at the very least crazy. It doesn't support your claim either, it's more like two completely different thoughts that don't link.
I’m not making it worse, buddhism itself calls meaning a lie. Another illusion our minds make up. That’s why they call value something that doesn’t exist. Meaning doesn’t exist just because someone says so, and they argue that the imaginary value we give things is what causes suffering. You are literally defending the very thing that wants to take meaning.
I can’t take away what never truly existed. As he said before, there are no parts, no individuals, because no one truly existed. That tends to make me not see people or animals but some grey “mass”. That’s what they get at. I read the whole thing so I know it’s not really positive (even if they think it is).
At least you actually made some points this time.
You are literally trying to find a way to change the course of the entire universe. What forces of nature should we be fighting against? Entropy? Death? I understand the fight for survival, when you need to what’s necessary to get to the next moment, but that fight is not constant, we get lots of moments with each other in between. You aren’t seeing what’s right in front of you, just grey. There’s no way Buddhism says that.
You’re contradicting yourself too, aren’t you? Saying it is psychotic to fight against the sinking ship then saying there is nothing to fight for.
If there are two ways of looking at life, and one makes you happy and productive and an inspiration to others, while the other causes you angst and makes you feel sad and insignificant, then choose the first.
It’s like you have only two hats and have to wear one. Hat ‘A’ is comfortable, keeps the sun out of your eyes, keeps you warm and dry, and makes you look good. Hat ‘B’ is heavy and uncomfortable, has an ad for hemorrhoid cream on it, looks stupid, and doesn’t block the sun or keep you dry when it rains.
You, for reasons that escape me, insist on wearing hat ‘B’, then complain endlessly about how you hate wearing it.
Changing mindsets isn’t easy, but you at least need to make an effort.
I’m not kidding when I say you should go out and start helping people or animals or just generally be a good citizen of your community. No one can ‘think’ their way to happiness, it’s an active process that you need to participate in. If you’re completely antisocial or have anxiety being around people, volunteer to walk dogs or go out and pick-up garbage at a playground.
Sitting in front of your computer is not only not the solution, it’s likely exacerbating the problem. Get up and activate your mind with positive thoughts and productive actions.
I just started reading the book “Sapiens”. I won’t attempt a book report, but it starts with the history of humans, how we formed tribes and when our brains grew to where they are now. This seems to be left out of Xian’s analysis. Of course we live in a world constructed by all the people who came before us. If not, we’d still be running around in the wilderness with a pointed stick. Why or how this all happened is a long discussion. Xian is chucking all that and dismissing it as a lie.
I talked to a guy who really recommended that book. I then read some online reviews, and they were mixed: some thought it was brilliant and loved it, while others saw pretty big gaps and unsupported assertions. The criticisms were all very similar, so I have no doubt they are real. I think this book, more than most, depends on the readers expectations when picking it up, to determine whether they will like it or not.
Let me know your opinion when you finish it.
I’m going to jump into the Shannara books soon, so it will be a while before I’m looking for a new book to read.
You are literally trying to find a way to change the course of the entire universe. What forces of nature should we be fighting against? Entropy? Death? I understand the fight for survival, when you need to what’s necessary to get to the next moment, but that fight is not constant, we get lots of moments with each other in between. You aren’t seeing what’s right in front of you, just grey. There’s no way Buddhism says that.I am seeing what's in front of me and that is what Buddhism says. Essentially they argue that death is a myth and how later on the path you won't see yourself as a body, or a son or a father. By getting rid of no-self there isn't anyone to save or to help, so that's why they can use an analogy of a sinking ship. They don't help others survive but more like forget they are sinking and just let them die because "it's going to happen anyway" (impermanence). The roll of impermanence leads to a pretty cold view of compassion.
If there are two ways of looking at life, and one makes you happy and productive and an inspiration to others, while the other causes you angst and makes you feel sad and insignificant, then choose the first.It’s like you have only two hats and have to wear one. Hat ‘A’ is comfortable, keeps the sun out of your eyes, keeps you warm and dry, and makes you look good. Hat ‘B’ is heavy and uncomfortable, has an ad for hemorrhoid cream on it, looks stupid, and doesn’t block the sun or keep you dry when it rains.
You, for reasons that escape me, insist on wearing hat ‘B’, then complain endlessly about how you hate wearing it.
Changing mindsets isn’t easy, but you at least need to make an effort.
I’m not kidding when I say you should go out and start helping people or animals or just generally be a good citizen of your community. No one can ‘think’ their way to happiness, it’s an active process that you need to participate in. If you’re completely antisocial or have anxiety being around people, volunteer to walk dogs or go out and pick-up garbage at a playground.
Except this isn’t a “hat” but the truth about reality. It doesn’t matter which makes you happy, I don’t want to live a lie and pretend a lot of things. Pretending that meaning exists when it really doesn’t, and that value is pretty much arbitrary.
What you seem to miss is choosing between living the truth or a lie, yet you want to frame it as being happy or unhappy. Your first option is a lie rooted in illusion (at least from what Eastern philosophy says of it). The second, while harsh, is the truth. Volunteering only made me feel that way because I projected qualities onto it that it didn’t have (a la Buddhism). So if I strip it off all the notions I have of it (or cleansing the false mind of pictures like the Broward meditation said to) it becomes meaningless and no different than harming people.
As much as I want to go back can’t just keep pretending value is something that is real or that one thing is better than another. Objectively they aren’t.