Democracy without Democracy?

Politics and Social Issues
1

Good piece about what’s going on in Germany. This dovetails with the downfall of liberal democracy everywhere.

In the year leading up to Germany’s February elections, the far-right party Alternative for Germany was rising fast in the polls. It would ultimately increase its seats in the Bundestag from 76 to 152. But when I talked with supporters, I found that they were cynical. One of the most consistent messages I heard when I visited Germany was that the government had rigged the game against them. “It’s not just the opposing parties that don’t want us; the system itself doesn’t want us,” said a member of the crowd at a rally in Thuringia. Now that claim seems undeniable.

Last week, the German domestic spy agency Bundesamt für Verfassungsschutz declared the AfD an “extremist” organization, which makes it eligible for surveillance, infiltration, and a potential outright ban. Other groups previously singled out for attention and investigation by the agency include the Islamic State, various unruly Marxist-Leninists, and the Church of Scientology. These others can boast a ragged caliphate, closets full of Che T-shirts, and an upcoming Mission: Impossible movie, respectively. But they do not have what the AfD has: nearly a quarter of the seats in the German Parliament. The AfD has already challenged the “extremist” label in court, and the BfV has withdrawn its finding until the court rules on it. The case is expected to take months, possibly years, and in the meantime will throw German politics into disarray.

2

Lock up or disqualify your opponents before they get too popular. Of recent times Happens in france , romania, uk , usa and now germany having a go.

3

Democracy without democracy, is no Democracy at all, it’s a fever-dream.

Is the AfD too extreme for democracy?

In Germany, there is no doubt, because the BfV is run this way by design, and it has openly declared its finding: that the country’s main opposition party can be spied upon using aggressive and invasive measures. …

To dig a little deeper.

Germany: counterintelligence designates the AfD as an extremist party

Kamil Frymark

… . In its statement, the BfV highlighted the party’s prevailing ’ethnic-ancestry-based understanding of the nation, which is incompatible with the free democratic basic order’. Officials emphasised that the AfD ‘aims to exclude certain population groups from equal participation in society’, and to discriminate against them. The BfV argues that the party does not consider, for example, German citizens of origin in countries with Muslim traditions to be equal members of the ethnically defined German nation. The agency asserts that this incites agitation against specific individuals or groups, devalues them, and fosters irrational fear and hostility towards them. …

Alternative for Germany - Wikipedia

[Graeme Wood: Germany’s anti-extremist firewall is collapsing]

For argument sake:

We have sex offenders registries.

What if AfD is all about criminal intent?

Here in the USA pretty every fool with the cash can get an AK47, to “protect themselves” against fears more imagined than real - so why shouldn’t a sovereign government be able to protect itself against people who want to destroy it?

But the troglodytes have the gold, so they are trying to rewrite the rules of the post war era, and return us to some earlier century that never existed and that only works towards destroying what we have left worth saving.

Though this battle is on two fronts, people & their head games & financial wars against other people.

Then the whole human enterprise run amok and out to demolish our Earth’s biosphere - while up ending its many life supporting complex systems, all in the name of self glorification.

Have at, all I do is watch.

4

Of course democracy without democracy is not actually democracy.

Political parties exist to give voters a chance to try and change policies without bringing down the whole system. However, if voter’s choices are cancelled by the system they are taking part in, then the system is a lie. Nobody will take that system seriously anymore.

But that is where Germany is heading.

5

In France,

-since the eighties, a part of left has adopted the ideology and the politics of the right, legitimating for its voters and, now, many leftists vote for the right. Left gets roughly 25 % of voters.

  • since the nineties, the right has legitimated the ideology of ultra right, and many right leaning voters vote for the ultra right which is at 40 %.

Now back to topic:

The matter is which degree of freedom do you give to the ennemies of democracy and freedom ?

The balance is very delicate.

You can’t forbid them to talk and makes politics, and jail them. If you do that, people in power can claim that any adversary is an enemy of freedom and jail him.

You can’t let them speak and act freely against the rules of law.

You cannot even forbid them to lie as long as their words are not against the law.

And in France, with the support of some popular medias, owned by ultra-right billionaires, ultra-right lies have poisoned the public minds, and ultra-right is at 40 %.

1 Like
6

Heck why go the far? Look at where America is heading.

7

AfD is not breaking the law. They are allowed to express their problems with current politics. The problem German leaders have is the subjects AfD talks about are making them nervous, because they are wary of anything even remotely Right Wing due to Hitler. Older Germans are still living in the shadow of WW2, but younger Germans are moving on.

Calling them an enemy of democracy because they want less immigration and a sense of security – both physical and emotional security – is just making things worse.

A link about young Germans

8

America isn’t banning political parties that go against liberal consensus.

9

Parties like Afd are tolerated to a certain extent within the capitalist system. But when they make overtures for peace with russia, that is totally unacceptable to the ruling elite and the process of dismantling begins.

10

Here in the USA, the GOP and their overlords have figured out a better way - doing their best to ban free and fair elections, and just in case to delegitimize elections all together.

Here again I’m reminded of a certain image. :neutral_face:

11

Trump might be trying to limit voting. He is nowhere near doing that, because the system is pushing back. What’s happening in Germany is not comparable because the system itself is already prepared to ban an entire party.

12

There are some reasons to link AFD to Nazism, use of Nazis slogans, terms of program and so.

I have French sources…

Some facts

The AFD does not only want to limit immigration, he wants to deprive German citizen of foreign ascendency of their nationality and expel them from Germany.

13

I’m not allowed to say liar, am I?
So instead of doing that - I’ll let the evidence speak for itself.
GOP War On Free & Fair Elections

MAY 14, 2025

WATCH: Senator Padilla Convenes Spotlight Hearing on Dangers of Trump, Partisan Attacks on Voting and Elections

Election officials and voter advocates detail the harmful impacts of Republicans’ SAVE Act and Trump’s anti-voter executive order on the right to vote for millions of American citizens
Democratic Senators Slam ‘Radical’ GOP Push to ‘Make it Harder for Eligible Americans’ to Vote  - Democracy Docket

Been going on for a while now,

What Drives the GOP Obsession with Restricting Voting? Race.

Bill Yeomans

April 13, 2020

If the whole party is dedicated to NAZI ideals and thinking - why not ban the whole party?

1 Like
14

What matters more , actual Germans or foreigners with German citizenship?

The increasing popularity of AfD means German leaders have made a big mistake in trying to dilute German identity. Germans have a right to question this.

15

Not true at all. But even if AfD were Nazis it would be a terrible idea to ban them because it makes a mockery of free and fair elections.

I already said Trump might be trying to do that, but he hasn’t been able to accomplish anything because the system won’t let him.

It is completely different from what’s happening in Germany.

16

Martial law coming to your nearest democracy

IMG_1253
IMG_1253612×345 39.9 KB

17

Of course, the Earth’s situation and human population and humanity’s God like powers and “the machine” taking over the collective human mind is unlike anything back them.

Still,
I would prefer, the same, but different.

Because,
Totalitarian thinking is the S.O.S.,
resulting in the same old paranoid hateful behaviors and disasterous outcomes.

Oh and,
I see you haven’t learned anything about having a discussion.

1 Like
18

Regarding totalitarianism – the right question to ask would be, is it more totalitarian to ban a political party in a democracy because it makes the status quo uncomfortable?

Or is it more totalitarian for citizens in a democracy to exercise their rights and try to fix problems through policy changes rather than letting the current problems snowball?

Most Americans would say number 1 is worse, but Germans are very different from Americans – your own mentality seems to be proof of that.

19

We need more details.

20

Please don’t misuse and abuse the word totalitarianism.

Misusing and abusing words deprive them from their meaning and strength.

One must not mix, restriction of freedom in a democracy, dictatorship and totalitarianism.

In every democracy, exercise of freedom is restricted, one may not jill his neighbor, must respect the rules when driving, and firms must produce and sell safe products, or should.

Dictatorship is the monopolization of power outside democratic processes, with the suppressing of public freedoms. Usually, if you don’t oppose the dictatorship and don’t infringe on its economic privileges, you are safe.

Totalitarianism is a further stade, at minima, the power

  • wants a total control not only of the lives of the people, but even their thoughts,
  • wants an active support to its ideology
  • needs to find scapegoats to mobilize the people against imaginary ennemies.

China and Russia are totalitarian states, USA and Germany are not.

  1. Democracy is not a perfect system, it is the less worst, as Churchill has said.

Anarchists say : “Dictatorship is ‘shut your mouth’; democracy is ‘keep talking’.”

I prefer democracy, even not perfect.

  1. AFD has not been banned.

On Friday, May 2, German domestic intelligence classified the entire Alternative for Germany (AfD) party, which came second in the last parliamentary elections, as a “proven right-wing extremist” movement, which should lead to its placement under intensive surveillance. Reacting to this classification, the AfD denounced this “a severe blow to German democracy” and a “politically motivated” decision. The party “will continue to defend itself legally against these defamations that are dangerous to democracy,” party leaders Alice Weidel and Tino Chrupalla said in a statement.

The AfD’s ideology, which “devalues ​​entire groups of the population in Germany and undermines their human dignity,” is “not compatible with the basic democratic order,” the Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution said in a statement.
On Thursday, May 8, German intelligence services suspended its decision to classify the far-right Alternative for Germany (AfD) as a “right-wing extremist movement.”

AfD politicians are now challenging this classification in court. Pending the ruling, an agreement has been reached to temporarily suspend the designation.

In the past, the intelligence services had already suspended another decision classifying the AfD as a party “suspected of right-wing extremist activities.”

The party had appealed this decision in court. Although no final verdict has yet been reached, the party has already failed twice in its appeals.

That’s refer us to the classical question, “Which freedom for the ennemies of freedom?”

No easy answer is available. Germany had a very bad experience.

1 Like