I’ve oft expressed my desire to change the views of others away from the supernatural and toward the secular humanist way of life. To my surprise, I found many atheists quite opposed to this concept since they believe it makes them no better than the religious folks going door to door selling their religion. Many seem to hold the opinion that we ought to keep our beliefs to ourselves and let others do the same.
I can only presume that such people don’t see the real effect religion holds on our way of life. It sounds almost like we need to “evangelize” atheism both to atheists and theists alike. Do you agree that we ought to share our [lack of] faith? If so, what do you believe are some useful methods? Studies show that simply debating with a person often makes them stronger in their belief even if they were utterly defeated. Without reason, what more is there? Just awareness? How to raise greater awareness?
I don’t think we need to “evangelize” atheism. We just need to be in the conversation, have a place at the table as it were. We will never get anywhere if changing their minds is our only goal. That rarely if ever works between groups with opposing views. However, we do need to present ourselves as happy, moral, compassionate, and respectful of others beliefs. Convincing someone that their belief is irrational and illogical will remain ineffective until they are shown that we are not what they “believe” we are. Calling someone crazy for their belief in a god is the equivalent of calling someone an abomination for their lack of belief in a god. We can only change the way they see us by our actions, not our arguments on an issue. As long as we disrespect their beliefs, we will continue to be seen as abominations and not people they have something in common with.
I’ll second that! Evangelizing atheism – the fact that there is no God – is pretty much pointless. You either see the truth or you don’t. Evangelizing Secular Humanism is what we should be doing. And the best way to do that is by our actions.
I couldn’t agree more with the secular humanism and the lack of argumentation points brought up. I’d like to point out that Christians don’t go door to door of proclaimed atheist’s homes and argue though. They simply go door to door to share their faith with those who will listen or might be interested in the perspective. We could do similarly without simply arguing with everyone. If they’re willing to listen, we can show them why we take the positions we take with the Bible and God and the many fallacies of confirmation bias and circular reasoning that many Christians fall into. We could also similarly hand out “tracts” and the like for the people it might affect. For those of us solidified in our belief such things will do nothing, but for the seeker, they can find. Right now, seekers only find Christianity and Islam since they’re the ones providing most of the data. We can respect a person’s belief while still sharing our own in a more collective and organized fashion while, of course, promoting humanism and BEHAVING ourselves.
To anyone who claims I am “evangelizing” when I speak my opinion, I would ask, “where do you draw the line?” If you live in a repressive dictatorship, the line is the party line, but in a democracy, politics should not be limited to a private vote every other year. There is all the discussion before the vote, the reasons for voting one way or another and all the little decisions we make every day. That should be ongoing, otherwise we are just uninformed. There are such things as “dead horses”, but even the discussion of what is a “dead horse” or not is still sometimes requires a discussion.
My policy has been to be quite open about my atheism when theistic topics are brought up, but to live and let live. However, as soon as anyone tries to convert me, I’m quite happy to discuss their ideas with them and help them try to find the logic and basis for those ideas. That includes door-to-door missionaries. I realize I can’t convert anyone, but if I can send them away a little less certain of their beliefs they may also be a little less motivated to push them on others.
Occam
To anyone who claims I am "evangelizing" when I speak my opinion, I would ask, "where do you draw the line?" If you live in a repressive dictatorship, the line is the party line, but in a democracy, politics should not be limited to a private vote every other year. There is all the discussion before the vote, the reasons for voting one way or another and all the little decisions we make every day. That should be ongoing, otherwise we are just uninformed. There are such things as "dead horses", but even the discussion of what is a "dead horse" or not is still sometimes requires a discussion.Evangelizing is going out of your way to tell people and share your beliefs. So even if you're stating your opinion, it's not evangelizing if it was specifically asked of you without your offering. Evangelizing surprisingly works for a lot of religious groups. Some people simply haven't given it thought and having someone talk to them and invite them to their gathering is a good way for them to say, "yes I like this and will begin to identify with it." Especially for atheists, it could be years before they even hear of CFI and thus they remain atheist but never get connected. If someone were to somehow outreach to them, perhaps they, too, could get involved in a greater way. Evangelism is all about advertising and promoting while encouraging belonging of others. Seems to me like a good idea for any worldview that a person thinks is best. It can't be best if no one knows about it and no one follows it and especially if there's another worldview that is far more familiar and prevalent. It doesn't have to be pushy. I'm surprised to find fewer atheists in favor of it.
I've oft expressed my desire to change the views of others away from the supernatural and toward the secular humanist way of life. To my surprise, I found many atheists quite opposed to this concept since they believe it makes them no better than the religious folks going door to door selling their religion. Many seem to hold the opinion that we ought to keep our beliefs to ourselves and let others do the same. I can only presume that such people don't see the real effect religion holds on our way of life. It sounds almost like we need to "evangelize" atheism both to atheists and theists alike. Do you agree that we ought to share our [lack of] faith? If so, what do you believe are some useful methods? Studies show that simply debating with a person often makes them stronger in their belief even if they were utterly defeated. Without reason, what more is there? Just awareness? How to raise greater awareness?Evangelizing non belief doesn't sound logical. I would suggest you choose your battle wisely, if you don't you life is going to be filled with frustration.
I've oft expressed my desire to change the views of others away from the supernatural and toward the secular humanist way of life. To my surprise, I found many atheists quite opposed to this concept since they believe it makes them no better than the religious folks going door to door selling their religion. Many seem to hold the opinion that we ought to keep our beliefs to ourselves and let others do the same. I can only presume that such people don't see the real effect religion holds on our way of life. It sounds almost like we need to "evangelize" atheism both to atheists and theists alike. Do you agree that we ought to share our [lack of] faith? If so, what do you believe are some useful methods? Studies show that simply debating with a person often makes them stronger in their belief even if they were utterly defeated. Without reason, what more is there? Just awareness? How to raise greater awareness?You can't evangelize atheism any more than you can evangelize nonbelief in unicorns. When it comes to humanism, though, you can explain how it works and let the chips fall where they may. It would do no good attempt to "evangelize" it, you can only explain it and say how it works for you. I have also run into atheists who reject humanism. They seem to equate it to religion and they have probably been so put off by religion they don't want to hear about anything that purports to offer direction. There is nothing you can do about that. If an atheist makes a rejecting statement against humanism, it's best to say nothing and move on. They are best left to their obsessions. I find such atheists to be as close-minded as fundamentalist theists. Lois
Evangelizing non belief doesn't sound logical. I would suggest you choose your battle wisely, if you don't you life is going to be filled with frustration.I'm not sure how it wouldn't be logical. For every disbelief there's a subsequent following belief. The disbelief in God means the belief in naturalism or the like. The disbelief in the morality of slavery is the belief in emancipation. It took people who "didn't believe in" slavery to fight against it to their own peril for the good of mankind. May have been an "unhappy" life to some extent but at least a meaningful one and some people are drawn toward one or the other. If we see spiritualism and religion as being damaging to society, then it's certainly worth fighting against it be it with humanism or secularism or naturalism, etc. It seems very logical to me.
Evangelizing is going out of your way to tell people and share your beliefs. So even if you're stating your opinion, it's not evangelizing if it was specifically asked of you without your offering. Evangelizing surprisingly works for a lot of religious groups. Some people simply haven't given it thought and having someone talk to them and invite them to their gathering is a good way for them to say, "yes I like this and will begin to identify with it." Especially for atheists, it could be years before they even hear of CFI and thus they remain atheist but never get connected. If someone were to somehow outreach to them, perhaps they, too, could get involved in a greater way. Evangelism is all about advertising and promoting while encouraging belonging of others. Seems to me like a good idea for any worldview that a person thinks is best. It can't be best if no one knows about it and no one follows it and especially if there's another worldview that is far more familiar and prevalent. It doesn't have to be pushy. I'm surprised to find fewer atheists in favor of it.You kinda draw a distinction between "evangelizing" and "advertising" here, but don't do it explicitly, so I'm left a little confused. Even if not asked, I might find myself in a conversation where someone is telling me about Donnie Burpo or how vaccines are evil. Depending on who it is, I might tolerate it for a few minutes, but both of those beliefs are dangerous and depending on who is listening, I might speak up. So, I'd be offering my opinion, unsolicited. There are wrong ways to do that, but it is not wrong. Nor is advertising, which by definition involves a little showmanship, a little play on emotion, something to grab attention. Also not wrong, although an extreme example could be wrong. The two things cross with the idea of "word of mouth" advertising, one of the most effective.
You kinda draw a distinction between "evangelizing" and "advertising" here, but don't do it explicitly, so I'm left a little confused. Even if not asked, I might find myself in a conversation where someone is telling me about Donnie Burpo or how vaccines are evil. Depending on who it is, I might tolerate it for a few minutes, but both of those beliefs are dangerous and depending on who is listening, I might speak up. So, I'd be offering my opinion, unsolicited. There are wrong ways to do that, but it is not wrong. Nor is advertising, which by definition involves a little showmanship, a little play on emotion, something to grab attention. Also not wrong, although an extreme example could be wrong. The two things cross with the idea of "word of mouth" advertising, one of the most effective.I think I more related evangelizing with advertising than distinguishing between them. Perhaps someone can convince me otherwise, but I don't see a difference between the two. Evangelizing and advertising are both setting out with the purpose to inform someone of something. Your example I guess would be a form of evangelizing but more of an impulse than a setting-out pre-meditated. I think we all ought to do as in your example and perhaps we all ought to consider at least how to achieve the pre-meditated advertising if not doing it ourselves (i.e. donations, sponsoring someone else, brainstorming).
It may not hurt to try spreading the concepts of atheism and reason in this way, but I can’t imagine it being too successful.
Most rationalists/atheists are introverted nerds who lack social skills, and this alone makes door to door atheism practically impossible. The Internet, sci-fi conventions, science and technology schools, etc. are the best areas for engaging potential atheists - for obvious reasons.
I still don’t think we need to try to convert anybody. We only need to replace the image of non-belief that has been ingrained by organized religion with the reality of what non-believers really are. We are happy, moral, normal people who desire good things for humanity just like them. After that is done, they will make the rest of the transition on their own or not. We just need to remove the frightening boogie man of what happens if you ask questions, then let them start to ask themselves the questions they were afraid to ask before. In their own time and in their own way, they will explore when they are ready.
If you read the stories of people who have left faith, most of them simply got to a place where they could no longer resist the urge to ask the questions they were forbidden to ask.
We can’t show them what happens when people die, but we can show them what happens when people relinquish religious ideology. We are living proof that what they’ve been told is untrue. Well, we can be if we choose to.
I still don't think we need to try to convert anybody. We only need to replace the image of non-belief that has been ingrained by organized religion with the reality of what non-believers really are.This is the crux of the problem. They can't see who we really are when we're some unseen entity and all they hear about us is from the church and Fox News. They will never know what we're really like unless we advertise. You don't go out trying to convert per se, but without some form of advertisement/evangelizing, they'll never know. It was hard for me to leave religion because I "knew" that all atheists were scumbags. Eventually I gained a glance into one particular couple's atheistic life and realized at least THEY weren't scumbags but the majority still were. I needed informing that there even WAS such a thing as Secular Humanism and that there was such a thing as GOOD atheists. I had no idea. Had I known sooner, things would have progressed sooner. Again, evangelizing isn't about converting rock-headed Christians. It's about finding and informing those who are already on the verge of conversion and helping them along. Religion does the exact same thing in the opposite direction. We need to inform those who would be our allies in reason. People are far to malleable to allow the churches to continue their reproductive superstitions and indoctrinating their child and every uneducated person into forever believing there is no other good way. He who controls education controls the people.
Code Monkey, you’re too anxious to push em along. The religious right is already loosing this battle, especially in education. Kids now days are being exposed to critical thinking skills we never knew existed 25 years ago. The majority of the religious are growing older and dying off. Don’t start an ad campaign, go out and get to know lots of people who are religious and let them into your life. You, can handle anything they can throw at you. You won’t be sucked back in, unless you wanna be. The more of us that do that, the faster this shift away from organized religion will grow. Be patient, time is on our side.
It may not hurt to try spreading the concepts of atheism and reason in this way, but I can't imagine it being too successful. Most rationalists/atheists are introverted nerds who lack social skills, and this alone makes door to door atheism practically impossible. The Internet, sci-fi conventions, science and technology schools, etc. are the best areas for engaging potential atheists - for obvious reasons.You certainly aren't interacting with the atheists and rationalists I know. I don't know one who could be described as an introverted nerd--and I know more atheists than the average person does. Either you are living under a rock or you're an indoctrinated theist. Lois
I'll second that! Evangelizing atheism -- the fact that there is no God -- is pretty much pointless. You either see the truth or you don't. Evangelizing Secular Humanism is what we should be doing. And the best way to do that is by our actions.That's not what atheism is, Advocatus, so, of course it would be pointless. Theists don't evagelize their non beIief in all of the gods but their own. Why should anyone think atheists should do it regarding the additional god we don't believe in? We have no more reason to evangelize our lack of belief in any god than a Christian has to evangelize his lack of faith in Thor. I don't know when I last heard of a Christian evangelizing his lack of belief in any other gods. We don't even have to evangelize humanism, either. Many atheists are not humanists, for one thing. We can talk about the value of critical thinking and how it creates a more rewarding life to not be indoctrinated into theism. If we started out with religion we can talk about what a relief it was to get out from under it and how much life has improved since we made that step. Evangelizing means intending to convert. That's not what atheists should be doing. We shoild lead by example. Lois
Code Monkey, you're too anxious to push em along. The religious right is already loosing this battle, especially in education. Kids now days are being exposed to critical thinking skills we never knew existed 25 years ago. The majority of the religious are growing older and dying off. Don't start an ad campaign, go out and get to know lots of people who are religious and let them into your life. You, can handle anything they can throw at you. You won't be sucked back in, unless you wanna be. The more of us that do that, the faster this shift away from organized religion will grow. Be patient, time is on our side.I would like to think that it will happen over time and it almost appears as if reason will win-out. But when I look back at our past at Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine, it appears that this was also the belief of the atheists of the time. It was written of in fear by the religious of the day saying how terrible it was that 40 of 100 heads of households were atheist. Something changed. And I think what changed was the evangelism of religion (and lack of birth control for the religious thus corrupting more young children and the next generation). They corrupted what information people would hear and began winning converts. They changed their tactics and manipulated history. They now take credit for the birth of America and the abolition of slavery when it was they who fought to destroy both. It was they that stood in the way of women's rights and now they uphold their virtues as if it was their idea and teach that America is a Christian nation which is why we're so humanist, etc. They managed to get "In God We Trust" added to our money in 1956 over 100 years after atheism seemed to be winning big-time. Things took a HUGE turn for the worse. If we sit on our butts expecting it to work out on its own without extra efforts, I think we'll be proven wrong a second time. It's ignoring history and the fervor of religious belief to win at any cost. It is not an automatic process. Freedom never has been. It's quite possible that the advent of the internet will help, but it's quite difficult to fight against the preconceived notions drilled into children's heads. And the churches are focusing on children all the more and HAVING children all the more (being anti-birth control and all). Still, it might win over time and patience might yield such fruit, but meanwhile we're not helping those out of the destructive mindset who could otherwise be freed. It's selfish and lazy or at the very least ignorant of the damage it causes. Christianity stole years of my own life. If only some people were more willing to have helped me along sooner. If only Secular Humanists could have demonstrated their morality more I would have learned the truth that one can be moral without religion and that religion quite often makes one immoral. I did not get the help I needed and I don't wish that on anyone else seeking truth and finding only religion. I've been burned and I'd like to prevent others from the same fate. Perhaps you guys were more lucky than I.
Sounds like you have a calling. It also sounds like you have an axe to grind about your own journey out of faith. You are the sum total of your experiences and they make you, who you are. Your past makes you uniquely equipped to understand the leaving religion behind process, so rather than regretting it or feeling it was a waste of time, use it to help others. Just temper it in a way that you really believe would have reached you, and not shut you down before the “miracle” could happen.
Go forth on your mission, and keep us posted. 