Are you sure it's us who should be worried about them? I wonder what it's like from their perspective. It lost a little in the downsizing, but you get the idea.Unfortunately what you call overthrow others call bringing American/Western values to savages. We had to bomb them to save them. Yep.
Are you sure it's us who should be worried about them? I wonder what it's like from their perspective. It lost a little in the downsizing, but you get the idea.Unfortunately what you call overthrow others call bringing American/Western values to savages. Actually, the West also has plenty of savagery in its history, including recent history. However, it has certainly progressed significantly in terms of looking at religions with human common sense and reasoning, resulting into a lot of respect for people irrespective of religious affiliations and into quite a bit of abandoning of religions. As for the fact that Iran did not overthrow any foreign government but the USA did, it does not make Iran a better nation. If Iran were better than the USA, Iranians would not have come to live in the USA, Americans would have gone to Iran to live there. Iran is very much a barbaric nation that is an Islamic republic, with no respect for its non-Muslim citizens, who are very few because of Islamic savagery there over centuries. In Iran, women are still required to dress in "Halloween costumes", to paraphrase Sam Harris.
The West, according to Sam: it has certainly progressed significantly in terms of looking at religions with human common sense and reasoning And then: Iran is very much a barbaric nation that is an Islamic republic
Are you sure it's us who should be worried about them? I wonder what it's like from their perspective.I could only imagine what it's like from their perspective. Large swaths of the Middle East with no jobs and rampant heroin/opium addiction. Living in some cosmic, spaced out fairyland like Saudi Arabia, again very few jobs, kind of like a North Korean Utopia. The govt just makes jobs and pays people with oil revenue money. Stoning women who get out of line, chopping off thieves hands, Head choppings in the public squares. Let's go to some areas where it's common for gangs of middle aged men to snatch up little boys and gang rape them. Islamic Purity police walking around like the KGB. No alcohol or drug use allowed and yet somehow everybody is walking around bombed out of their minds. Places where women walk around covered head to toe. Girls get married off at 14-15 years old. Having to stop 5 times a day and prostrate yourself to some imaginary being in the sky while some guy chants guttural hymns from a tower or speaker. These aren't stereotypes...that's reality in lots of Muslim/Middle Eastern nations. They haven't left the Bronze Age.
As I read that VY, I kept thinking you were going to stop and say, oh yeah, like the Deep South. And where do you get the idea that âeverybody is walking around bombed out of their minds"? That actually sounds more like America, go to church, then to the bar where you bitch about the preacher. Do you not see it? Are you aware of the scandals in the Catholic church regarding âsnatching of little boys"? Have you not heard of people blaming women for getting raped because of how they dress? What fairyland do you live in? And drug addiction? Really? Americaâs thirst for drugs keeps the worldâs illegal drug activity well funded.
Iâm aware of the culture problems there. I never said they donât exist. It doesnât justify any of the policies or conclusions that you and Sam talk about here.
That actually sounds more like America,It doesn't sound anything like America. America doesn't have suicide bombers and fanatics blowing up market places and killing dozens of people almost every day. Go to the State Dept. website in the passport application section and pick out Middle Eastern countries and read the traveler alerts/safety tips for The UAE, Yemen, Egypt, Pakistan, etc, etc etc.... "Women be careful how you speak." "Dress conservatively" "Travel in groups" "Warning: some conversation could be interpreted the wrong way".....ie you could be mistaken for a harlot and raped. It goes on and on. Country after country. The website travel advisories speak openly about the dangers of being abducted and raped. Jailed for the smallest infraction. Family members kidnapping visiting family members and taking their passports. There's plenty of UN reports on this too. Al Jazeera has reported that some of the UN reports were being suppressed. It's a dirty secret. Muslim apologists like yourself do everything you can to downplay the issue. That's the best part though, people are catching on to the apologists like yourself who spread mis-information. Lausten you're on this forum all the time practically begging people to "understand" Islam. Witness your pleading with Sam on how you feel he should or should not interpret Islam. Or your goofy posts from you tube with your favorite female Muslim apologist giving a talk. It's kind of funny seeing as how this is a predominantly agnostic/atheist site. I always wondered why you post pro-Islam material. So you're biased about a certain religion on a Forum that is predominantly agnostic and evidenced based rationale. Hmmnn? And it's the culture of Islam that creates this awful world of poverty, and craven debauchery and inequality. It's not Western policies. Mullahs and Imams and Sheiks and tons of other practices that go back to the Biblical era.
Iâm not telling Sam how he should interpret Islam, Iâm asking him to interpret it all. All he has ever said is itâs the people who read the book and follow it. What does âfollowing" mean? To him and you, it seems to mean blowing things up.
Youâre a Western apologist, and you canât see it. No talking to either of you.
Really? No Western policy creates poverty? The way we dump our free food in Africa doesnât disrupt their farming economy, making them dependent on us for more free food? Thatâs not real? The porn and violence we export in videos, that has no affect? The sex trafficking industry that comes straight through New York? Nothing? Huh?
All the problems you point to are real, but they arenât going to be solved by creating an enemy based on religion. Iâm not biased for a religion at all. The problems are caused by the underlying values themselves. Values like tolerance, that you donât have.
All the problems you point to are real, but they aren't going to be solved by creating an enemy based on religion. I'm not biased for a religion at all. The problems are caused by the underlying values themselves. Values like tolerance, that you don't have.I appreciate your measured response. How much tolerance is any given person expected to have? The new word "Tolerance"? What does that mean? It ranges from hatred to acceptable levels or well thought out tolerance, all the way up to contrived "virtue signalling" or globalist/communist agendas. I mean the root meaning of "tolerance" is how well something fits. Or, how much can something or somebody withstand. Nobody tolerates everything. That would be ridiculous. So after that we're only left with what you or I tell each other to tolerate. I personally would be very conservative in what I considered how much you should tolerate. Because that's your business. I don't wish to impinge on your comfort, or unnecessarily burden you. So I wouldn't just tell you to "Tolerate it and shut up!" What do you want to tell me to tolerate? And be careful, because most likely I'm already tolerating it. So it becomes a situation of how much you are going to tell me to tolerate.
I havenât read this, I just randomly selected something on the paradox of tolerance/freedom. Iâm not going to debate it or tutor you about it. http://paradoxoftheday.com/the-paradox-of-freedom/, but it should be a good start to the rhetorical questions you ask. Nor will I respond to things like âpolitically correct" or âvirtue signaling". We have far more than what we tell each other, we have centuries of working out the values of civil society.
As for the specifics, you should tolerate people practicing their religions, as long as their practice doesnât impinge on your freedoms. Those freedoms are limited BTW, you arenât free to broadcast hate speech and slander. These are the things that, though you probably think you are, you arenât expressing and practicing in this forum.
So, it becomes a situation of justifying your actions, including speech, based on demonstrable evidence that what you do is not harmful to yourself or others to the highest degree that is possible.
And when critiquing others, your reasons should also be well thought out. If you blame a religion for someoneâs action, explain how that religion only affects a percentage of the people practicing it, including people who have practiced it in the past. And if there is some version of the practice that is worse than others, explain what that is. If you blame one religion, explain how others of different religions act the same way, again taking the past into consideration. And replace âreligion" with âcountry of origin", âeducation level", âskin color", âancestry", or whatever else you might consider using as your basis for judgment, and apply the same rules.
As for the specifics, you should tolerate people practicing their religions,I generally do. I don't pay it any attention really. It doesn't affect me. Besides, here in America their freedom to practice their religion is protected. I'm curious how much do Muslims in other countries tolerate others practicing other religions? See, these are the folks we don't need coming to the US.
And when critiquing others, your reasons should also be well thought out.I'm not critiquing "others" per se. I'm critiquing a social-political-religious system that exists in other countries. That social-political-religious system is diametrically opposed to everything the US stands for. It has none of the freedoms and tolerances you are so passionate about. And I'm against people from those systems and who support those systems, from coming to the US. And I can be. Legally and morally. That's my right. It's how the US is set-up. People voice their concerns for or against, and laws change. Restrictions are tightened. As far as being "well thought out". It is. As I've already explained dozens of nations around the world are thinking it out very carefully.
One of these days I will get over my fascination with minds like yours, but Iâm stuck for now.
You generally do? No, you donât. How often have you brought up how Muslims pray 5 times per day just in this thread? There is nothing inherent in prayer that causes one to fly planes into buildings.
There is no difference between âothers" and the system you keep talking about. Of course there are other countries that arenât like ours. Should we build a wall around the entire country? It takes 17 countries to contribute to the creation of cell phone, so make that work somehow. What part of, some people want to leave those systems, do you not understand? It is not moral at all to benefit from the resources of the rest of the world, and not allow others some of those benefits or return some of what was given to you by past generations (and is protected for you by a military) in some way, shape or form.
Iâm glad you at least admitted that laws change. I was starting to wonder if you understood that. What you have not thought out is that the intolerance by others is not justification for your intolerance. Thatâs childish tit for tat. You can have some criteria for how to become a citizen, or even just to visit, but arbitrarily selecting countries to exclude from immigration based on the majority religion or the current government, thatâs completely unreasonable and against everything this country stands for.
You generally do? No, you donât. How often have you brought up how Muslims pray 5 times per day just in this thread? There is nothing inherent in prayer that causes one to fly planes into buildings.I brought it up just once. Can you find other examples? Yeah there are things inherent in prayer that makes people do crazy things. We talk about it all the time in this forum. Religion is an enabler of people to believe in after-lives and an accountability to only gods and ideologies. Prayer is the act of communicating with a supernatural power. A supernatural power that is described in various "holy books" that may bestow rewards on people and offers up salvation and redemption. In many, many videos and audio recordings of terrorist acts one can clearly hear the terrorists praying "allahu ackbar". Just one example would be Flight 93 on 9/11. The transcripts from the cockpit reveal the terrorists were praying to allah in the midst of their suicide run.
You generally do? No, you donât. How often have you brought up how Muslims pray 5 times per day just in this thread? There is nothing inherent in prayer that causes one to fly planes into buildings.I brought it up just once. Can you find other examples? Yeah there are things inherent in prayer that makes people do crazy things. We talk about it all the time in this forum. Religion is an enabler of people to believe in after-lives and an accountability to only gods and ideologies. Prayer is the act of communicating with a supernatural power. A supernatural power that is described in various "holy books" that may bestow rewards on people and offers up salvation and redemption. In many, many videos and audio recordings of terrorist acts one can clearly hear the terrorists praying "allahu ackbar". Just one example would be Flight 93 on 9/11. The transcripts from the cockpit reveal the terrorists were praying to allah in the midst of their suicide run. Okay, maybe I'm conflating other conversations, but my point was, you often mention the mundane parts of religion as if they are the problem. Saying, "they prayer 5 times a day" as if that proves they are crazy. You lay it out in detail here. But you do it here in a more generic sense. So if the above is true, why aren't we kicking the Westboro baptists out of the country? Or any number of churches that are directly connected to people bombing abortion clinics or whatever else god tells them to do. Why aren't we making all religion illegal?
I think this is very close to your thought process, both of you.
Iâm curious how much do Muslims in other countries tolerate others practicing other religions?
I wish you would answer this question.
Seeing as how youâre all about tolerance and defending the Islamic religion.
Tolerance, right!
Islam is the least tolerant religion in the world. By far.
Iâm curious how much do Muslims in other countries tolerate others practicing other religions? I wish you would answer this question. Seeing as how you're all about tolerance and defending the Islamic religion. Tolerance, right! Islam is the least tolerant religion in the world. By far.I addressed that question with this
What you have not thought out is that the intolerance by others is not justification for your intolerance. Thatâs childish tit for tat.Sometimes I will tell you your questions are malformed, evasive or just plain messed up. My not giving you the answer you want does not prove anything. Obviously there are many intolerant Muslims, intolerant of human rights. That kind of intolerance is wrong. Have you read up on the paradox of tolerance yet? You seem to be struggling with that. It's a pretty important part of forming your moral code. In no way have I ever defended the Islamic religion. I have defended the right of others to practice their religion and I've defended people's right to choose to label themselves however they want and still choose whatever personal rules to live by they want, regardless of whether or not I think their label matches their personal definition. Again, within the overriding rules of a just society. There is no one source for those rules, although the US Constitution is a pretty good start, or the UN universal declaration of human rights.
What you have not thought out is that the intolerance by others is not justification for your intolerance. Thatâs childish tit for tat.Sure it is. It's not childish. That's how humans behave naturally. That's how people get hanged for war crimes and imprisoned for human rights violations. That's how people get angry when people cut in line at the grocery store.
Have you read up on the paradox of tolerance yet? You seem to be struggling with that. It's a pretty important part of forming your moral code.No, no I haven't. I don't plan on reading it. I don't read anything people put links to on here. I also tend to shun advice from people who give me suggestions about forming "moral codes".
In no way have I ever defended the Islamic religion.Yeah, you're doing it right now. You've been doing it on here forever. I pay very close attention to the regular members on here. I mean that's fine. That's your bag. No harm-no foul. But don't try to say you don't promote Islam on here. The minute someone on here speaks bad about Muslims you're all over it. I don't see you running to the defense of Christians every time they get bashed around here. In fact you've used Christians as a childish tit for tat deflection repeatedly in this thread alone. Or you're posting your favorite podcast from some reformed Muslim in another thread, and beseeching everyone to listen to it. Why? That's what I want to know.
Well, I guess this has run its course. Hitler. There ya go.
So, itâs not childish, but itâs why people get mad at someone âcutting" in line. Think about it.
You can look up the paradox of tolerance for yourself. Karl Popper is a good source on it. But âdo your own research". You can be as immoral as you want, but you should be able to understand the concept of âI am intolerant of intolerance".
If you refuse to see the difference between defending a religion and defending the right of religious freedom, I donât know what else to say. I jump on people who are prejudice, who assume someone who comes from a majority Muslim country has certain traits and certain thoughts. The Muslim I think I have linked to is Majid Nawwaz, who runs an organization specifically against Islamic terrorism, but thatâs too subtle for you, a Muslim who is against terrorism. And the discussions on Christians in this forum almost always differentiate between a mainstream Christians and a crazy fundamentalists. Itâs more natural, because we come in contact mainstream Christians every day.
Let me ask you this. At what point do right off a âMuslim". Do you assume that if an 8 year old girl wants to wear a hajib like her mother, sheâs already too far gone? Or when sheâs 13 and gets sent off to an arranged marriage, is she now beyond reform? Or do you wait until she is 18, at which point she could find a book on Western history or google her own religion, that is, if the men in her life would let her. Is she making her own choices at that point? How do you decide she is someone who doesnât deserve a chance for a better life in a free country?
I don't read anything people put links to on here. I also tend to shun advice from people who give me suggestions about forming "moral codes".Thank you for admitting your closed mindedness publicly. Seeing as how this is a forum for rational discussion and developing ideas it is obvious you are useless as a member here. Maybe one day you'll realize you need to keep an open mind to be a wise person, then decided to grow up and act like a rational human being. In the meantime you'll keep your mind closed so you can retain your comforting delusions. I'm not going to waste any more time on you.
I'm not going to waste any more time on you.You've said that before. And yet here you are again. Stop wasting your time. Go make a birdhouse or a footstool. You still doing the woodcraft hobby?