VYAZMA what you are saying is that the whole of the US constitution is null and void. Because guess what they whole document was written to protect the MINORITY from the MAJORITY. The tyranny of the mob is just as bad as that of a king. You see by your logic the 90% could tomorrow sentence the remaining 10% to death for no reason and this would be ok because the majority wants it. By your logic the deaths of millions at the hands of popularly elected leaders is moral because the majority wanted it. We dont live under the mob rule that you claim. We actually were found here in the US to protect the individual NOT the majority. Funny thing the income tax was never supposed to be a lasting measure but we foolishly allowed it to happen. The income tax is nothing more then a theft of my earnings to give to pond scum that refuse for whatever reason to earn it themselves. If they cant do it, too bad, its not my issue. Your insane view that you have the right to my earnings is made even more laughable by the fact that you would use other people to do it. You have not the guts to rob a man to his face but want a goon squad to come take it. That is all the IRS and the cops that enforce their rules are. Thieves with a cloak of legitimacy. Because Id love you to give me a single logical reason that another persons need binds me to aid them in any way.Your post here was somewhat engaging up until "pond scum". I have a right to your earnings and you have a right to mine. Aren't those 'individuals" the Founding of America was bound to protect, the pondscum you speak of? They are to me. I'm glad we are protecting those individuals from the ravages of capitalist disenfranchisement. Yes it was written to protect them from FORCE. Not their own ineptitude or poor choices. As I've said time and again give me a reason you have a right to ANYTHING of mine. Your idea that the weak are shackled to the strong dragging them down just gives rise to resentment. Why should anyone that doesn't give me value in return gain from my hard work. Why should I strive to work and create jobs when all that means is the harder I try the more you feel the right to steal from me to give to someone that isn't working as hard. Their need and failures are not my problem and yet you seem to deem it just to make it so, by what right? We have equality of opportunity NOT equality of outcome.
Yes it was written to protect them from FORCE.As Cuthbert said above the forces in play are market forces. This inevitably gives rise to inequality of opportunity as well as outcome.
Your idea that the weak are shackled to the strong dragging them down just gives rise to resentment.That's not my idea! But I am exhibiting resentment of that reality. The fact that disenfranchised citizens are shackled to a concept such as unfettered capitalism generally causes resentment.
Why should anyone that doesn't give me value in return gain from my hard work.Maybe you just aren't seeing enough value in your own hard work to begin with? Maybe you're just bitter that you aren't working hard enough to feed yourself and pay taxes? Most people with good business plans or who work hard don't worry about the things you do to such an extent. They realize that their jobs or business are part of a larger picture of a socio-economic framework. Sure lot's of people bitch(erroneously) about welfare or foodstamps for example, but they are not out on the fringes like you. You're just on the fringes.
Why should I strive to work and create jobs when all that means is the harder I try the more you feel the right to steal from me to give to someone that isn't working as hard.I don't know? Sounds like a personal issue. Quit working if it bothers you so much. Sounds like you are not working hard enough. Or your business plan is failing.(if you are business owner. you mentioned you create jobs) Get a new plan.
Their need and failures are not my problem and yet you seem to deem it just to make it so, by what right? We have equality of opportunity NOT equality of outcome.There you go with these "rights" again. No! There is not equality of opportunity. You obviously live with blinders on.
On this matter of rights.
Whatever you think this wellspring is that gives rise to these rights, it is the same wellspring that gives rise to the current rights you rail against.
And that is reversible, retro-active, one size fits all etc…in other words if the shoe was on the other foot and I was the one railing against the system and was saying “What right do the corporations(for example)have to claim natural resources and rape the land, and profit from it?”
You could say the same thing I’m saying to you now. Or any other type of scenario.
Rights don’t come from anywhere. These so called inalienable rights, or human rights, or property rights.
There’s laws! But really there are no “rights”. And laws reflect the current power base’s wants and needs. In the case of the US, part of the power base is the people. Collectively, under Democracy.(nominally.)
You should be good and goddamned glad you live in the US, because the bulk of these laws definitely favor Business and Capitalism.
The vast majority of laws revolve around property and business. The vast majority!! So the odds are in your favor.
Which again leads me to believe that maybe you just aren’t good enough at business. Most successful businesses pay their taxes and
give back to the community in other ways too.
What’s your problem? If you can’t make it in the business in the US, then I don’t know what to tell you.
It’s competitive out there. It can be tough. Quit looking for scapegoats.
MadHatter and VYAZMA points are well taken and both have merit. The system that works for the teacher and factory worker is not the best system for the farmer and business owners and when I say business, I am talking about the backbone of U.S. business of 20 or less employees, not the IBM’s.
In 1917 the greatest economy and government in the world was Germany. Germany was setting the ground work for the Germany Mark to be the number one World’s Safe Haven currency. The Mark was consider the safest of all the currencies in the world and German companies were spread around the world. By 1921 the Dollar could buy 4 Marks. Ten months later the Dollar could buy 4,200,000,000 Marks. Yes, 4.2 billion Marks.
Yes there was WWI, but WWI was not fought on German soil.
No buddy in 1917 could dream that the Mark would fall, after all Germany was big, smart and powerful and was building museums, universities and spending on Socialist types of programs for the people. Germany was brought back to life in 1925 by billions of U.S. dollars going to Germany with management controls by the U.S. Capitalist. The Capitalist economy came back to life and Germany once again became a world power.
Mr. Dawes got the Noble reward for the plan. The Marshall Plan was the same system of jump starting the economies in Japan and Europe in the 1950’s.
We know the pumping of funds in the economies will create work and keep the system operating at the cost of inflation.
So why is the system not working now? The Government has and is pumping vast amounts of money into the system and the economy is not responding.
The simple fact is the U.S. is over regulated with Socialist styled management and the American people and business are over taxed. The only thing that is in our favor right now is that as bad as we are, the systems used by the rest of the world is no better otherwise the dollar could fall like the Mark did.
Both China and Europe are developing world safe haven currencies right now to get away from the dollar. Had they been in place a few years ago the dollar would have devalued and crashed.
The more we regulate and raise taxes the more economy classes are created in the population.
The vast amount of money the few rich people have. So what! If you took that money away from them and gave it to the poor. You still would not fix the economy. We would just be a poorer nation overall. The poor see money completely different than the rich. The poor think the rich are stealing from them and not paying their fair share. That could not be further from the truth.
Socialism can exist and give great benefits to the people if it is supported by a good Capitalists system. Without the Capitalist “base support" the benefits for the people may not exist in a highly populated Socialist system.
VYAZMA quote to MadHatter -
What’s your problem? If you can’t make it in the business in the US, then I don’t know what to tell you.
It’s competitive out there. It can be tough. Quit looking for scapegoats.
On this statement I have to agree with MadHatter.
The government is not looking to the Socialist programs to fix the economy. The government is wanting to pump funds into the Capitalist programs hoping the Capitalist will respond and fix the economy again. But the small businessman does not want the money because he has been beaten up and robbed to many times by the government to jump back into business. The stock market is going up because of the dumping of funds into the economy. Some of the top economist are saying that Americans are going to have to adjust to a lesser lifestyle in the future.
Remember Obama loaning millions to these startup energy companies. Look what happened. Clear proof that Socialist think they understand capitalism and it is all about the money. Wrong, capitalism is all about laws, labor and trade, the making of money. And Socialism is more about the spending of money than the making of money.
Both systems can work together, the big churches have proven that. But you have to laugh at the extent that the churches go to to hide the land, business and stock investments from the public and church members. The biggest ranches in the U.S. are church owned and churches are Socialist systems.
Have a great day, Mike
VYAZMA The market is not force. It is free exchange of value. Its is only when the government gets involved that there is force. You see the only legitimate force involved in the market ought to be when a contract is breached. That’s all, that’s it.
The fact that I value my work and time highly are why I object to this theft. I dont care if its a penny. If you didnt give me something of value in exchange for it then you are stealing from me. It has nothing to do with the amount. Its that you are taking my money, and putting towards programs and giving it to people I DO NOT agree with. This is the issue. To steal my money is to steal the time it took to earn it, to steal my time is to steal my life. Plain and simple
Finally if you want it bad enough there is equal opportunity in this country. Sure some have to work harder then others but that does not mean they do not have the opportunity to reach the same heights as anyone else. The immigrants that come here with NOTHING and work their way up to the the heights of the business world prove this, the fact that there are millionaires that came from NOTHING prove this. Just because we don’t have equal skill or resources doesn’t mean we cannot reach the same heights if we work for it.
MikeYohe you have it basically right. Hell I am not even against social safety nets. I just disagree with you being FORCED to give to them. I find it laughable that almost EVERY person that wants more taxes on the rich, and MORE social safety nets are the first people to blow their taxes on crap like a big screen rather then donate to charity. I do it, BUT its charity’s that give to things I agree with. I dislike people taking my money with no compensation and pumping to inefficient and wasteful programs with zero accountability for it. Worse still I have no say in the fact that they do this.
VYAZMA The market is not force. It is free exchange of value...If you steal, cheat, and welfare (as in corporate welfare) your way into owning every apartment complex in the neighborhood, then slowly raise the rent so that a family can't pay, you've used force on that family no different from hiring thugs to literally toss them out physically. And that's what capitalism devolves into. At a certain point in history, yes, the so-called profit motive was an honest (semi) motivator and still can be to some extent. But as we see nowadays, when it becomes organized and rampant at the corporate level it devolves into sheer crime, grows like cancer in the government, and ruins everything it touches for MOST people. It absolutely does not float all boats.
MikeYohe wrote [ CuthbertJ - Please tell us why a profit-centered (capitalism) versus people-centered (socialism) economic system is good.] I'm not sure if I'm interpreting this correctly. I think Capitalism is a disease so I'm not sure why I'd want to show it's good. I'm also not saying a socialist system as practiced anywhere today is the ideal system. I think if we just define socialism as people-centered, then we should do whatever we can to move to that type of system. I think of it in really simple terms: a child with cancer, obviously no fault of their own, should have complete access to every possible treatment, cure, hospital, etc. without regard to how wealthy their parents are, and without regard to cost. In a capitalist system, this isn't the case, because curing that child is not profitable. Same with education. When the profit motive is in place, then someone decides which cases are worth it or not based on monetary concerns. And that's wrong.So what you are saying is that you have a RIGHT to another persons skill, time, and learning at the expense of others? By what moral ground do you hold this true? As for the original question a free market system is the most moral because it does not rely on FORCE to make people do things. The concept that you have a right to enact force on me or my business to make it fall in line with what you wish is amoral to the extreme. If I act unethically and cause people harm with a bad product that I knew was dangerous then I am legally liable for my negligence and should be held so. But preemptive force is not right by any means.Oh geez an Ayn Randian Objectivist in a gorilla suit. Nice. The Free Market IS nothing more than FORCE in action...economic force doing just as much harm as real physical force. In fact I'd say the Fascists of the world have realized physical force is wasteful and that Economic Force enabled in a Free Market economy is the way to go. As for your RIGHT to another persons skill Rand regurgitation...in the real world rational people realize no one stands alone. Therefore it's in each's best interest to assist others with all their might. I donate to St Judes to help children and their families not because someone is forcing me, but because I can. In your world you'd turn that around and say "what right do those children have to my money?". Barbarian. Actually NO. Your situation fails because you are WILLINGLY donating money. Yes its right that its in our best interests to help others because we gain from it. What is not right is to tell the doctor yes you must take someone in because we say so. We need to have an exchange of value. That is what I advocate. If I am happy giving my talent with computer repair to a local ymca for free because I enjoy helping kids what I give up in time I gain from seeing my work make people happy. However if you say that I must help these kids because they need a pc to do home work no that is not right. Nor is it right to say that your need has any bearing on what I must do. Would it be nice, sure. Would it be the decent thing to do, most likely. BUT you have no right to demand anything from me unless you are willing to give something I deem of sufficient value in exchange. Its that simple.The basic assumption Randians like yourself make is that every one is an island. (I used to be head over heals a Randian too, then I had a family and grew up.) You envision this hypothetical civilization where everything's a nice one to one exchange, etc. It's not that way at all. Every person is a node in a giant flexible social web. Movement of one node effects all the other nodes in some way. If you choose to live in the social web, versus on an island by yourself, then that carries some responsibilities, such as helping others EVEN IF YOU DON'T WANT TO. My kids aren't in the school district anymore. Does that mean I shouldn't pay taxes that go to it? Absolutely not. I want to live in this city, it has a school, the price I pay is paying taxes to something I don't want, don't need, etc. (Directly of course. Since the kids in school work locally I do benefit because when I want a burger, they know how to count out change, etc.) And that's how it is just a million times more complicated at the level of society in general.
MikeYohe wrote [ CuthbertJ - Please tell us why a profit-centered (capitalism) versus people-centered (socialism) economic system is good.] I'm not sure if I'm interpreting this correctly. I think Capitalism is a disease so I'm not sure why I'd want to show it's good. I'm also not saying a socialist system as practiced anywhere today is the ideal system. I think if we just define socialism as people-centered, then we should do whatever we can to move to that type of system. I think of it in really simple terms: a child with cancer, obviously no fault of their own, should have complete access to every possible treatment, cure, hospital, etc. without regard to how wealthy their parents are, and without regard to cost. In a capitalist system, this isn't the case, because curing that child is not profitable. Same with education. When the profit motive is in place, then someone decides which cases are worth it or not based on monetary concerns. And that's wrong.So what you are saying is that you have a RIGHT to another persons skill, time, and learning at the expense of others? By what moral ground do you hold this true? As for the original question a free market system is the most moral because it does not rely on FORCE to make people do things. The concept that you have a right to enact force on me or my business to make it fall in line with what you wish is amoral to the extreme. If I act unethically and cause people harm with a bad product that I knew was dangerous then I am legally liable for my negligence and should be held so. But preemptive force is not right by any means.Oh geez an Ayn Randian Objectivist in a gorilla suit. Nice. The Free Market IS nothing more than FORCE in action...economic force doing just as much harm as real physical force. In fact I'd say the Fascists of the world have realized physical force is wasteful and that Economic Force enabled in a Free Market economy is the way to go. As for your RIGHT to another persons skill Rand regurgitation...in the real world rational people realize no one stands alone. Therefore it's in each's best interest to assist others with all their might. I donate to St Judes to help children and their families not because someone is forcing me, but because I can. In your world you'd turn that around and say "what right do those children have to my money?". Barbarian. Actually NO. Your situation fails because you are WILLINGLY donating money. Yes its right that its in our best interests to help others because we gain from it. What is not right is to tell the doctor yes you must take someone in because we say so. We need to have an exchange of value. That is what I advocate. If I am happy giving my talent with computer repair to a local ymca for free because I enjoy helping kids what I give up in time I gain from seeing my work make people happy. However if you say that I must help these kids because they need a pc to do home work no that is not right. Nor is it right to say that your need has any bearing on what I must do. Would it be nice, sure. Would it be the decent thing to do, most likely. BUT you have no right to demand anything from me unless you are willing to give something I deem of sufficient value in exchange. Its that simple.The basic assumption Randians like yourself make is that every one is an island. (I used to be head over heals a Randian too, then I had a family and grew up.) You envision this hypothetical civilization where everything's a nice one to one exchange, etc. It's not that way at all. Every person is a node in a giant flexible social web. Movement of one node effects all the other nodes in some way. If you choose to live in the social web, versus on an island by yourself, then that carries some responsibilities, such as helping others EVEN IF YOU DON'T WANT TO. My kids aren't in the school district anymore. Does that mean I shouldn't pay taxes that go to it? Absolutely not. I want to live in this city, it has a school, the price I pay is paying taxes to something I don't want, don't need, etc. (Directly of course. Since the kids in school work locally I do benefit because when I want a burger, they know how to count out change, etc.) And that's how it is just a million times more complicated at the level of society in general. You won't convince libertarians. As far as they're concerned a free market will prevent or solve all problems. Like magic! A rising tide raises all yachts. Lois
Studies show the average taxes paid by a worker today comes to 60%. That is all the fees, charges and hidden taxes in products, services and government. With Obama care that will rise to 63% or 64%, the numbers aren’t in yet. But after three years and the Federal money stops the cost are project to rise. How much, nobody knows.
I got to agree with MadHatter. I do not think I am getting my money’s worth!
The only force I have is my vote. And now I find out that the government may be controlling that too.
Yeah, that’s a real problem. Most people don’t think they’re getting their money’s worth because they haven’t the slightest idea of the extremely large amount of services the government provides. If they had to pay for them as they used them they’d be going broke very quickly. How much would you pay a private company to be able to drive on all surface streets and highways, to walk on the sidewalks, to teach your kids, to verify your food was safe, to assure that your flights were safe, that police, firemen, and the military give protection, that a court system protects us from cons, etc? I’ve posted a partial list before and it filled about a half page.
Occam
Yeah, that's a real problem. Most people don't think they're getting their money's worth because they haven't the slightest idea of the extremely large amount of services the government provides. If they had to pay for them as they used them they'd be going broke very quickly. How much would you pay a private company to be able to drive on all surface streets and highways, to walk on the sidewalks, to teach your kids, to verify your food was safe, to assure that your flights were safe, that police, firemen, and the military give protection, that a court system protects us from cons, etc? I've posted a partial list before and it filled about a half page. OccamMore than anyone is paying now. Nobody can fund his own society. Even the money we are able to earn is a product of society and government. Without them we'd have no money--and few goods. Lois
Occam, your right.
Most people do not understand that they are broke. What is the average debt of the American, $300,000.00 and growing?
The dollar is only a “note of debt" and that debt is only backed by the faith in the American system.
The dollar being the only safe haven currency has brought a higher standard of living to Americans. When that faith is gone the dollar will crash. 3 out of every 4 dollars are used overseas.
If China gets their banking system built then the dollar will lose value and may even crash. Inflation will hit us and the average blue collar yearly income will be over one million per year. Your yearly taxes for all these government services might be over $150K per year, how’s that fit into your retirement plans. When do we put the brakes on?
Occam, your right. Most people do not understand that they are broke. What is the average debt of the American, $300,000.00 and growing? The dollar is only a “note of debt" and that debt is only backed by the faith in the American system. The dollar being the only safe haven currency ......"Occam you're right". Or are you? I can't tell by the rest of his post. It just meanders along.... Mike is Occam right, or is he wrong? He just explained to you that you are getting your money's worth. Just like that you say Occam is right? Are all of your views that easily corrected? Or do you just visit here to spout out dime store cliches that you have no vested thoughts on? Did you grasp what Occam said, or are you just toddling along here?
VYAZMA The market is not force. It is free exchange of value. Its is only when the government gets involved that there is force. You see the only legitimate force involved in the market ought to be when a contract is breached. That's all, that's it.You're uninformed. There's plenty of market forces that encumber and inhibit budding "entrepreneurs" like yourself all the time. Even "upstanding decent folk" with capital to invest and good plans get affected by the market forces and business practices of others. The Annals of the Courts are filled with cases where markets, trade practices, business practices, rules, monopolies, trusts, fixing etc have prevented "hard working" business people from fulfilling their aspirations. Therefore there isn't equal opportunity. Wake up! I know you're probably frustrated trying to keep your lousy 1 man business afloat or something. Quit looking for scapegoats. I see plenty of good businesses out there. Then there's the goofball who never worked a stitch in his life who wants to make it in some sort of "business" without any planning or foresight. Gunsmithing, or Pet groomers for example...No plan, no demand. just a dream. Then when the belt has to be tightened, let's get out the racism and the name calling(pondscum). "It's anybody's fault but mine!!!" Whaaaa...whaaaaaa!! :down: If you can't pay your taxes it means your business probably sucks!
Vyazma Post #52
Vyazma, “Mike is Occam right, or is he wrong?"
I agree with Occam, I believe Americans are receiving more than what their labor can buy them anywhere else in the world. But I also believe that the government is bad at management.
The problem i see is we are buying 12 inches of government when we really only need 3 inches.
Sorry for not making my statement clear.
A lot of world banking was only done in dollars. Like the buying of oil for example. As a couple of years ago that is no longer a true fact. China is about ready to open banking all around the world. When America has problems like the housing bubble, many countries also suffer because their money is based upon the value of the US dollar. So they suffer and have done nothing wrong. In a few years they will be able to switch to the European or China based money.
Russia wanted a safe haven currency too. They made agreements to partner with several countries like Venezuela but they do not look to be a threat.
All this killing by drones and the phone and internet spying is not making us to many friends around the world today and banking and trade is best done between friends.