At what point does it change?
But with self-reference I am speaking about Phi , the Fibonacci Sequence.
Self-referential
The Fibonacci Sequence is self-referential, defined as F(n) = F(n-2) + F(n-1). It starts with the definitions of the first two numbers: F(0) = 0 and F(1) = 1. The sequence goes on indefinitely: 0, 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, …
This question makes no sense.
You couldn’t have said that? You couldn’t have said, oh, I can see how I said “and” and the other thing, so it looked like I was referring to Pi?
Mathematicians find patterns in nature, yet math itself is purely self-referential. It can only describe itself.
As mathematician/philosopher Bertrand Russell put it: ”Mathematics may be defined as the subject in which we never know what we are talking about nor whether what we are saying is true.”
With Pi, I was drawing a kind of equivalence to Phi, in that due to the self-referential nature of circles, Pi is a mathematical constant that represents the ratio of a circle’s circumference to its diameter. Its approximate value is 3.14159.
A circle itself is self-referential in that each point on its circumference refers to all other points on its circumference .
Circumference = “carrying around”
You’re just digging a deeper hole
Apologies to the author of thread. It had to be done. Well, maybe not “had to”.
You might be right, I keep hoping a new type of participant would should start showing up, but that change doesn’t seem to be happening.
The proud embrace of lies and deception and Orwellian doublespeak seems to be on the ascendance. Hatred for the other is glorified and the Great White MAGA Hope thinks it’s going to take back dominion over humanity and all power. It’s insanity writ large. All they will achieve is a self-destruction that’s going to take down everyone with it, and basically they are okay with that.
The embracing of lies and deception and Orwellian doublespeak by our political and news media* elevating it to Thee Norm (while We The People stood by) it is appalling - worst, it really is a small percentage of zealots pushing this fraud. But they got billionaire direction & support, and they managed to get a stronghold on our mass social media, and control all the megaphone to one degree, and ruthless dedication to brainwashing the lazy-thinking masses.
The, my ‘price of gasoline IS issue one’ mindset.
And most people are happy with Hollyworld sponge cake - so here we are.
While the folks paying for and leading all this are hell bent on destruction of all we American’s once valued.
The News Media is more a joke than ever. Hearst at his worst didn’t inflict the kind of destruction FOX faux network has achieved. All under our noses - no secret about it, but those difficult issues and questions, we just didn’t want to deal with. Now less than ever.
It’s time for pulling back to our primal quest, the heart of our humanity.
The one story that matters most to each individual.
Was my life worth it?
And taking stock.
For instance in my case, digging into memories and verifying vague details into solid fact, which are opening totally novel insights along with some cascading memory streams. Good exercise for 69 going on 70 - specially if you have all sorts of young one’s who might be curious when they grow up. Along with a sweet wife who’s been advocating for this undertaking for many years. In the hope that I’m wrong and we’ll find a way through this, at least for a few more decades as they eventually grow into adults. I actually do have a pair in their 20s doing that right now.
Actually more than that, it’s simply about the doing of it, and all I’ll be learning from the doing of it, the rest is for . . .
.
There you go.
Now, let me say this about that.
WIKI:
In classical philosophy, paradoxes were created by self-referential concepts such as the omnipotence paradox of asking if it was possible for a being to exist so powerful that it could create a stone that it could not lift. The Epimenides paradox, ‘All Cretans are liars’ when uttered by an ancient Greek Cretan was one of the first recorded versions. Contemporary philosophy sometimes employs the same technique to demonstrate that a supposed concept is meaningless or ill-defined.[2]In mathematics and computability theory, self-reference (also known as impredicativity) is the key concept in proving limitations of many systems. Gödel’s theorem uses it to show that no formal consistent system of mathematics can ever contain all possible mathematical truths, because it cannot prove some truths about its own structure. The halting problemequivalent, in computation theory, shows that there is always some task that a computer cannot perform, namely reasoning about itself. These proofs relate to a long tradition of mathematical paradoxes such as Russell’s paradox and Berry’s paradox, and ultimately to classical philosophical paradoxes.
So I’m getting the feeling “self-referential” doesn’t mean any more than, the observation that, “quantum effects are involved” - Sure, they are at the foundation of atoms and molecules, what would not have quantum effect involved within their make up?
Calling a circle self-reference, says what?
Why isn’t a pentagon self-referential?
See what you started. 
Again, all that is concepts and distinctions that we made up.
Well we make up concepts and create distinctions to make sense of what’s happening.
Like when we talk about the stuff we like to do and what makes life “meaningful” a lot of it is just storytelling, making things more than what they really are which is just a bunch of chemical rushes. Thinking someone makes us happy when it’s just the chemicals doing that.
I posted quite a few threads with examples about it.
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That only makes sense if you have an idea of what reality is. You can’t determine it for sure but you need a working definition.
You are trapped in a dog-chasing-tail conundrum which will never get solved by your thoughts alone,
since your mindset seems to make make you incapable of appreciating the physicality of your own body.
Which blinds you to the lessons of your own evolution.
Which blinds you to a rational ethical appreciation of yourself, and the greater world beyond your senses.
Then again, as Lausten points out, given your dialogue style, and lack absorbing or seriously interacting with any of the concepts we’ve shared with you here at CFI - you could just as likely to be someone’s silicon pet, running a program,
oblivious to what any of it is all about.
Life can be a beautiful show, a pageant to be a part of.
What will you be present to?
Fortunately I myself am a child of a different age. 
I mean that we live in a world of words that we built. Everything we take to be reality is stuff that we assigned labels to:
If you understand that “what is irony” is a construction, as is everything which flows out of it, constructions of meaning; and that, the real “you” lies somewhere outside of that cave of shadows, in the feelings, sensations and drives of the body; while you will never escape pleasure and pain, you might escape attachment and suffering.
I don’t like using up space with long unsolicited explanations, and the statement just made requires long explanations, so I guess I’m unclear. On the upside, I hope my unclear statements might trigger pursuit by others into tunnels they may not have considered, and I learn a lot about tunnels from their responses.
Well there isn’t really getting around that we made it all up to make sense of things and feel like we are in control. I can’t really get over that it’s just fantasy and meaning making in the end. There are no lessons to or in evolution, that’s just human projection.
Same with a rational ethical approach.
IOW, you do not feel that you are in control, right? So, exercise control and you will be justified in feeling the satisfaction of being in control.
What is the stuff?
What are the things?
This guy you quoted at least touches on it
I feel like you’re not really getting at what I’m saying about living in a fiction. We live in a world of words that we have created and take to be reality when they are just representations. Even what we take to be self is possible through only language.
“The Buddhist approach is to take the middle path, between eternalism and a soul, and nihilism and everything ends at death. We are never isolated individuals, we blurred into existence, as part of someone elses body, cared for through our vulnerability, and absolutely requiring our community-developed language, to even have the word ‘self’. We are built out of the lives of others, and others will take up the masks and costumes that we think we are, until we realise we can put them down.”
Continuity is a matter of degree, not only with the person who wakes up tomorrow, but each thought, is an expression of a different person than before it. And yet, even after we die, some continuity remains, as our unresolved conflicts and attachments that we use to define ourselves, are taken up by new subjectivities, or points of view
Whatever we label as by thinking it is static.
How so?
That means not in who I am or the labels we took, LIke I said a cited a lot of stuff from QUora about it.
Wat you don’t understand is that what you experience IS your reality.
If it wasn’t, you’d be living a different reality. Accept that what you experience is a VALID experience of your reality.
Start worrying when you start seeing pigs fly. That would be fiction.
It means what it says. “You” is the feelings and sensations in your body.
… that your body produces from within itself, as it interacts with its world.
It gets complicated, and it’s transient, still it is real as, well, real as crabs.
ITD, take a break and think of the possibilities:
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Yeah but then that means everything else is just a concept and not reality, like that other guy I mentioned in a different thread.
I don’t think you know what I mean by fiction.
Outside my brain/mind where are the distinctions being made? Is there any division between me or anything else or are we just drawing lines wherever? Like the seasons, there is no real line between any of them it’s just what we grouped up and labeled to make things make sense for us. What about everything else, do those distinctions exist outside our heads? Do people exist or is that just another concept and distinction we make to navigate reality?
