Fairytale Hypothetical:
Imagine that all supernatural beliefs are obliterated all at once all across the globe. Spiritual and religious people forget their beliefs, and all evidence of all supernatural beliefs which have ever been are altered or whisked away to Never-Never Land. Holy texts disappear; temples are transformed into alms-houses or entertainment venues; peoples’ memories are altered so that temple-goers remember only socializing with a bunch of acquaintances once a week; priests are transformed into social workers or community leaders or hucksters. In short, nobody believes in anything supernatural, and there’s nothing to suggest that anyone ever did.
But people remain fundamentally the same; we still have the capacity to believe.
Do you think that spirituality and/or religion would spring forth anew from the human psyche? If so, what forms would it take? Would spirituality (non-organized religion) come out stronger after the clean-wipe, or would (organized) religion once again come to dominate metaphysics? Would we start all over again with ancient Summeria-like religions with sad, miserable afterlives? Or would modern life leap-frog us ahead in the evolution of religion? Having global media and rapid communication as we do, do you think that differing budding beliefs would create more or less conflict than they have in the past? (The Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the current Middle East mess which has grown out of a history of religious conflict, etc…)
For any believers who might be reading, how do you think the clean-wipe would affect your belief system? If you’re part of an organized religion, you might think that your god would simply select a new prophet to bring the Truth to humanity; if so, what kind of person do you think this prophet would be? Do you think the clean-wipe would be a complete negative, or do you think that not having to compete with other major religions would allow the Message to reach everyone in a way that it cannot in the world we live in?
PS: I know that this hypothetical begs all kinds of questions, and that ‘spirituality’ and ‘religion’ are interpretable terms. I ask that if you choose to reply that you treat it as the silly hypothetical that it is, and not get bogged down in how’s and why’s and definitions.
We would develop the same general beliefs, I think.
Modern technology would allow religious concepts to spread faster, and could possibly give rise to more syncretism, but outside of that it wouldn’t be too different.
I agree with MA. Many people believe what makes them feel good rather than facing up to reality. I’ve had discussions with Christians who told me they believe in a god because they cannot face life without such belief. I know life is tough and then you die, but embracing superstition seems a poor covering mechanism. Yet many, many people choose the easy way out and seek comforting illusions.
Religion must have started from mankind’s ability to love. This fact is passed down to us by the past burial methods. Then religion expanded to include mankind’s desire to live forever which combined with mankind’s curiosity to know everything resulted in the theories of the heavens. The deities came to be at a much latter time. Most likely from the women who understood the power of herbs on the human body along with the abilities of the midwives. History talks about plagues as past mankind’s biggest problems. Wars are not passed down as part of pre-history. As far as I can tell wars and gods arrived at same time in history.
To answer your question. Science will replace plagues and the idea of heavens. The internet will serve mankind’s curiosity to know everything. Wars are political and economically driven.
That leaves us with the starting source of religion, love. I think as an atheist, it will be OK.
Remember, earlier religion was all about love and sex. The sex part, well.
Religion must have started from mankind’s ability to love. This fact is passed down to us by the past burial methods. Then religion expanded to include mankind’s desire to live forever which combined with mankind’s curiosity to know everything resulted in the theories of the heavens. The deities came to be at a much latter time. Most likely from the women who understood the power of herbs on the human body along with the abilities of the midwives. History talks about plagues as past mankind’s biggest problems. Wars are not passed down as part of pre-history. As far as I can tell wars and gods arrived at same time in history. To answer your question. Science will replace plagues and the idea of heavens. The internet will serve mankind’s curiosity to know everything. Wars are political and economically driven. That leaves us with the starting source of religion, love. I think as an atheist, it will be OK. Remember, earlier religion was all about love and sex. The sex part, well.Um no, love had nothing to do with it. It was abject fear of the world. When one lives at a subsistence level, one looks for help in whatever way it can be had. The Sun seemed to fill a role since it appeared, literally, to be above us and could make things change on earth. Over time that morphed into personal deities, and so on.
Here’s an awesome podcast on how the fear of death led to some aspects of religion. They stumble into the discussion of it about half way through]
But “fear” is only part of the equation, we wouldn’t fear death if we didn’t love. That’s why Ingersoll said “Love is a flower that only grows on the edge of a grave." If we didn’t care about our human connections, we wouldn’t be bothered when they end. We wouldn’t look to create meaning from something that has ceased to be. Religion tries to do that, and ignores that meaning is created by the living. Religion says, “this is what that meant”, life says, “take this moment and make something of it.”
If we started over as you suggest, but placed in modern times, I think religion would be totally different. The notion of a god, deity, etc. don’t forget arose at a time when people had no understanding whatsoever of physical laws, science, even the world as a place where those things even existed. They had simplistic cause and effect notions, like the sun makes me warm, grows the plants, etc. And somewhere along the line sun worship had a human element added. But nowadays, even the most uneducated person still has some notion of technology, some notion of science (well not science per se, but that all this technology has something to do with science).
Wars are not passed down as part of pre-history. As far as I can tell wars and gods arrived at same time in history.Every now and then, I have to ask, what the? Early hominids fought all the time. That didn't end with consciousness, it just got more sophisticated. I don't know what "not passed down" means to you, but there was no idyllic peaceful past full of love and understanding.
Religion must have started from mankind’s ability to love. This fact is passed down to us by the past burial methods. Then religion expanded to include mankind’s desire to live forever which combined with mankind’s curiosity to know everything resulted in the theories of the heavens. The deities came to be at a much latter time. Most likely from the women who understood the power of herbs on the human body along with the abilities of the midwives. History talks about plagues as past mankind’s biggest problems. Wars are not passed down as part of pre-history. As far as I can tell wars and gods arrived at same time in history. To answer your question. Science will replace plagues and the idea of heavens. The internet will serve mankind’s curiosity to know everything. Wars are political and economically driven. That leaves us with the starting source of religion, love. I think as an atheist, it will be OK. Remember, earlier religion was all about love and sex. The sex part, well.Um no, love had nothing to do with it. It was abject fear of the world. When one lives at a subsistence level, one looks for help in whatever way it can be had. The Sun seemed to fill a role since it appeared, literally, to be above us and could make things change on earth. Over time that morphed into personal deities, and so on. Pasted down or digging up our past, however you like to put the concept of learning of our past. Grave items tells us that the people that buried the dead must have loved them to put them deep in the ground for protection, left them food and personal hygiene items. Gave them money and weapons. The timeline shows that about the same time Gods were created that shields were added to the graves. A sign of war. Yet Genesis tells us that there were at least seven periods of high population brought down by plagues before the shields and gods. Moving into the Age of Deities and in the land of the Pharaohs, I see a period of thousands of years of peace and love and understanding. There seemed to be plenty of food. No wars to speak of. People even mummified their cats and dogs. It was a time of flower gardens, music and new foods such as cakes, pies and stuff like marshmallow were being created. The heroes were singers, poets and musicians. People wear wigs and gold was us for dentistry. People wanted to dress and look pretty by using makeup and perfumes. The cities had no walls for protection as in latter times. One of the biggest problems was alcoholism.
Moving into the Age of Deities and in the land of the Pharaohs, I see a period of thousands of years of peace and love and understanding. There seemed to be plenty of food. No wars to speak of. People even mummified their cats and dogs. It was a time of flower gardens, music and new foods such as cakes, pies and stuff like marshmallow were being created. The heroes were singers, poets and musicians. People wear wigs and gold was us for dentistry. People wanted to dress and look pretty by using makeup and perfumes. The cities had no walls for protection as in latter times. One of the biggest problems was alcoholism.Can you get a little more specific? Is your "Age of Dieties" the same as "The Axial Age"? You talk about early burials, which would be some 40-80,000 ya, then you jump to mummification and marshmallows, much more recent. So when exactly was this "thousands of years of peace"?
Modern technology would allow religious concepts to spread faster, and could possibly give rise to more syncretism, but outside of that it wouldn't be too different.So more "My religion is just the face/aspect of god(s) that I understand" and less "My god is the god!!!" Sounds likely.
That leaves us with the starting source of religion, love. I think as an atheist, it will be OK.I'd also be quite happy to live with religion that was all about love.
Here's an awesome podcast on how the fear of death led to some aspects of religion. They stumble into the discussion of it about half way through] But "fear" is only part of the equation, we wouldn't fear death if we didn't love. That's why Ingersoll said “Love is a flower that only grows on the edge of a grave." If we didn't care about our human connections, we wouldn't be bothered when they end. We wouldn't look to create meaning from something that has ceased to be. Religion tries to do that, and ignores that meaning is created by the living. Religion says, "this is what that meant", life says, "take this moment and make something of it."This is kind of a tangent, but do you mean the bolded bit in an absolute sense?
If we started over as you suggest, but placed in modern times, I think religion would be totally different. The notion of a god, deity, etc. don't forget arose at a time when people had no understanding whatsoever of physical laws, science, even the world as a place where those things even existed. They had simplistic cause and effect notions, like the sun makes me warm, grows the plants, etc. And somewhere along the line sun worship had a human element added. But nowadays, even the most uneducated person still has some notion of technology, some notion of science (well not science per se, but that all this technology has something to do with science).What form do you think 'rebooted' religion would take? I've heard comic-book heroes described as 'modern mythology.' Maybe after the clean-wipe, these heroes would go from the acknowledged fiction that we know them as to something more spiritual...?
Can you get a little more specific? Is your "Age of Dieties" the same as "The Axial Age"? You talk about early burials, which would be some 40-80,000 ya, then you jump to mummification and marshmallows, much more recent. So when exactly was this "thousands of years of peace"?My pick for the best time to live in Egypt would have been from the Second Dynasty or the Early Dynastic Period just after the Great Flood of 2708 BC to its peak at the 16th Dynasty of the Second Intermediate Period around 1580 BC. Age of Deities does not have a solid starting date as history is still being dug up and interpreted. But would not include the early “god" when used as term for “knowledge" or a group of people. The start of the Age of Deities would have been started with the animal gods then evolved to part animal and part human gods. Followed by all human gods.
Fairytale Hypothetical: Imagine that all supernatural beliefs are obliterated all at once all across the globe. Spiritual and religious people forget their beliefs, and all evidence of all supernatural beliefs which have ever been are altered or whisked away to Never-Never Land. Holy texts disappear; temples are transformed into alms-houses or entertainment venues; peoples' memories are altered so that temple-goers remember only socializing with a bunch of acquaintances once a week; priests are transformed into social workers or community leaders or hucksters. In short, nobody believes in anything supernatural, and there's nothing to suggest that anyone ever did. But people remain fundamentally the same; we still have the capacity to believe. Do you think that spirituality and/or religion would spring forth anew from the human psyche? If so, what forms would it take? Would spirituality (non-organized religion) come out stronger after the clean-wipe, or would (organized) religion once again come to dominate metaphysics? Would we start all over again with ancient Summeria-like religions with sad, miserable afterlives? Or would modern life leap-frog us ahead in the evolution of religion? Having global media and rapid communication as we do, do you think that differing budding beliefs would create more or less conflict than they have in the past? (The Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the current Middle East mess which has grown out of a history of religious conflict, etc..) For any believers who might be reading, how do you think the clean-wipe would affect your belief system? If you're part of an organized religion, you might think that your god would simply select a new prophet to bring the Truth to humanity; if so, what kind of person do you think this prophet would be? Do you think the clean-wipe would be a complete negative, or do you think that not having to compete with other major religions would allow the Message to reach everyone in a way that it cannot in the world we live in? PS: I know that this hypothetical begs all kinds of questions, and that 'spirituality' and 'religion' are interpretable terms. I ask that if you choose to reply that you treat it as the silly hypothetical that it is, and not get bogged down in how's and why's and definitions.Humans would come up with something supernatural. It's apparently human nature to do that rather than think things through rationally. Who knows what kinds of things they'd come up with? It couldn't be any nuttier than what they've come up with so far. Lois
Here's an awesome podcast on how the fear of death led to some aspects of religion. They stumble into the discussion of it about half way through] But "fear" is only part of the equation, we wouldn't fear death if we didn't love. That's why Ingersoll said “Love is a flower that only grows on the edge of a grave." If we didn't care about our human connections, we wouldn't be bothered when they end. We wouldn't look to create meaning from something that has ceased to be. Religion tries to do that, and ignores that meaning is created by the living. Religion says, "this is what that meant", life says, "take this moment and make something of it."This is kind of a tangent, but do you mean the bolded bit in an absolute sense? I don't know what "absolute sense" means to you, so I can't answer that. The two things are tied together, if you didn't care about a person you wouldn't be bothered when they die, if you didn't care about what you do for others, you wouldn't care about your own death.
Can you get a little more specific? Is your "Age of Dieties" the same as "The Axial Age"? You talk about early burials, which would be some 40-80,000 ya, then you jump to mummification and marshmallows, much more recent. So when exactly was this "thousands of years of peace"?My pick for the best time to live in Egypt would have been from the Second Dynasty or the Early Dynastic Period just after the Great Flood of 2708 BC to its peak at the 16th Dynasty of the Second Intermediate Period around 1580 BC. Age of Deities does not have a solid starting date as history is still being dug up and interpreted. But would not include the early “god" when used as term for “knowledge" or a group of people. The start of the Age of Deities would have been started with the animal gods then evolved to part animal and part human gods. Followed by all human gods. No one is expecting exact dates, those kind or eras usually are defined by ranges. But if you don't supply some kind of date, then I have to do the work to try to figure out what you mean, and I'm not going to do that. I'm suspicious of the idea of peace and harmony before the 15th c. BC. I guess I'm at peace with my relatives because they live very far away, but if I was born into a village with them, I would have moved away by now. My guess is it was internal fighting that caused tribes to constantly split and expand around the globe, more than any sense of wanting to discover something new. Some evidence can be found for moving on because of a lack of resources, but isn't resources a cause of most wars? Somebody got to keep the limited resources where the settlement was and someone else had to go searching.
Yea, I know what you mean. Records of a temple listed over 5 million flower bouquets in one month as gifts to the temple. You then have to think about the size of the population and conclude that people must have visited the temple at least twenty times a week. So this must have happen during the harvest celebration. Then you have to realize that the people had to have time to grow the flowers. And then there has to be a value put on the flowers. Flowers are a luxury item of no value and are grown when times are good and there is plenty of food and people are happy.
People also gave food as a sacrifice at a temple. What does that tell you? Also, what temple? Was there sufficient population to make that number plausible?