Biden forgives Student Loans - right or wrong?

He’s not a mod though. Only Lausten and I are mods.

[quote=“vanamali, post:42, topic:9816, full:true”]

Thank you yes I have learnt that the hard way
you can go thru my topic about Adam & Eve’s story - I proposed a different view from the prevailing one - I was TOLD in no uncertain terms that there is only ONE view, the right one & mine was not.

Not according to scriptural scholars.

I felt like Galileo, Darwin! But this is the 21st century! I live in a free country where anything under the sun can be discussed, where no two people may hold the same opinion
But not in this case.

Are you complaining about my critique of your interpretation? I believe I have been most courteous to you, whereas you have accused me of being a lying theist.
Clean your own backyard before you complain about your neighbor’s yard.

btw, I have responded to your reference to Adam and Eve in the thread:
“Adam & Eve story describes the Birth process” .

Van i agree with you. Best to stay away from them

The best is to mind the rules . Then you need not stay away from anybody.

This is the problem with the current political landscape. Nobody follows the rules anymore.
Result, people die! (literally and metaphorically)

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Now This, I can see as contributing to inflation:

It mentions that in the article.
Also, a minor mention from a pol: there’s enough to boost education funding (Idaho)

But I wonder how well other state’s education, healthcare, infrastructure, fire/police, or other social services are fairing?

I know taxes are often earmarked for specific expenditures, but I’m sure there is some way to shuffle some funds around.

And bottom line, I think it’s a way for incumbents to buy votes.

And I still haven’t seen if it includes “Parent Plus” loans.

And that is what Galileo and Darwin faced! I am not a fool to take my view to Scriptural scholars who are quite happy with their interpretation of a magic land that people can run away to, that is how they gain coverts, like any old Cult, access to the easy lazy life of ease & comfort the easy lazy way -
why would they want an interpretation that the story is nothing but about life on earth?
Same thing with Galileo - the Scholars loved an Earth at the center of everything, but relegate it to just a satellite of the sun? Nah!

“Are you complaining about my critique of your interpretation?” no, we were talking, that’s what I thought but then the moderator sided with you, got angry and punished me
I was being ANGRY - the dreaded Trope that all dark-skinned people face - “the angry black man” or Asian in this case

“lying theist” An Atheist who comes to the defense of the Bible and its scholars. If you lived back in Galileo’s time, would you not be saying he was wrong? You can understand that people are a bit skeptic when you say who you are

Anyway, I have to be careful from now on when I talk to you, you may not be a moderator but seem to have powerful religious friends, so understand if I don’t answer your posts

All you need to be careful with is maintaining objectivity.

When I say “biblical scholars”, I am not talking about an atheist analysis, but theist analysis. From a theist POV they are making the correct interpretations of the biblical allegories and parables. It’s their book!

That does not mean I agree with any of it. I am an atheist and personally I reject all biblical mythological figures and tales as products of the imagination.

But that does not prevent me from making objective statements about historical facts or the moral value of some mythology.

I appreciate your attempt at interpreting the story of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. I just think you are wrong and offered the mainstream counterargument as the more philosophically correct objective interpretation.

And please rid yourself of the idea that I am a theist. I am a hard Atheist.
I believe the concept of “agnostic” is a cop-out. It’s hedging your bet.

I am all-in committed to Darwinian evolution via natural selection and believe it is a mathematical function of the logical processes of spacetime geometry.
I think Galileo was a genius.
My favorite NOVA presentation is " The Great Math Mystery"

Get it!

My favorite book is “The Skeptics Annotated Bible, Quran, and Book of Mormon”
https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/#gsc.tab=0
Get it!

As to my political affiliation, I am a progressive Democrat and wish peace and goodwill to all mankind and higher animal life forms that have managed to evolve this far.

That word - WRONG - is odd - we are talking about a Story that is not backed up by facts - Darwin clearly proved how we came to be and it’s not some magic man making a couple - it is just an interpretation that serves the religion
Religions use this “you can leave all this suffering behind and run away to a magic land of comfort, sit around doing nothing while our nice Sugar Daddy God will happily cater to your comforts, don’t care what happens to your loved ones back on earth or anyone else” to lure converts
The shamelessness of theists is disturbing

But anyway, all I did was offer another interpretation
Neither interpretation is wrong, that word, does not belong here - these are assumed views of a story
Even when people have facts, people disagree
And only in those cases can we judge whether an interpretation is right or wrong
Clearly after Galileo the Geocentric view was clearly wrong
And after Darwin the idea of the earth being populated by Adam & Eve is clearly wrong
You have no facts, just another interpretation that serves religion, whereas mine does not
But you are aligned against me & you can see why I remain a skeptic

That is correct, and I think we can proceed from there. I think we first need to establish what is meant by “wrong”. If we are talking about the scientific claims in the Bible, then I don’t see much disagreement with the people posting here. If we are talking about what the original authors of the stories intended, that can be at least partially determined by understanding of language, culture and historical context. An interpretation could be “wrong” in the sense that it does not align with that scholarship. Technically, maybe 'percentage possibility of being “right” ’ would be a better phrase.

[quote=“vanamali, post:51, topic:9816”]
That word - WRONG - is odd - we are talking about a Story that is not backed up by facts - Darwin clearly proved how we came to be and it’s not some magic man making a couple - it is just an interpretation that serves the religion

It was the interpretation that served the religion for 1600 years before Darwin came along.
In the story, Adam and Eve were never children but created as grown adults.
Then nowhere in that story are Adam and Eve given choice to stay or leave. They are ordered to leave after disobeying the command never to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge or “ye shall surely die”.
Well, they didn’t die, but were banished from Eden and did not voluntarily leave.
Your interpretation does not address any of these “given theist truths”.

The Theist moral of the story is; “If you disobey God’s commands you will be punished”, not “you will grow up and leave home”

In the secular/atheist world we say “Don’t mess with Mother Nature” or as the scientist, Newton stated; “For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction” (Newton’s Third Law of Motion)

Then you know the majority of scholars would disagree with you.

Have you read any of Robert M. Price’s work? Let me introduce you to him- He’s an atheist who attends the Episcopal Church with his family. He’s a former minister and religious scholar. He’s also a Star Trek fan and other sci fi works, including a Lovecraft Geek and a Bible Geek. Sometimes, studying religion creates an atheist (it did me).

One of his articles: https://www.robertmprice.com/the-value-of-theology-for-atheists/

He also does a podcast called the Bible Geek.

So I’d suggest, if you wouldn’t take your thoughts on Adam and Eve to scholars, not even Robert M. Price, then I’d say maybe you should just let it go and stop trying to insist we accept your view. And before you say you are not insisting we accept your view, your posts do not read as though you aren’t demanding we accept what you say. We do not have to agree with you.

Galileo never tried to interpret and correct the bible. He came up with a correction on a scientific assumption that heavier objects fall faster than lighter objects that was originally proposed by Aristotle.

What you completely overlook is that in spite of the pure scientific nature of Gallileo’s “discovery”, the church still saw fit to accuse him of blasphemy and place him under house arrest.

You really need to practice a little deeper research before you make declarative statement that contradict conscensus agreement.

I really suggest you watch that NOVA video I recommended. You will learn some pertinent historical facts. Trust me, you will like the entire presentation.

And coming back to the thread topic.

When looking at combatting social economic problems from a scientific perspective, social assistance addressing specific temporary social hardship issues is an investment that will yield positive results in the long run.

IMO, there are 3 common social services that should be provided by non-profit providers and paid by all taxpayers, because they affect all taxpayers during “dependent” stages of their lives.

Those services are EDUCATION and HEALTHCARE and COMMERCIAL INFRASTRUCTURE.

I have always objected to the concept of a profit incentive on essential social services like healthcare. I find the thought macabre and repulsive that if you cannot afford your insulin ($300 p/mo) , you can just die.

Or, if you cannot afford higher education you can just stay uninformed.

I think it is entirely appropriate for Biden to forgive student loans during a time of economic hardship. Just like it is appropriate to offer free weatherization for low-income people on older homes. It results in long-term energy savings not just for the individual but for the community as well.

Social services benefit the entire community. If not directly to all individuals, certainly as a secondary benefit of long-term lower costs to the community.

That is why social benefits are considered “investments in the future”.

Wrong, those loans will just be charged by government another way and make people pay with thier taxes another way. They say to forgive those student loans but truth of reality all the money the waste is not told to the public.

Education and Healthcare should be administered by non-profit organizations. and all tax paying citizens should contribute according to ability to pay.

I don’t hear you complain about tax cuts for the rich which shifts the majority of the tax burden to the middle class.

The recent 15% tax on certain big businesses will go a long way to pay for the increase in expenditures. Biden is not a free spender. He addresses only neccessary expenditures and tries to avoid raising taxes on the middle class.

I wouldn’t be surprised if that was “mentioned” by upper-level correspondence around the time of compensation adjustments.

“You know, times are tough and taxes are high…”

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Exactly! Businesses should pay more taxes and so should the wealthy. The wealthy and greedy corporations have been getting away with too much for too long and need to pay their fair share, instead making the middle class and the poor pay it all. Taxes, for the general population, should be based on income. The same for businesses too. Mom and Pop, small businesses based on how much the store earns and greedy corporations need to pay taxes on the money they rake in. In other words, Walmart would pay more taxes than the store on downtown main street.

There is a secondary effect. As the Mom and Pop stores pay relatively more on taxes they must raise their prices and lose any competitive edge they might have had in distance (location) and competitive pricing of goods.

So, not only do the supermarkets have a bulk wholesale pricing advantage, they also have a tax advantage, which causes a secondary disadvantage to the small operator.
The mantra is that a capitalist system will always balance price and demand , but it fails to note that in an unregulated free capitalist system, the little guy will always lose. The Big money always wins.

Possibly, but in my scenario, Mom and Pop pay less than the Amazon and Walmart. I also think we need to have Antitrust laws again, as well as other regulations.

It’s complicated, and great points are being made in the above comments, and I really don’t know much about it beyond people I’ve know who’ve been stuck in a weird, what’s described to me, as what sound like some usury jail, where a person can be faithfully paying for years, heck decades and barely make a dent into the principle. What’s up with that? What about usury and all that.

And if many other aspects of the lending lending business are every bit as usury as Student Loans, payday loans, car loans, etc., . . .

When a people’s guiding light becomes profits über alles - it’s no wonder breakdown and collapse follows.

Did anyone talk about that from a position of knowledge, I may have missed it. Be fun understand the dynamics of what’s actually happening better. Sadly the news has been its usual superficial info.

Biden’s new plan:
FACT SHEET: President Biden Announces New Actions to Provide Debt Relief and Support for Student Loan Borrowers | The White House.