Winston Churchill: “Individual Muslims may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world.”
Winston Churchill: "Individual Muslims may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world."And that was probably, what, 60+ years ago. Just imagine what he'd say now that modern technology is available to them.
Wow, I didn’t know that Churchill was a racist and a bigot, like us.
Winston Churchill: "Individual Muslims may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world."And that was probably, what, 60+ years ago. Just imagine what he'd say now that modern technology is available to them. He wrote it in 1899, so 116 years ago. He was in South Sudan. Here is a longer version of the quote. http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/27711
Wow, I didn't know that Churchill was a racist and a bigot, like us.He was analyzing what he experienced in South Sudan. Lois
WINSTON CHURCHILL ON ISLAM - IN 1899!
“How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries!
Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia
in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many
countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods
of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet
rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the
next of its dignity and sanctity.
The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as
his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must
delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased
to be a great power among men. Individual Moslems may show splendid
qualities - but the influence of the religion paralyses the social
development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists
in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and
proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa,
raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity
is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it
had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell
the civilization of ancient Rome.”
-Sir Winston Churchill
Winston, please don’t be a bigot and a racist. Your fear-mongering is counter-productive. Islam is just going through a terrible phase, as do all religions. Most Muslims are nothing like what you are describing. You are over-generalizing the effects of Islamic doctrine, from your experience with Muslims, in Sudan, who are actually solely behaving according to the oppressive conditions of their lives, that have made them react in the ways you describe. Most Muslims really do show splendid qualities, so there is nothing to be concerned about re: a so-called underlying militancy of Islam.
Besides, what would Mr. Chamberlain say about your tirade?
WINSTON CHURCHILL ON ISLAM - IN 1899! "How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities - but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome." -Sir Winston Churchill Winston, please don't be a bigot and a racist. Your fear-mongering is counter-productive. Islam is just going through a terrible phase, as do all religions. Most Muslims are nothing like what you are describing. You are over-generalizing the effects of Islamic doctrine, from your experience with Muslims, in Sudan, who are actually solely behaving according to the oppressive conditions of their lives, that have made them react in the ways you describe. Most Muslims really do show splendid qualities, so there is nothing to be concerned about re: a so-called underlying militancy of Islam. Besides, what would Mr. Chamberlain say about your tirade?There's nothing racist or bigoted in his comments. He's calling it like he sees it and seems to have called it quite accurately. What he DOESN'T state is that his observations would be equally correct a few hundred years earlier as relates to European Christians. He does, correctly, refer to the fact the Christianity found science. Once Islam does, maybe we'll be safe from the ills of that religion too.
WINSTON CHURCHILL ON ISLAM - IN 1899! "How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities - but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome." -Sir Winston Churchill Winston, please don't be a bigot and a racist. Your fear-mongering is counter-productive. Islam is just going through a terrible phase, as do all religions. Most Muslims are nothing like what you are describing. You are over-generalizing the effects of Islamic doctrine, from your experience with Muslims, in Sudan, who are actually solely behaving according to the oppressive conditions of their lives, that have made them react in the ways you describe. Most Muslims really do show splendid qualities, so there is nothing to be concerned about re: a so-called underlying militancy of Islam. Besides, what would Mr. Chamberlain say about your tirade?There's nothing racist or bigoted in his comments. He's calling it like he sees it and seems to have called it quite accurately..... My response to Winston was satirical (or perhaps sarcastic). I should probably denote it more clearly when I am trying to be humorous.
What he DOESN'T state is that his observations would be equally correct a few hundred years earlier as relates to European Christians. He does, correctly, refer to the fact the Christianity found science....The way I read it, he is not saying that Christianity found science, rather that despite it's unsuccessful struggles against science, science was now (in 1899), saving Christianity's ass.
Once Islam does, maybe we'll be safe from the ills of that religion too.I don't think that it is that simple. If science helps the world progress to the point that there is no particular need or benefit for one group to struggle with another for power or resources, then, yeah. But that's probably just th stuff of optimistic science fiction (e.g., Star Trek). But Islam is not the same as Christianity. To the extent that science promotes more secular values among followers of Islam, yes, that would help tremendously. But Islam, in it's original and fundamental state, is insulated from secularism, but not so insulated from science. Obviously some interpretations are also threatened by and insulated from science, as well, these days (e.g., Boko Haram, which translated basically means something to the effect of Forbid Education). And these anti-education manifestations of Islam are certainly among the worst for mankind. But I think that for all of Islam and the rest of the world to ever fully, peacefully co-exist, Muslims should let go of the goal of the establishment of any Islamically governed state, or at least of the ultimate goal of a world-wide Islamic state. But this is unlikely, as the basic doctrine is about submission to the will of Allah, and Allah's will is that there be an eventual worldwide caliphate. Perhaps they could come to a place where almost no viable version of Islam seeks to establish a worldwide caliphate though any violent means. (i.e., No violent jihad would be acceptable). And they would just defer to Allah to bring about the ultimate theocracy, peacefully, when he wills it. Some would still struggle through peaceful means to attain a world governed by Islam, but this would be a major improvement. But science, by itself, won't change that underlying part of the doctrine. Now, please note that in my statements above, I don't mean to paint all Muslims with the same brush, as to their understanding of or investment in Islamic doctrine. That would be patently untrue. Most Muslims seem content to live in a secular world, these days, but of course there are plenty who aren't also. But the underlying doctrine, remains, and although it is interpreted in a variety of ways, and may always be, there is, theoretically, some correct version, at least, according to Mohamed. Which one is that? Mohamed's. Sorry to be cryptic, about this, but he was.
Churchill was describing the Sudanese in general - regardless of their beliefs. He might not have intended to, but he did.
He should have extended his remarks to Christianity (and, in fact, to all religions). All religions are retrograde forces that paralyze the development of those who follow them. He was right about the Muslims but he failed to see Christianity as having exactly the same effect.
In addition, there was nothing racist in what he said.
Lois
Lois, I think it is important to understand that all religions are not equal in their potential and real detrimental effects on the actualization of humanistic ideals. You seem to deny this with the phrase “he failed to see Christianity as having exactly the same effect.”
Churchill was describing the Sudanese in general - regardless of their beliefs. He might not have intended to, but he did.The Sudanese were and are nearly 100% Muslim. it is against the law in Sudan to practice any other religion. "The Islamization of the Sudan region (Sahel)[1] is a historical process of military conquest and religious conversion begun in the 8th century and mostly complete by the 16th. It continues as the source of social, religious and military conflict throughout the Sahel states. "Following its 8th-century conquest of North Africa, Arab Muslims ventured into Sub-Saharan Africa first along the Nile Valley towards Nubia, and later also across the Sahara towards West Africa. They were interested in the trans-Saharan trade, especially in slaves. "This expansion of Arab and Islamic culture was a gradual process, lasting throughout most of the Middle Ages. The Christian kingdoms of Nubia came under pressure from the 7th century, but they resisted for several centuries. The Kingdom of Makuria and Old Dongola collapsed by the beginning of the 14th century. A significant role in the spread of Islam in Africa was taken by Sufi orders during the 9th to 14th centuries, who spread south along trade routes between North Africa and the sub-Saharan kingdoms of Ghana and Mali. On the West African coast, they set up zawiyas on the shores of the River Niger. The Sanusi order were also highly involved in missionary work in Africa during the 19th century, spreading both Islam and a high level of literacy into Africa as far south as Lake Chad and beyond. The Mali Empire became Islamic following the pilgrimage of Musa I of Mali in 1324. Timbuktu became an important center of Islamic culture south of the Sahara. Alodia, the last remnant of Christian Nubia, was destroyed by the Funj in 1504. "As a consequence, most of the Sudan region is today predominantly Muslim. This includes the Republic of Sudan (after the secession of Christian South Sudan), the northern parts of Chad and Niger, most of Mali, Mauritania and Senegal. The problem of Slavery in contemporary Africa remains most pronounced in these countries, along the racial boundary of Arabized Berbers in the north and blacks in the south. This concerns the Sahel states of Mauritania, Mali, Niger, Chad and Sudan in particular, continuing a centuries-old pattern of hereditary servitude going back to the historical Muslim conquests. In terms of warfare, the racial conflict between Arab or Arabized and non-Arab black populations is ongoing in the various internal conflicts in Sudan, most notably the War in Darfur, the Northern Mali conflict, and the Islamist insurgency in Northern Nigeria." http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamization_of_the_Sudan_region
Lois, I think it is important to understand that all religions are not equal in their potential and real detrimental effects on the actualization of humanistic ideals. You seem to deny this with the phrase "he failed to see Christianity as having exactly the same effect."How is the history of Christianity before the Reniassance different from the history of Islam now? Islam has not had a Renaissance. Lois
Besides, what would Mr. Chamberlain say about your tirade?"I have this piece of paper that guarantees peace in our time"! Huzzah! Cap't Jack
Lois, I think it is important to understand that all religions are not equal in their potential and real detrimental effects on the actualization of humanistic ideals. You seem to deny this with the phrase "he failed to see Christianity as having exactly the same effect."How is the history of Christianity before the Renassaince different from the history of Islam now? Islam has not had a Renaissance. Lois Actually, Islam had a Renaissance before the European Renaissance, and rejected it. Mathematics in medieval Islam]
Lois, I think it is important to understand that all religions are not equal in their potential and real detrimental effects on the actualization of humanistic ideals. You seem to deny this with the phrase "he failed to see Christianity as having exactly the same effect."How is the history of Christianity before the Renassaince different from the history of Islam now? Islam has not had a Renaissance. Lois Actually, Islam had a Renaissance before the European Renaissance, and rejected it. Mathematics in medieval Islam] How has that "Renaissance" affected Muslims today? It is of no consequence if the majority of Muslims reject it. It might as well never have happened. That they managed to make advances in mathematics says nothing of their moral development. Islam deliberately crawled back into the dark ages after a moment in the sun and has remained there ever since, deteriorating. Lois
How has that "Renaissance" affected Muslims today? It is of no consequence is the majoritynof Muslims reject it. It might as well never have happened. Thatvtey managed to make advances in mathematics says nothing of their moral development. Islam deliberately crawled back into the dark ages after a moment in the sun and has remained there ever since, deteriorating. LoisWhat makes you think the majority of Muslims reject modern technology and moral philosophy?
How has that "Renaissance" affected Muslims today? It is of no consequence is the majoritynof Muslims reject it. It might as well never have happened. Thatvtey managed to make advances in mathematics says nothing of their moral development. Islam deliberately crawled back into the dark ages after a moment in the sun and has remained there ever since, deteriorating. LoisWhat makes you think the majority of Muslims reject modern technology and moral philosophy? Enough of them do to make the world a dangerous place, whether themajority agrees or not. If the majority is rejecting Islamic moral philosophy, they have to speak up and say exactly what it is they are rejecting. Islam is a violent religion and the violence is practiced today, worldwide, and that changes everything. Lois
Enoughofvtem do to make the world adangerous place, whetervte majority agrees or not. If the majoritybis rejecting Islamic mral philosophy, they havevo speak upmand say exactly what it is they are rejecting. Islam is a violent religion and the violence is practiced today, worldwide, and that changes everything. LoisDid someone hack your account?
How has that "Renaissance" affected Muslims today? It is of no consequence is the majoritynof Muslims reject it. It might as well never have happened. Thatvtey managed to make advances in mathematics says nothing of their moral development. Islam deliberately crawled back into the dark ages after a moment in the sun and has remained there ever since, deteriorating. LoisWhat makes you think the majority of Muslims reject modern technology and moral philosophy? Unless they specifically deny it, the default is to assume they reject both. All they have to do is publicly renounce all aspects of Islam that support terrorism amd restricting human rights from women. So far almost none has done so. If you catch any Muslim doing it, please let me know. Lois