Free Will

Science and Technology
41

I’m against the death penalty for a couple reasons. 1) You can’t control all the people who are given the responsibility to use it, so it will be abused purposefully or accidentally, that is, without the great care that should be use to be sure someone is really guilty, 2) You can’t be sure someone is not redeemable. Child molesters are a good example because the reaction to them is so visceral, but what are people basing their conclusions on here? Why do they think child molesters in particular can’t be taught not to do it again?

Neither of these reasons violate a world where people don’t have free will. If we could figure out the factors leading to anyone acting criminally, that would be great evidence against free will, but that is unlikely to happen any time soon. Meanwhile, we can work toward that goal and use it to inform policies on protecting children and supporting parents. Shooting people in the head will not help us work toward that goal.

42

I do have a good sense of right and wrong and am in reality against the death penalty for reasons I have already stated. But I also enjoy the idea of child molesters being killed.

43

Re: Child molesters - there seems to be two types.

One is people who can and often do have normal relationships but they sometimes opportunistically molest kids. They are usually diagnosed with impulse disorders and can be “helped”. These are also the most common offenders.

The other type is true pedophiles - people who only feel attraction to children - never to adults. They often have severe developmental disorders that affect them in every way. They often have the “pedophile look” as a result. This group probably can’t be cured but can be managed.

44

Child molesters are unlikely to ever receive the death penalty in the US. IMO the death penalty is primitive and cruel and has no place in a civilized country. I understand TimB’s emotional response, but we need a reasoned approach.

45

Wow, this dialogue sure drifted.

46

Drift, sort of, but I started the thread and the drift. To me, thinking about what to do with child molesters is a good way to think about free will. Some of them will claim their thoughts are something they were born with. Data can show that people who were abused as children have a higher chance of becoming abusers.

For me, it goes back to something that people around me got me thinking about in my 20’s; how do we make a world that works for everyone with no one and nothing left out? Without going back over the details, that world needs to include some way to keep some people separated from the rest of, from the vulnerable children. It’s the compromise of freedom of the individual and not “anything goes”.

47
"how do we make a world that works for everyone with no one and nothing left out? "
Rule number one, Don't crowd that world!

Too many people, it gets too complex in a hurry, considering personal and tribal Territorial Imperatives.

Have neighbors at a healthy distance and the reality of how much we need each other remains a vivid reality.

In healthy smaller communities and families, the freaks have a better chance of being recognized and dealt with in a more efficient effective manner, keeping it in the blood is possible. Besides, given healthy childhoods, most those freaks wouldn’t happen to begin with.

Just like the Free Will question.

There’s much I agree with, but I guess it’s the certainty some display that I bristle at. Particularly because the most self-certain base their opinions on sketchy psychological experiments, with all their flaws and varied interpretation potentials.

Also the fact is pragmatically you can’t live your life with that sort of No Free Will mindset. Well you can, but you’ll spent it as a brick in the wall. The kids (people) who hate school (or work), are the ones who are most often sick in bed in the morning. Small insults to the system are subconsciously encouraged to become debilitating since it facilitates avoidance.

The engaged wakes up a bit shitty feeling, but has not time for it and moves through it. Body is too busy taking care of business for potential illness to take hold, we get on with the day.* Those are willful choices that must be made in the moment - and I’ve always been one more respectful of the pragmatically dealing with the physical reality around me, than all the notions people are able to construct in their heads. (*Of course, this is a loose generalization, I’m not denying real illness, just that our psychological attitude is another very real line of defense.)

 

The mind experiment - We are moving through a cascade of chaotic determinism - are you gonna just lay there and get flopped along, or grab for something and try to influence where that flow takes you. That’s where the really interesting questions are for me.

It’s in that squishy zone of actually dealing with our day to day.

But of course each of us is different. I’m the sort of character that after high school spent long periods putting myself out their on the road, different towns, different jobs. Years worth. Quite literally, no structure except for the next ride, or the next adventure I hooked up with, be it a few hours, or a couple months finding myself behind the wheel and driving an 18-wheeler cross-country, at 20, and a world of stuff in-between - until one moves on to what ever comes up next. Not the slightest notion of planning (beyond the basic survival things).

It is not the destination, it is the journey. ooooooowwwmmmmmm

Also, I never forget that in my very early years the general consensus was that I was gonna be another brick in the wall, headed for Roosevelt High School and the army, then work force. I myself did not like that at all, but what did I know . . .

I share this because it does color my perspective and my focus on pragmatic living and choice making, in a constantly changing world.

 

48

CC: Also the fact is pragmatically you can’t live your life with that sort of No Free Will mindset. Well you can, but you’ll spent it as a brick in the wall.

 

I do, and I’m still alive and haven’t hit a brick wall yet. It’s a matter of reinforced discipline.

49

You know that’s the tragedy of this hang the pedophiles thing, get up close and personal, what you find is a terribly scared child inside a shell. I’m not pretending to know much about it, but I have known some terrible people, gotten to know a little of their stories, but for the grace of providence - I could be one of them. And what about the people who are ugly harmful, but also possess a beauty humane side?

Guess it all depends on where we stand in the circle. If we are distant we can weigh such thing impartially make grand moral judgements. Do it to my child and I’m afraid of what I’d do the guilty given a fraction of a chance.

 

 

 

 

50

True da Lois,

reinforced discipline, situational awareness, personal awareness, respect for action/reaction, and all that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hx4gdlfamo
51
There’s much I agree with, but I guess it’s the certainty some display that I bristle at. Particularly because the most self-certain base their opinions on sketchy psychological experiments, with all their flaws and varied interpretation potentials.
The psych research is old news. At this point neuroscience has learned enough about brain function to say free will can't really exist.
52
Also the fact is pragmatically you can’t live your life with that sort of No Free Will mindset. Well you can, but you’ll spent it as a brick in the wall.
This is correct but we have the illusion of free will anyway from how the brain works.

 

53

@LoisL

Really? How fascinating.

The older I get, the closer I get to being a hard determinist. Not so much from a ‘decision’ being made that time; they tend to feel as if I’m making a free choice, exercising free will. In retrospect it seems like MOST decisions I make have been virtually inevitable. BUT, I find it impossible to pin down exactly which decisions I’ve made which have been “free”. Deconstructing a decision can be quite unsettling.

BUT; how do you deal with ethics and morality? Does not no free will mean no personal responsibility? Seems terribly unfair to punish (or reward) an individual for behaving in a way over which he/she has no control.

Simple answer; life ain’t fair. Our evolutionary progress/biological imperatives are predicated only on surviving for long enough to reproduce, and care for offspring until they can care for themselves.

It can be argued that our senses of say empathy, compassion, self defence and broader moral values all have survival value. My formal approach to such questions has several theoretically bases, but the most important is functionalism. IE that all human behaviour has [or had] a reason which is directly linked to survival. Societal reactions to behaviour have the goal of protecting the group. Social animals especially behave in the same way, albeit with perhaps less nuance.

A logical conclusion to this position is that that religions exist for practical reasons, the basic of which is the survival of the group. That works for me.

Does any of this make sense to you?

54

I like it.

55
Does not no free will mean no personal responsibility?
This seems to be a sticking point for many. Personal responsibility is an aspect of the whole illusion, I think. If we were programming robots to make decisions and one of them did something, we would say that the robot did it, even though really we meant the programmer was responsible, but the programmer didn't program it to do that, it only setup conditions where it could happen. At this point, if laws were involved, the programmer probably would be responsible, but I hope I make my point. Language is going to be a problem until we get used to this idea.

Dan Dennett and others have some similar thoughts on the usefulness of religion.

56

@Lausten

Yes, language seems to be a problem for me. My understanding is that if there is no free will , by definition there can be no personal responsibility. However, I feel as if I have free will, and don’t spend a lot of time thinking about the question; it does my head in. Taken to a logical conclusion, one can be left with overt nihilism and existential misery.

Kind of fits Voltaire who said “most men lead lives of quiet desperation” . Not sure I’m quite there yet, although as I get older, far fewer things seem to matter.

57

Yeah Patrick that was making sense to me at 8:14, and at 6:43, it’s definitely mind fuk territory when one gets into it. That’s why I find it best in small doses. ;- )

58

@CitizensChallenge

 

Just like the Free Will question.

There’s much I agree with, but I guess it’s the certainty some display that I bristle at. Particularly because the most self-certain base their opinions on sketchy psychological experiments, with all their flaws and varied interpretation potentials.

What psychological experiments, even sketchy ones, with flaws and varied interpretations are there that show that free will exists?

In fact, the brains ans have been repeated more than once with similar results. It isn’t so much that there are “varied interpretation results”, but that those who insist free will exists won’t accept anything that shows They may be wrong.

Also the fact is pragmatically you can’t live your life with that sort of No Free Will mindset.

We can’t? I do, many other determinists do, as well. It isn’t that hard to do if you give it a chance,

 

Well you can, but you’ll spent it as a brick in the wall. The kids (people) who hate school (or work), are the ones who are most often sick in bed in the morning. Small insults to the system are subconsciously encouraged to become debilitating since it facilitates avoidance.

 

If a kid or adult is “sick” in the morning it’s because his determining factors have brought him to that subterfuge. Humans are determined to lie when it suits their purposes.

The engaged wakes up a bit shitty feeling, but has not time for it and moves through it. Body is too busy taking care of business for potential illness to take hold, we get on with the day.* Those are willful choices that must be made in the moment – and I’ve always been one more respectful of the pragmatically dealing with the physical reality around me, than all the notions people are able to construct in their heads. (*Of course, this is a loose generalization, I’m not denying real illness, just that our psychological attitude is another very real line of defense.)

<b>I maintain they are not willful choices as you describe them. If the person decides to fake illness it’s because his determining factors brought him to that “decision.” It is ‘t something anyone has any control over. I maintain that we can’t consciously overrule our determined actions. </b>

The mind experiment – We are moving through a cascade of chaotic determinism – are you gonna just lay there and get flopped along, or grab for something and try to influence where that flow takes you. That’s where the really interesting questions are for me.

No one thinks he’s getting “flopped along”. Everyone thinks he is making independent decisions, even though his determining factors are making the decisions for him. Even the idea that he has the free will to make conscious decision is determined.

It’s in that squishy zone of actually dealing with our day to day.

Determinists manage to do it.

But of course each of us is different. I’m the sort of character that after high school spent long periods putting myself out their on the road, different towns, different jobs. Years worth. Quite literally, no structure except for the next ride, or the next adventure I hooked up with, be it a few hours, or a couple months finding myself behind the wheel and driving an 18-wheeler cross-country, at 20, and a world of stuff in-between – until one moves on to what ever comes up next. Not the slightest notion of planning (beyond the basic survival things).

Whatever you did, was determined by your genes and experience, even your idea that you did it by free will and that you hadn’t planned it out. Even your insistence that you didn’t plan anything out was determined.

It is not the destination, it is the journey. ooooooowwwmmmmmm

Yes, the journey that was determined. You liked the journey because you were determined to like it.

Also, I never forget that in my very early years the general consensus was that I was gonna be another brick in the wall, headed for Roosevelt High School and the army, then work force. I myself did not like that at all, but what did I know . . .

<b>Indeed. You couldn’t know. If you were determined to be a brick in the wall you would have been. General consensus has no effect on your determining factors. They kick in whether anyone thinks they will or not, including you. </b><b></b>

I share this because it does color my perspective and my focus on pragmatic living and choice making, in a constantly changing world.

<b>Of course you do. That goes without saying. You are determined to think you live pragmatically and make free will choices. </b>

59

Correction to my post

In fact, the brains scans have been repeated more than once with similar results.

 

I put my replies in bold. I have no idea why putting my replies comes up in bold and sometimes with <b> before and after. Yet another CFI program glitch, I’m afraid.

 

 

 

60

“<b>Of course you do. That goes without saying. You are determined to think you live pragmatically and make free will choices. </b>”

Yup.

 

I love metaphysical navel gazing, to a point.

It is my understanding that metaphysical propositions, such as the Free will/ Hard determinist dichotomy are unfalsifiable. Although I find hard determinism the most logical and intellectually satisfying, I can’t prove it. So, I live my life as if I have free will and am responsible for my behaviour, especially in the moral /legal sense. I’m unable to handle it emotionally any other way.

An aside; speaking of navels; did Adam and eve, the firsts human, have a navel? Michelangelo thought they did, a his painting of Adam on the Sistine chapel ceiling has a navel. Irrelevant, I know, but fun to throw at a happy clappy apologist.