Does everything seem like bullying or "Tough Guy Responses" to you?
No, not everything seems that way to me. Just bullying and "Tough Guy Responses".
There's other people on here who have well reasoned and rational viewpoints and opinions.
Agreed.
These aren't "Tough Guy Responses".
Well, that's a matter of opinion.
Suggesting that a guy who has given up so much for the good of his country is a coward-- just because he doesn't follow this heroic act by voluntarily turning himself in for decades of imprisonment--seems kind of, I don't know, judgmental. It just comes across (to me) like one of those right-wing "Tough Guy Responses" to things.
You don't have to agree, but surely you can see where I'm coming from.
You don't have to agree, but surely you can see where I'm coming from.
No Bug, I can't see where you're coming from.
If someone stole your car and you called the police, would you consider yourself calling the police a "Tough Guy Response"?
Suggesting that a guy who has given up so much for the good of his country is a coward—just because he doesn’t follow this heroic act by voluntarily turning himself in for decades of imprisonment—seems kind of, I don’t know, judgmental. It just comes across (to me) like one of those right-wing “Tough Guy Responses" to things.
No, it's a more pragmatic way to make his point that a wrong has been committed. By hiding, he lessens the impact of outing the illegal activity. And people who commit high profile acts must realize that they WILL be judged by the court of public opinion. Surely a man as intelligent as Snowden planned his course of action before he released the info. He should realize how his behavior plays out in the media and how the American people would view his actions. It was IMO a bad play on his part.
Can't Jack
Depression is not an attitude problem. It's not something caused by thinking errors and it's certainly not "anger turned inward" (although I suppose it can be, and some therapists seem to heavily promote these concepts).
Whoa! Slow down! Most types of depression CAN be treated with behavior therapy. I know in my case, antidepressants didn't do me any good at all.
What I'm saying is, in reference to the original topic, it's probably NOT a good idea to tell people "things will be better in the next world", because a really depressed person will not want to wait! I remember when I was at my lowest point, I was all set to commit suicide. The only thing that stopped me was realizing that throwing away the ONLY life you have, even if it's a miserable one, is NOT a rational decision. If I had thought for one second that there was an afterlife, there's no doubt in my mind that I would have gone ahead and done it.
You don’t have to agree, but surely you can see where I’m coming from.
Yes, BR, I do see where you (and many others) are coming from. I understand and can appreciate your views although I do have a bit milder version of Vy’s position. And, on the other side:
Quoting Vyazma:
If someone stole your car and you called the police, would you consider yourself calling the police a “Tough Guy Response"?
No, but I would probably think, “I’m going to string the S.OB. up if I can catch him” is a tough guy response. :lol:
Occam
Regarding Snowden, I've posted it before if he wants to make his statement more effective he should accept Kerry's offer and come home. He'll have to face prosecution but surely he thought of that before he broke his cover and dumped state secrets out for all to see. As it stands now many Americans, including the Congess have branded him a traitor. He should, as Sec. Kerry said, "man up" and face the music instead of hiding in a country previously hostile to his own.
Cap't Jack
I have a hard time with this "tough guy" line of reasoning. I readily acknowledge that Snowden ending up in Russia makes him an easy target for criticism. Definitely not a politically savvy move--although it's not like he had much choice where he ended up. Beggars can't be choosers.
But coming home to America to make his case seems more foolish than brave. It would basically guarantee that he'd spend at least the next couple of decades in Federal prison. It's not a fight he could win legally, no matter how much in the moral right he is.
How did it work out for Bradley Manning? Not too well. He's basically never been given the opportunity to publicly "make his case" to the American people. Instead, he rotted in inhumane isolation conditions under suicide watch for a year or so before even going to trial. And now, he's rotting in Federal prison, and the mainstream media has more or less forgotten about him.
The U.S. Government isn't going to give any whistle blowers the chance to have a "hero moment".
You're right. It's more important for the government to save face thanmto keep its promises. Snowden should stay out of the US until an incontrovertible pardon is signed, sealed and delivered. Anything less would allow the government to reneg on any promise or deal. They have proven that they think the government is above the law and won't be held to any promise it makes.
Lois
You don't have to agree, but surely you can see where I'm coming from.
No Bug, I can't see where you're coming from.
If someone stole your car and you called the police, would you consider yourself calling the police a "Tough Guy Response"?
No, that would just be common sense. And it would be morally justifiable. And I don't see how that's in any way analogous to the Snowden situation.
If I blew the whistle on nefarious acts that my government was doing, and I knew that the only way to avoid decades of imprisonment (and by extension, being silenced) was to take refuge in some crappy Eastern European country, I'd opt for the crappy Eastern European country. Explain to me what's cowardly about that.
Was Princess Leia a coward for not turning herself in to the Galactic Empire after stealing the plans to the Death Star? I think not. Turning herself in would have been idiotic. Taking refuge with the Rebel Alliance was just common sense, and not the least bit cowardly.
But I'm sure there were citizens of the Empire that thought she should "man up", turn herself in, and make her case to an Imperial Court. Those citizens would, in my opinion, be engaging in fallacious "tough guy" thinking.
No, that would just be common sense. And it would be morally justifiable. And I don't see how that's in any way analogous to the Snowden situation.
Would it be morally justifiable because we are nation of laws?
Also I don't equate the US with the Star Wars Empire. You do? You think it's anything close to that?
You're right. It's more important for the government to save face thanmto keep its promises. Snowden should stay out of the US until an incontrovertible pardon is signed, sealed and delivered. Anything less would allow the government to reneg on any promise or deal. They have proven that they think the government is above the law and won't be held to any promise it makes.
Lois
I agree that he should wait until he is guaranteed a pardon before returning to the U.S. Sadly, there is no way in hell that will ever happen. :-(
No, that would just be common sense. And it would be morally justifiable. And I don't see how that's in any way analogous to the Snowden situation.
Would it be morally justifiable because we are nation of laws?
No, it would be morally justifiable because stealing is wrong and punishing the thief acts as a deterrent to other thieves, which makes society a better place overall.
As for being a nation of laws, I believe people should generally follow society's laws, even ones they disagree with, because a society without law and order is chaos. That being said, there are times when laws should be broken, particularly in when it is the only way to uncover great wrongdoings by the powers that be.
Also I don't equate the US with the Star Wars Empire. You do? You think it's anything close to that?
Well, analogies aren't usually perfect. The point of my analogy was not to compare the U.S. with the Galactic Empire. It was to compare Snowden's situation with Princess Leia's. Granted, the good Princess would likely face a much worse fate than Snowden if she turned herself in, but that's completely beside the point. The point is that turning oneself in in such a situation would be senseless and counterproductive.
Also, I thought it would be funny to bring Star Wars into this discussion.
Also, I thought it would be funny to bring Star Wars into this discussion.
Yeah, big fan myself.
We're way off topic. Advocotus wanted to get back on topic a few posts back.
We can take this over to the Snowden thread..but I'm not racing over there.
Peace out.
You're right. It's more important for the government to save face thanmto keep its promises. Snowden should stay out of the US until an incontrovertible pardon is signed, sealed and delivered. Anything less would allow the government to reneg on any promise or deal. They have proven that they think the government is above the law and won't be held to any promise it makes.
Lois
I agree that he should wait until he is guaranteed a pardon before returning to the U.S. Sadly, there is no way in hell that will ever happen. :-(
Then he shoukd stay where he is and try to make a life there unless he can find another, more amenable country to allow him to enter and stay. There are worse things than living in Russia.. Being railroaded into prison in the US for many years by a lying and shameless government is one of them.
Lois