Haiti

At what point does the government of Haiti, or other world governments, decide it’s time to have a mass migration of people out of Haiti to a safer location. They are so in the path of hurricanes that at some point someone with some authority has to wake up. Reminds me of some shtick Sam Kinison used to do. He was talking about all the starvation in Ethiopia, or some such African country. And his response was, Of course you’re starving, you live in a goddamn desert. Why don’t you move where there’s a McDonalds. It sounds cruel, but it also makes some sense.

Where are they going to go and who is going to pay for it?

I remember someone telling me that Sam Kinison joke. I was a the chairman of Students Against World Hunger at Indiana University. When they sent me mail they abbreviated it to “Stud Against World”.
I asked a similar question. It’s a common application of Western culture point of view to Southern Hemisphere reality. When we had the dust bowl, people loaded up the trucks and moved to California. That went well. That was people with money, healthy, job skills, same color, similar ancestry.

Where are they going to go and who is going to pay for it?
They can go just about anywhere. And it can be paid by the same sources that pay year after year after year for "Aid to Haiti after Hurricane X".

Although CuthbertJ’s idea is somewhat half baked, it’s something we might have to get used to. I’m thinking more about islands that are disappearing, as well as coastlines, but why not places that just don’t make sense for civilization? I would love to see us abandon private ownership of all potential flood zones, waterways, important habitats, etc. The biggest obstacle though it is the most expensive real estate in the world. And real estate is the basis of much of the world economy. Other than that…

Half baked? I don’t think he’s turned on the oven yet.
But you raise a good point. We will need to relocate millions of people in the near future, including many in our own country. The longer we delay planning the more expensive the relocation efforts and the more people will suffer and die before we face reality.

Other countries will build walls.
The idea is not half baked, the oven is not just off, the recipe is poisonous. See e.g. Willkommenskultur]. Unless people really open their hearts, and are prepared to really share their privileges, i.e. partially give them up, it will only activate people’s racist and fascist glands.

What made Kinison’s joke a joke is that he took the individual act of moving, something hard enough for a starving child, and applied it to a nation. The closest thing to that is moving a city, say to higher ground after constant flooding. But most people don’t realize our concept of nation-state was created by treaty in 1648, they think it is something that has always existed as it is, I mean, it’s in the Bible right? Wrong. And just like in 1648, when the Pope was declared just another nation, not someone who could authorize the king to go kill the heathens, we will need to change he idea that because you are born somewhere, you get certain privileges on the natural resources that are in and around there. Once you start thinking about how you get that because someone killed someone else 250 years ago, then enslaved some others, your argument for having those privileges starts to unravel.

Half baked? I don't think he's turned on the oven yet. But you raise a good point. We will need to relocate millions of people in the near future, including many in our own country. The longer we delay planning the more expensive the relocation efforts and the more people will suffer and die before we face reality.
Hold on Trump (defined as someone who contradicts himself in the same stream of thought). You say my idea is totally goofy, then in your next sentence you say "We will need to relocate millions...in the near future...". You just restated my point. Year after year billions of dollars flow into Haiti to assist in hurricane relief. At what point does someone say, enough is enough, let's figure out how to...in your own words, relocate people "out of the sand and next to a McDonalds" speaking figuratively.
At what point does someone say, enough is enough, let's figure out how to...in your own words, relocate people "out of the sand and next to a McDonalds" speaking figuratively.
Fortunately very few "someones" say, "let them die". When I'm asking for donations from people, I don't use that language, but on forums, I do. If we do nothing, we let them die. If we say, "why don't they move", we are the caricatured Marie Antoinette. You also ignore that in the Bush/Clinton years, we forced them to drop their tariffs on rice we sell to them. This destroyed local farming there. So, you are "half baked" in that you see a problem, but haven't considered the consequences of the solution you proposed. When we who use proportionately more resources speak in abstracts terms about "sustainability", what we are really saying is, we want to keep living like we do, but we know the whole world can't live this way. We are Guatama Buddha who was let out of his father's gated castle, except we see the poverty and don't go on a spiritual journey to rethink our ethics. We go back to the castle and say it's them who aren't thinking right.
Half baked? I don't think he's turned on the oven yet. But you raise a good point. We will need to relocate millions of people in the near future, including many in our own country. The longer we delay planning the more expensive the relocation efforts and the more people will suffer and die before we face reality.
Hold on Trump (defined as someone who contradicts himself in the same stream of thought). You say my idea is totally goofy, then in your next sentence you say "We will need to relocate millions...in the near future...". You just restated my point. Year after year billions of dollars flow into Haiti to assist in hurricane relief. At what point does someone say, enough is enough, let's figure out how to...in your own words, relocate people "out of the sand and next to a McDonalds" speaking figuratively. No, I didn't say your idea was totally goofy, I said it wasn't even half baked. That was after I asked a perfectly reasonable question about logistics and financing and you came back with an empty response. Saying "they can go just about anywhere" is not helpful at all, as GdB pointed out. Look at the resistance to taking in refugees in our own country. Do you really believe rednecks will suddenly turn compassionate when the UN our perhaps our own government starts moving large numbers of poor black people into their states? Sending aid money is a far different task and responsibility than moving people out of their homeland into foreign countries.

Looking at the news after Matthew passed Haiti and the Dominican Republic I think Cuthbert has the wrong idea. Latest reports confirm 842 dead in Haiti and four dead in the Dominican Republic. This is interesting because they are the same island separated by an artificial border, but the big difference is economic. The Dominican Republic is much more affluent than Haiti and the buildings are made to more stringent codes, if any codes even exist in Haiti. Instead of relocating Haitians the world should pool its resources and help the people build more disaster-proof homes, schools and businesses. This won’t happen, of course, because of tribalism.
Edit: fixed two typos

Other countries will build walls. The idea is not half baked, the oven is not just off, the recipe is poisonous. See e.g. Willkommenskultur]. Unless people really open their hearts, and are prepared to really share their privileges, i.e. partially give them up, it will only activate people's racist and fascist glands.
Given the rise of Nationalism and Xenophobia and absolutism doesn't look like that strategy has much of a future.
Other countries will build walls. The idea is not half baked, the oven is not just off, the recipe is poisonous. See e.g. Willkommenskultur]. Unless people really open their hearts, and are prepared to really share their privileges, i.e. partially give them up, it will only activate people's racist and fascist glands.
Given the rise of Nationalism and Xenophobia and absolutism doesn't look like that strategy has much of a future. You forgot racism.
Looking at the news after Matthew passed Haiti and the Dominican Republic I think Cuthbert has the wrong idea. Latest reports confirm 842 dead in Haiti and four dead in the Dominican Republic. This is interesting because they are the same island separated by an artificial border, but the big difference is economic. The Dominican Republic is much more affluent than Haiti and the building are made to more stringent codes, if any codes even exist in Haitians. Instead of relocating Haitians the world should pool its resources and help the people build more disaster-proof homes, schools and businesses. This won't happen, of course, because of tribalism.
+1

Agreed gdb. Darrin is right. To understand Haiti, it helps to look at their neighbor.

Haiti Isn’t Asking for US Intervention

This link above is to a piece from FAIR which also describes how the Haitians do not want the American imposed administration of Ariel Henry and are in revolt - it is not just some “gangs” - you can see how it contrasts with how it is being reported in Irish media and probably elsewhere in mainstream - there is a whole emphasis on sexual violence by out of control gangs to create disgust and immediate support for a “massive military intervention” from anyone at all - which reminds me of how Saddam’s troops were accused in western media of systematic rape and again how that repulsive architect of the destruction of Libya, Hillary Clinton kept being quoted in the media that Ghaddaffi was handing out viagra to his troops to rape the opposition towns - all exposed afterwards as lies but these people lie with total impunity. I have copied in some extracts from the Irish piece below for people to see but I’m sure there will be plenty of similar examples out there worldwide.

In fact it takes me back to the eighties when British sec services created this whole thing of the IRA gunman who had an orgasm as he pulled the trigger - once again aimed at creating disgust and revulsion among the population.

Now we see another example of people being shoved into supporting another invasion of Haiti on this same sexualised basis.

Here’s a couple of extracts from the Irish media report for comparison with the piece above at the link to the FAIR piece:

"…
The Horror of Haiti: Sexual violence and murder gangs as Ireland works on diplomatic solution

THE STREETS OF Port au Prince on the island of Haiti have descended into a barbaric campaign of systematic sexual violence and murder by heavily armed gangs.

Such is the catastrophic descent into anarchy that Irish diplomats based at the UN Security Council have found themselves at the centre of a major push towards a military intervention on the ground.

The Journal spoke this week to a source working on the ground in Haiti and to multiple sources with a knowledge of the behind the scenes work at the United Nations mission in New York.

Jimmy Chérizier is the leader of the biggest gang, G9 – he is a former police officer and is now leading the worst of the violence. He is ominously known as “Barbeque”.

A UN report has found that besides the violence and the systematic use of sexual violence against opponents the gangs are preventing fuel and aid supplies into Haiti.

This has seen a near famine level of hunger on the streets.

A source involved in security operations in the country has told The Journal that violence is a constant in Port au Prince with countless deaths of innocent people caught in the crossfire between the gangs as well as gun battles with police.

Such is the lack of supplies that people are now dying from hunger and thirst – there are also reports of a severe cholera outbreak as water sanitation has broken down.

The security source in the country said that moving around has now become almost impossible, with heavily armed convoys of military trained security involved.

The gangs, numbering between 95 separate groups, have taken up strategic positions on roadways.

“The aim of these gangs is to depose the Government of Ariel Henry but they are also looking to profit from the violence.

“It has always been crazy here, particularly in the wake of the earthquake in 2010 but it has now just gone to the point where it is at the worst state security wise.

“The only safe way in and out of Port au Prince is through the airport but there is no movement at the port because they have blockaded that.

“The entrance has armed people manning road checkpoints and they’ve blocked the road using large trucks,” a source said.

There are routes in via the adjoining Dominican Republic but these are said to be too unsafe to travel by road.

The gangs have attacked foreign aid agencies also with a Medecin Sans Frontiers (MSF) medical clinic reportedly coming under fire.

Cholera

An MSF Doctor, Luxamilda Jean-Louis, based in the city said that the past two weeks has seen a resurgence of cholera, having been declared cholera-free for over three years.

“Last week, a pregnant woman came to our hospital in Cité Soleil needing an emergency caesarean section. We tried to transfer her to a medical facility where she might find that kind of treatment, but she died.

“Whether it’s due to insecurity on the roads, or to health structures not functioning anymore, events like this happen every day in Port-au-Prince. The situation is so volatile that it can change from one day to the next, even from one hour to the next,” she said.

The power plants have stopped working because of the blockade leaving hospitals to work on power generators.

They too are now reducing the use because of the lack of fuel – they may have to shut permanently if the blockade continues.

“We are facing the same situation as other hospitals in Port-au-Prince; we will not be able to operate our medical facilities for more than a few weeks if we do not have access to fuel,” says Mumuza Muhindo, MSF’s head of activities in Haiti.

“In addition, medical equipment, which we also need in order to continue to treat cholera cases and provide care to people, is currently blocked at the port,” he says.

The use of sexual violence has been identified by a UN report, published last week, and the details of which make for horrific reading.

Armed gangs have used rape and collective rapes to “instill fear, punish, subjugate, and inflict pain on local populations”, the report states.

Women, girls, and sometimes men, are also coerced into becoming the “partners” of armed elements, in gang strongholds.

“Refusing such sexual demands can lead to reprisals including killing and arson attacks,” the report finds.

The UN study found that sexual violence occurs during kidnappings, which our security source has said are at levels unseen anywhere else in the world.

Some women and girls are repeatedly subjected to rape, by one or multiple armed captors, at times over the course of several days or weeks. The kidnappers have even used recorded videos of the rapes to press the victims’ families to pay the ransoms.

“Over the course of the past year, gang violence has spiralled out of control, particularly in the metropolitan area of Port-au-Prince and in some regional cities…"

"…A statement before the UN Security Council by Ambassador Fergal Mythen, Ireland’s Permanent Representative to the UN last week was made in strong language and laid out the Irish position.

“It is truly like hell on earth. It is a hell created by the parasitic actions of gangs, capitalising on a political, institutional and security vacuum. They show nothing but contempt for the Haitian people,” he said.

“For the Haitian people, and in particular women, girls and boys, this is their reality. Collective rape. Mutilation. Execution. Being burned alive.

“The violence and depravity exhibited by gangs, has only escalated in recent weeks. They act with almost universal impunity. The international community cannot leave Haiti to face this unprecedented challenge alone.

Mythen’s comments, coupled and discussion this website had with sources has shown Ireland’s willingness to support for a move greater than sanctions – a massive military intervention…"