So it sounds like your question is NOT the difficult one, How do I do the right thing (or define myself as someone who does the right thing).
Instead your question is a trivial one, namely How do I pick a way, any way, to act, regardless of whether it’s right or wrong.
Kinda shallow if you ask me. I am definitely glad you, and me too, lean the way we do, just wish there was something more to it than just rolling the dice and hoping in the end our way was the right way.
And who can judge you except yourself? To forgive yourself is the hardest thing to do.
So . . . . . what’s difficulty level have to do with it? -
Besides “defining oneself to oneself” is still something a great many (if not most) people spend most their lives struggling with, so don’t just trivialize it so easily.
How does that relate to what I wrote?
Specifically, please share your train-of-thought so I can understand how you got from the fundamentals of Earth Centrism to “doing the right thing”?
Living my life is about “doing the right” one day leading into the the next.
This isn’t about that, this is about "holy wow, where did this body I’m being carried around come from and what the hell is this (these) voice(s) that’s constantly chattering away inside of me? Where do I go when I sleep? etc.
Is it that, I didn’t add a moral code, or some Ten Commandments to live by, is that what bothers you?
If so, please explain that, so I know what your concern is.
Well, yeah there is that, but turns out Einstein was dead wrong and play dices is exactly what “God” at least “Life” is all about.
Perhaps that’s the deep challenge, finding your way through that uncertain reality, can’t do that with idealism, need realism and pragmatism with idealism saved for romantic moments worth cherishing.
There’s the advantage of being a poor boy, I’m used to no guarantees, and I’m satisfied with less and find contentment within myself, rather than all the Stuff’n Toys I can clutter up around myself.
But I still stand what I wrote.
My point is, one can attach any meaning to one’s life, build any foundation of personal contentment one wants. That’s what’s trivial. The bigger question is, how do you know it’s the “right” meaning? Someone could get personal spiritual satisfaction, say, from killing others. That’s their meaning in life and they live a fulfilled life because for example they’re always hunting animals, shooting people, etc. Or a little less dramatic…they could be presidential level con men who think nothing’s wrong with ripping off poor people to increase their own wealth, pay for legal fees, etc. (you know who I’m talking about, and his ilk).
And that’s why I said it’s pretty trivial. The bigger question is, how can we, in a materialist worldview, determine that the scenario I just described is evil? I think it is, I’m sure most of us on this forum do too. But on what basis other than “gee I just prefer it” or “gee I just don’t like that scenario”. And I’m strictly talking about in a world with no mythological god.
I don’t know the answer. “Because it’s in the bible” is obviously not an answer.
It’s unfair not to include the intro to those lines
Not sure why you dismiss that as trivial?
In the end, each of us must find our own story.
Some simply do better at it than others.
As for your question: “My point is, one can attach any meaning to one’s life,” of course.
Each of us must decide for ourselves how much or little our lives will “mean” to us.
Catholics all believe in a personal god, who’s concerned about them,
yet every catholic is actually talking to their own personal God,
tailored by each’s own ego (strengths and weakness).
Are you calling that trivial?
I’m thinking it’s just how people are.
There is no ultimate “right” answer, everyone lives a slightly different life,
so we see slightly different things, it’s profound & gutter dumb self-evidence.
We are humans, born of womb and raised in a family, then you become a member of society.
“how do you know it’s the “right”” the community you are a part of will let you know and that’s a very different question then making sense out of different voice that are constantly happening within your head, on so many different levels it’s wild.
{Think about it: when you interact with different people; mom, dad, this or that siblings, friends, someone who shares a secret, your boss, employee, misc walking down the street meeting beggar or dandy, - I only know myself, but I feel confident I’m typical of most all people, in each circumstance I behave differently. It’s not just facade, each situation has a different story and expectations.}
I’m talking about how I view my own human condition.
Not how to behave, that’s part of something else, something I figured decades ago and have striven to abide by for decades.
I’m talking about the fact and wonder of my existence and my ability to absorb information and arrive at my own conclusions, and then compare that will the general thinking, and now at 67, at ‘how various ideas and claims aged’
This world itself, what is it, what does it mean. When I was a kid always loved traveling and I always had my head glued to the window and I was always looking at the landscape, absorbing it as best I could and think about and so many question, all the variety. Up to 13 my travels round Chicago, cool geological formations here and there, but not that much. Then the drive to California and the Sierra and I was gobsmacked, how did all that happened. It’s taken decades, but now I understand how it happen and why certain formations are found here and not there. Technical details, I’m sketchy, but general understanding of rock formation, gemstone formation, Plate tectonics, the amazing world of erosion and deposition, and water flowing through the subsurface my ever more staggering means.
Those questions have been answered in my mindscape. I can explain it to others and I know were to hand off, for sources with meat & potatoes for accurate detailed facts, that is authoritative sources of information of the topic of interest. That seemed really important to me and I did my homework and digesting and then some more homework.
I’m not trying to convince anyone, like some lawyer peddling a cause.
If one’s life is embedded within a lifetime of seeing God a some universal personal superpower, and that your live is all about getting into heaven rather than hell for all of eternity, after I die. Then I got nothing for ya, not even trying.
Morals and living ethics would be part of a totally different discussion, which I’d be ready to engage in, but it’s a separate discussion from this “Earth Centrism” “Appreciation Human Mindscape ~ Physical Reality divide” gem I’m working on.
I’m sharing (what I’m striving to be a quality distillation of the lessons I’ve learned), because I believe there are people out there who think pretty much the same but haven’t had the opportunity to tie together the loose ends.
Now that I’m this far might as well admit, I believe I can save younger people years of wasted time, I got no answers, but I have important observations worth chewing on. That friend, do with it as you may.
Yes it is, Just listen to Ricky Gervais in this revelatory clip.
I could speak to the killer example with something about human flourishing, but the modern challenge is choosing between accountancy and construction worker. Even the farmer can feel disconnected from the land. Finding harmony, and comfort, when you know your actions affect people on the other side of the globe is nearly impossible.
I wish I had that optimism. I don’t think I have anything other than the ancient wisdom of finding your own path, listening to the voices in the wind, golden or platinum rule, et al.
I posted that “Consider The Lobster” link last week, with the trivial comment about tourism, but there’s a much more poignant discussion in there about pain. We can’t feel each other’s pain, but we know it’s there because we experience pain ourselves. The ethical discussion is, should we care about the pain of the animals that we eat? This leads to interpreting the meaning of a lobster fighting to get out of a boiling pot of water. Is that just instinct? Does it have existential angst about it’s own existence? Is it thinking about it’s mother at that time? So much philosophy to cover.
Humans can report about their pain in much more detail, but we still know very little about what others feel. We know there are wide differences in how people deal with the same amount of pain. This is the basis for meaning, to me. We evolved to avoid pain, and got good at it, so we have time to think about increasing pleasure, and we know our pleasures are connected to others, and the more we know the more we find how interconnected we are. That leads to caring not just of other people, for some selfish reason like they can protect from us harm, but to caring for the entire planet.
I guess we’re talking about two different things then. For everything you’ve said, there are people who have the exact opposite belief. You believe in some earth-centric-mindscape thingy. Great. Christians believe in some personal god thingy. Great. What matters is how you act on those beliefs. Having this or that personal belief is easy, that’s why I say it’s trivial. The more important thing is, how do we know which beliefs are true? Maybe the answer is, we don’t, we can’t, and you just have to act on what you believe and hope for the best. But even that is vague. The anti-choice people feel restricting women’s freedom is best if it leads to babies not being aborted. Are you okay with that? Afterall, they’re acting on the own personal beliefs, just like you.
No, it’s not that I have a faith in a something “thingy”.
I’m looking at cold stone sober physical facts and what we do with the knowledge that offers us. It’s about processing the actual factual physical facts in an interpersonal/visceral manner.
Of course, one could play the super cynic and dismiss scientific knowledge outright a some imaginary thingy - so that fossils and DNA and our knowledge of the microcosm are on a equal footing with the Bible.
In that case : sure, you win!
It’s all a joke and life don’t mean nothing and it’s all about what you can personally imagine.
No argument.
Next.
For me personally so far as writing and speaking about it, it’s about sharing, not defending, beyond defining misunderstandings.
Hell my whole point is that it’s a digestion and distillation of the actual factual evidence, no meta-physics, no skyhooks (a la Dennett), no universal god/power beyond physics. It’s about connecting with that on a visceral level strong enough to make one impervious to the self-certainty and self-righteousness spell of God-fearing believers with all their attacks and imputations and sense of superiority.
I’ll let the comedians try to reason with them.
In the final analysis I appreciate this won’t make sense to everyone. It requires a certain prerequisite understanding of Evolution and science for it to begin to make sense.
At this point, I’m only interested in finding those with a predisposition, with whom this already resonates. I’ve been visiting the local college Philosophy Club meetings and nothing restores a little faith and hope as listening to some curious, intelligent, even passionate kids in action.
Well in my case, because they are observation based. Actual Factual Physical Reality based.
Both through my own personal experiencing and learning, but also through the global scientific community of experts. Because these scientists are quite active at keeping the public up to date on their new findings and the understanding that’s led to.
I do trust in that, over the writings and beliefs of ancient tribesmen.
Okay, so now you are getting back to the relevance of my little:
If you think you create reality, okay.
If you believe reality creates you, then perhaps you should read it again and think about it a little more.
What the heck is that about? To me it seems pure gotcha.
I’m talking about distilling something out of the understanding that scientists have been teaching us about this planet that created us (that’s not a casual opinion - that is thoroughly resolved knowledge, even if no one dares put it that way, because they are so afraid of the Christofascist Vigilantes mobs coming down on them.)
I think the point is, they “got” a lot of people. The allure of belief is strong and rests on faith, a word you just used. Faith in science takes a few steps: knowing the process, seeing it work enough to accept it, knowing how to evaluate expert conclusions, and probably a couple others. We can’t all know everything.
[quote=“lausten, post:31, topic:9426”]
think the point is, they “got” a lot of people. The allure of belief is strong and rests on faith, a word you just used.
I believe CC calls this the “Abrahamic mindset”.
Sorry Lausten, my comment #29 was an installment affair and then Cuthbert’s made his comment and it derailed my thoughts onto his track.
So I copied your’s and put it aside to focus on my response to him.
I would think that holds true for all living creatures.
The drive towards rewards and the fleeing from danger, seeking their comfort zone.
We care about our families, even when they include animals, and a piece of land. It’s the inevitable fact of our kinship with other creatures and the whole Earth rather than just the landscape I’ve attached to, I dare say I’ve internalized it to an extent others haven’t.
Not that I pretend to be able to understand them, or communicate with them, nothing so grand. It’s a more simple realization and appreciation of our actual physical kinship, I need them to be here, and realization that their wants and needs aren’t fundamentally that different from mine and I belong to the same cycles, and will myself get munched up by others when my time comes, and I’m actually deep down spiritually okay with that cycle and a death that means the end of me, myself and I. I remember all the head trips religion tries to beat into us, and it’s so nice to be free of that. Why fear death? Which doesn’t mean being indifferent to it, I love life and believe I’ve embraced it with gusto.
Still, what can I say, endless deep sleep I never awake from doesn’t sound so bad after considering religion’s alternatives.
Also remember I see a cataclysm around the corner. Years? A decade? Who knows, it’s a somewhat chaotic system we’re within, so surprises will happen, both good and bad. But modern global society with its mega populations and economics and maintenance intensive infrastructure and maintenance intense transportation, realities as we know it, their days are numbered in the nearer term, sure as the sun will rise tomorrow.
When the dominoes really start falling, and the reservoirs run dry, modern living will surely collapse and most of us will wind up in the rubble. But there will be mornings after. And there will be areas more livable than others. And survivors will exist and carry on the way human survivors always have managed to do. They will have (heck, need to have) an entirely different outlook guiding their relationship with the natural forces that have become hostile and local resources as they may be available.
A reality that I’m convinced will require a return to respect for the need of honesty in assessing situations, something our society jettisoned when individuals started becoming little more than Consumer Units.
All of us need something deep in our gut that makes sense and gives us a reason for going on with our lives. This is how it all came together for me, while witnessing the final healthy days of a world hell bent on ignoring all the rules of sane sustainable living as if tomorrow didn’t matter.
Well for a long time it didn’t. But, no party lasts forever, even if the Siren’s sing tells us that it will.
I think it might be handy for my kind of people, whom I believe are out there.
Sure, “The allure of belief is strong and rests on faith” - but that’s only part of it.
Over the top domineering paternalist attitude toward the world; adherence to dualism’s simplistic over reach; ease with which assumptions are turned into self-certain assertions, even when physical evidence disputes said assertions; belief in a personal connection with a personal “almighty god”; seeing the Earth as a commodity to consume according to “god’s will”; mistaking their own EGO’s for God’s desires; and Earth as something to loath.
and so on . . .
You’ve internalized that by experiencing it. Many have not. Even people in small towns don’t know much about farming. Or how bridges get built. Or how much garbage is in the ocean.
What I learned from living on a farm is that we are related to other animals. They are our relatives, albeit distant, and they do have feelings. Yet humans still murder them and cannibalize, while denying that other animals have feelings, including and especially fear for their lives. They also said I read too much into the behaviours of those who were slaughtered for human barbaric cannibalism.
I believe many animals are much smarter than we give them credit for.
How many people know that bacteria already cmmunicate with each other.
That bees give clear directions where to find food when doing their “dance”.
Simple intelligence can be found everywhere in flora as well as fauna.
I am not sure that’s intelligence. Plants communicate also.
There are levels of intelligence starting with quasi-intelligent behaviors that are more reactive than proactive, but it takes no great imagination to see the evolutionary possibilities given sufficient raw materials and time.
Single cells can already acquire memory and cooperative behaviors . Mathematical behaviors are inherent in almost all patterned structures.
Regular patterns already emerged from the chaos in the earliest stages of the universe. A lot of people refuse to believe that nature itself could create such magnificent works of art that can be found in nature and assign them to an intelligent agency. But they overlook the power of the generic mathematics that create the guiding equations of invention.
There is a saying; “Natura Artis Magistra” . “Nature is the teacher of art and science”.
Ugg okay you continue to miss the point. I too trust what we can glean from science. However, there are plenty of people who don 't, and instead believe the writings, etc of ancient tribes, i.e. the bible, the koran, the torah, etc. And THOSE people currently have changed the course of the US, by working diligently to implement their beliefs in the US.
What I’m asking about is how can we determine that the science-based way, the materialist worldview way, is THE way to follow, vs the thumpers? Or do we just battle it out and hope for the best? We follow our way, they follow their way and hope that our way wins out in the end?
