@W4u - The past four and a half billion years of evolution unfolding on this planet are only an extension of an event that began 13.8 billion years ago, with the self-organization of fundamental elements on which all of physical reality rests.
But they are the extension where biology emerged, and where awareness, then consciousness, emerged!
What happened beyond will always belong to the intellectual world of conjecture. It’s only bearing on our lives, is that it built the fundamental components and rules that ultimately created us - something that required our Earth to be created. What about understand our planet’s history and biology?
@W4u - Wait a minute, that does not follow at all. On the contrary, I believe what you call mind candy (understanding the past) actually enhances appreciation of the physical reality that we are witnessing in the present.
It's all in the dose! A little bit of booze enlightens, too much booze makes drunk and stupid.
When it blinds people to the physical biological reality unfolding up this planet we depend on, which it does too, too often - it’s a monstrosity! IMO.
@W4u - Are you saying Plato, Socrates, Pythagoras, Galileo, Newton were merely speculating ?
Are you saying they weren't conjectures - until physical evidence provided overwhelming supporting evidence.
Didn’t they all have plenty of ideas that went into the trash bin with time?
@W4u - All my propositions rest on the logic of the old and modern scientists. ... Anything wrong with that?
I appreciate that. When I used "IMO", I was thinking "In Their Opinion" with all the emphasis on "opinion". When actual physical witnessing and measurements are impossible, it will always be a matter of opinion, supported by arguments. Yes, the very complex math used by the geniuses, never rise above learned opinion. Look at how String Theory has worked out. Decades of talk and math, but nothing concrete, with experts of equal qualifications saying it's garbage and others claiming it still hold promise as the salvation of physics. And when they get down to brass tacks they'll admit me have no way of 'knowing', never will.
I’m not even knocking the speculation, genius mathematics and philosophers that don’t know one end of a shove from another, need to be kept occupied some way. But, allowing that to blind us to what’s happening upon this planet will turn out to be our damnation. It more a question of priorities, yesterday’s heaven or the biological physical reality we exist within.
@W4u - I like Plato for his imaginary Platonic solids on which physical reality is founded
"upon which physical reality is founded" - seriously? Let me suggest another perspective on what Plato founded:
... imaginary Platonic solids on with our western intellectual reality is founded
When I think about Platonic imaginary perfection, I see another perfect example of 'being lost within one's own mindscape'. What he did seems to me an extension of our human expectation for a perfect God On High! People seeking some imaginary perfection that simply does not exist within physical reality. But that many still cling to.
Cue, Sabine Hossenfelder, a real physicist.
@W4u - I like Tegmark’s Mathematical Universe because it solves so much of the mystery of the universal dynamics and points to a guiding equation that may eventually explain why it all works .
"May eventually explain", this is what I'm talking about, the human conceit to fancy we're capable of absolute understanding, just like that perfect god we long for. How do humans come to "define" a systems with a nearly infinite layers within layers of complexity? How could one species even presume to take in the whole of what's unfolding.
Particular when we are talking about Earth and organism of infinity complexity, wrapped within folds upon fold of increasing intricate complexity, all unfolding and changing one moment at a time leading to the next moment.
@W4u - and why evolution from simple to complex patterns is a logical process, without mystery and magic
Are you claiming that the various processes of the Universe and Earth's Evolution don't already demonstrate plenty of logical process??
What’s are we lacking?
What’s wrong with a touch of mystery, as for magic, that’s a human crutch, best to do without, but when in need, who’s to judge? I mean a sense of magic is a beautiful thing and the better we get to learn about the organisms that inhabit this planet the more beautiful and mysterious and magical it can seem. Nothing wrong with acknowledging that and being aware of it.
The real issue here is, how we keep our bearings. Do we recognize that divide between our own mental image produced by our mind in conjunction with others, and the physical reality we interact with constantly.
I am angry at all this hairy fairy speculating about the dawn of time, because it used as an excuse not to look down and strive to understand this physical planet that provides our life support system and that we are destroying in a mad rush that is breathtaking to those with an appreciation for history and the eye to see what’s unfolding upon our planet, Earth, you could even say Mother Earth. F’ the heavens!!! We have a problem down here and so few are in the slightest prepared. And I’m talking spiritually, intellectually, we’re (we as in our whole society) too busy showing off to each other - to notice the important shit. I’m not trying to harsh you, it’s the whole I’m railing against. I appreciate you taking the time to respond. I’m sure going to use it to try and explain myself, hopefully not pissing off others too much.
@W4u. I just like to look at what makes all this tick, without needing to resort to a motivated supernatural being that created this planet only for humans to enjoy, damned be the rest.
That one's unbecoming, in a gaslighting sort of way.
WHERE HAVE I EVER INVOKED MOTIVATED SUPERNATURAL BEINGS ?
The closest I get is acknowledging that supernatural beings and shadow plays have always been humanity’s way of reconciling reality with our dreams and experiences.
It is a simply psychological reality, one that we should acknowledge, and that there’s nothing wrong with embracing it.
If that’s what one needs.
The key point is recognizing that our religious, spiritual, intellectual, mathematical experience COMES FROM WITHIN US, the biological being.
It is not a “truth” bestowed from on high.
Understand that this is little me, with my finite brain, limited by my learning and living, whatever it turned out to be. Still, my body is my tool for making sense of the things out there. The reality that just is, Physical Reality, after all, humanity is just the final few seconds in Earth’s 24hr. timeline.
Too many don’t appreciate how much this Earth and her creatures have to teach us. Too many hide behind religion and physical philosophy/math, same different to my mind. And it’s all so obsessively ego-centric. Thus we find ourselves destroying this beautiful biosphere, along with our children’s future. How did so many miss that??? They just didn’t care? Too busy dreaming of flying to Mars or becoming a celeb, or imagining the ultimate truth be it magic or math about the earliest moment in the universe and beyond.
Sorry about the derision, but escapism is escapism. I’ve loved learning about all that to, but what happened to the pragmatic real world thinking? We’re destroying our planet’s biosphere, and there’s been nothing but derision, in spirit and action, towards that biosphere’s reality. Evolution has so much important stuff to teach us about everything that really matters like climate and landscapes and biosphere and ocean, etc. But, nothing but dismissal, derision, disregard for “mother” Earth. Which is where my allegiance is.
I’ll keep saying it, because it’s a key to better appreciating ourselves and the mess we’ve created. I figure some will get it, with time.
Appreciating the divide between our Human Mindscape ~ Physical Reality
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Huge Price: The question is whether these features are actual realities of the physical world or artificial constructs of human mentality.
Seems to me the very definition of this getting lost within one's own mindscape, that I write of. ?
I’m not even knocking it, just appreciate it for what it is. Personally, I’d much rather talk Solms, Damasio, or now Tim White, listening to Pattison’s ‘Fossil Man’ - fun stuff.
Cheers and thanks for the conversation, hope you don’t mind me returning the volley.
