There is a perception, including guilty feeling, in the USA/West that our foreign policies are to be blamed for the acts of hatred, fanaticism and terrorism that are being committed in the world by people who identify themselves as Muslims. While there are some factual basis for this perception, there are a lot more facts in the world that show that the vices in question are not just against the West, nor are the Western foreign policies the primary reasons for them.
Here is a latest example: Saudi Arabia declares all atheists are terrorists in new law to crack down on political dissidents: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/saudi-arabia-declares-all-atheists-are-terrorists-in-new-law-to-crack-down-on-political-dissidents-9228389.html
I have mentioned several other examples in the CFI forums recently: Here are three of them: a) In 1971 there was a genocide committed by Pakistani military and their local Muslim collaborators in East Bengal (Bangladesh). Most of the murder and rape victims (of the somewhat exaggeratedly claimed 3 million and 200,000, respectively, by the government of Bangladesh) were Hindus, who were targeted indiscriminately for just being Hindus. Most of those victims were absolutely innocent people who did not even shout a slogan against Pakistan, let alone fighting for anything; they just wanted to live in their ancestral homeland of centuries peacefully with no hatred against any kind of people. b) In 2012, 50 Buddhist homes and 12 Buddhist temples were burned by Muslim mobs in Bangladesh just because one Buddhist youth’s Facebook page was tagged by someone with a picture of the Koran with a shoe on it. c) In 2013, over a 100 Christian homes were burned by Pakistani Muslim mobs just because a 14 year old girl of that community was accused of burning a page of the Koran.
While I do not have much time for this forum, on this thread I plan to add more news items, where human dignity and rights are trampled by Islamic fanaticism, as they emerge.
Readers/participants, please be advised that it is not about hating Muslims; it is about seeking human dignity and rights for all kinds of people, including those that call themselves Muslims and perpetrate and accept acts of injustice and hatred due to their religious brainwash.
What we are told in the news broadcasts very seldom journey into the particularizing of what lead to the motives of the actions. What we end up with is one of the common denominators of the participating subordinating parties. In this case the Muslims religion.
Years ago I talk to a friend from Lebanon about why they were having all this religious fighting taking place in his country. What he told me, made me realize that it was not about the religion at all. It was about items like banking, water rights, taxes, education and etcetera. The churches congregate people with common disgruntled issues that may not have anything to do with religion. And these issues don’t seem to have political or legal solutions of venting what may have taken years or generations of building frustrations in the people. Point being, was the Facebook picture the real reason behind the religious reaction? Or was it other issues that have built up overtime and the Facebook action was the result of the release of these frustration buildups?
Here in America, I think a lot of people believe our system and understandings of methods of operation can be applied to the understanding of these news reports from around the world. This sometimes this not the case. There are civilization laws and methods that we don’t always understand and therefore are never reported in the news reports. We really need to apply the human factors and common sense into the conclusions of these news reports.
Your idea is a good point and I totally agree.
Thanks for your comments, Mike.
Pakistan has been a hub of suicide bombing, where the less powerful Shia Muslims have also been targeted over the years. Here is a recent example of the senseless loss of 25 human lives in a Sunni mosque. http://www.reuters.com/article/us-pakistan-attack-idUSKCN11M141
While power-play could have been a factor for people who motivated/directed him, what was the suicide bomber thinking when he committed this act? As per his thoughts, what he was trying to accomplish must have been worth more than his own life on Earth! He must have been mentally sick. And what caused that? Was it really anything like Western foreign policy?
There is a perception, including guilty feeling, in the USA/West that our foreign policies are to be blamed for the acts of hatred, fanaticism and terrorism that are being committed in the world by people who identify themselves as Muslims. While there are some factual basis for this perception, there are a lot more facts in the world that show that the vices in question are not just against the West, nor are the Western foreign policies the primary reasons for them.You skip over the history in a single bound. The fact that muslim fanatics are also fighting each other, doesn't really bear on the historical realities that were imposed on the region by Western "interests."
America, Oil, and War in the Middle East Toby Craig Jones http://jah.oxfordjournals.org/content/99/1/208.full
Destabilizing The Middle East: A Historical Perspective of US Foreign Policy By Jon Kofas. http://thedailyjournalist.com/the-historian/destabilizing-the-middle-east-a-historical-perspective-of-us-foreign-policy/Or here's one that really nails the west to the wall. Of course you can rail that Frantzman is way out there - but bet you'd have a heck of challenge constructively deconstructing any of his points of fact - and showing it's totally false. Though that's what one should do first before denouncing the guy.
HOW THE WEST IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL THE PROBLEMS IN THE MIDDLE EAST September 5, 2014 · by sfrantzman · Wouldn’t be it be extraordinary if all the claims about the instability in the Middle East having their roots in Western meddling were true? https://sethfrantzman.com/2014/09/05/how-the-west-is-responsible-for-all-the-problems-in-the-middle-east/ By SETH J. FRANTZMAN In a July 17 oped in the New York Times the Middle East expert Nathan Thrall noted that “the West chose war in Gaza." In the October issue of Foreign Affairs American professor of Political Science at the University of Chicago John J. Mearsheimer reminded readers “why the Ukraine crises is the West’s fault." It reminds us once again that the world’s problems lie at the feet of the West. This is particularly true in the Middle East, all of whose problems have a Western origin.Just saying . . .
Responding to citizenschallenge.pm:
My response to your comments had already been in my comments that you commented on. Look at the highlight that I put on that now. You responded to my comments, “There is a perception, including guilty feeling, in the USA/West that our foreign policies are to be blamed for the acts of hatred, fanaticism and terrorism that are being committed in the world by people who identify themselves as Muslims. While there are some factual basis for this perception, there are a lot more facts in the world that show that the vices in question are not just against the West, nor are the Western foreign policies the primary reasons for them.”
In any case, I believe that most people who read my comments would realize that I have not called the West innocent of the turmoil in the Middle East; I have looked at the Islamic fanaticism, injustice and terrorism problem from a broader world perspective, and wrote, “there are a lot more facts in the world that show that the vices in question are not just against the West, nor are the Western foreign policies the primary reasons for them.”
I think there are too many naive, ignorant and dishonest politicians and intellectuals in the USA, who talk about the Islamic fanaticism and terrorism problem in terms of “why Muslim terrorists hate us”, as opposed to “why most religious terrorists/barbarians in the world are Muslims” or “why Muslims hate Muslims”. Of course, one reason behind Muslims hating Muslims is that some Muslims in some parts of the world serve the Western interests more than those of the people in their homeland; but a bigger reason is that too many Muslims are too much into who among them are respecting/following the so-called holy books/prophet/God properly and who are not.
Bain; saying things like “there is some factual basis for that”, does not cover up your blatant racism.
Bain; saying things like "there is some factual basis for that", does not cover up your blatant racism.Your opinion in this line about me is worth nothing to me, and hope the same to most people who read this thread in its entirety.
Bain; saying things like "there is some factual basis for that", does cover up your blatant racism.Your opinion in this line about me is worth nothing to me, and hope the same to most people who read this thread in its entirety. I left out "NOT". NOT cover up. Fixed it in the original
Bain; saying things like "there is some factual basis for that", does cover up your blatant racism.Your opinion in this line about me is worth nothing to me, and hope the same to most people who read this thread in its entirety. I left out "NOT". NOT cover up. Fixed it in the original Again, your opinion about me here is worth nothing to me, and hope the same to most people who read this thread in its entirety.
Bain; saying things like "there is some factual basis for that", does not cover up your blatant racism.Your opinion in this line about me is worth nothing to me, and hope the same to most people who read this thread in its entirety.Lausten made an assessment. Your disarming disclaimer is demolished by the rest of your one-sided diatribe. It's like the jerks, that come out "oh I believe CO2 causes warming" - then charge into maligning and slandered serious scientists doing serious quality work. Your words expose your one-sided hatred, or should I say agenda.
Maybe I haven’t read enough of Bain’s other threads, but nothing in this thread indicates racism. He’s making the very simple point that while Western policies may account for much of the Islamic terrorism we’re witnessing, it doesn’t account for all of it. Not sure where the racism comes in. Seems like a valid point, and one we can discuss in terms of percents. Like 50% due to western policies, 50% plain old religious fanaticism. And discussing this can be valuable in determining solutions. For example, if we can agree it’s 90/10 in favor of western policies, that’s where the focus should be. If something like 50/50 then that suggests more emphasis on the religious aspects.
Personally, I’d argue for something like 80/20 in favor of policies. That’s because so many of the horrible decisions made by pols going back to 1953 and prior made muslims hate the west. And they have long memories, unllike many westerners who think in 4 or 8 year spans, and only the last couple at best. Moreover, i think it’s reasonable to assume anger over policy increases religiosity and pushes more to extreme religiosity which then becomes its own problem.
If Suky were doing that, I’d have that conversation. Instead he says, “it’s not the political grievances”, then just lists atrocities and points out random facts about Islam. It’s rambling and it’s generalizing. It’s also consistent, there’s nothing redeeming. No nuance or subtlety, no attempt to recognize the problems of a young man who has experienced constant oppression while also being told he is part of a proud tradition. Then someone comes along and presents the dogma of that tradition as a solution to his problems. Not only that, you get guns and girls. But Bain doesn’t even seem to be aware that is going on.
Maybe I haven't read enough of Bain's other threads, but nothing in this thread indicates racism. He's making the very simple point that while Western policies may account for much of the Islamic terrorism we're witnessing, it doesn't account for all of it. Not sure where the racism comes in. Seems like a valid point, and one we can discuss in terms of percents. Like 50% due to western policies, 50% plain old religious fanaticism. And discussing this can be valuable in determining solutions. For example, if we can agree it's 90/10 in favor of western policies, that's where the focus should be. If something like 50/50 then that suggests more emphasis on the religious aspects. Personally, I'd argue for something like 80/20 in favor of policies. That's because so many of the horrible decisions made by pols going back to 1953 and prior made muslims hate the west. And they have long memories, unllike many westerners who think in 4 or 8 year spans, and only the last couple at best. Moreover, i think it's reasonable to assume anger over policy increases religiosity and pushes more to extreme religiosity which then becomes its own problem.Thank you, Mr./Ms. Cuthbert, for not finding any racism in my messages that you read, and for your opinions on the topic here. BTW: If you tell your first name, I would be happy to address you with that if you wish. You and others this forum can address me as Sam (my nickname), Mr. Bain (I am a man) or Dr. Bain (I have a PhD degree). Let me tell you my motto: "I am a humanist who is against any kind of injustice, hatred or atrocity on any kind of humans. In my book, even when a judge gives a serious punishment to a heinous criminal, he/she should do it to fit the crime, not due to his/her hatred against the criminal." But let us forget about mottoes of individuals; and let us talk about the messages, not about the messengers. When needed, I would try to comment on readers'/participants' comments; but I would try my best to ignore any attack on me personally from anyone. I have no interest/time to care about who in this forum might think what he/she is. I am also against dignifying stupid comments with my responses, especially when they are corrupted with personal attacks/insults. Now, as for why the Middle Eastern Muslims hate the West, the Western foreign policies on the Middle East are probably big factors. But most Muslims in the world do not live in the Middle East; and their acts of injustice, hatred and atrocities are against mostly innocent and powerless non-Muslims and against Muslims who are not considered Muslim enough by them. Here is one remarkable example: Abdus Salam is the only Nobel Laureate who was born in Pakistan. But his native country has disowned/disgraced him because he is not considered as a Muslim; and this is due to the majority sentiment there, not done by just a tiny minority fraction of the population. http://www.dawn.com/news/674855/salaam-abdus-salam http://www.dawn.com/news/738366/amidst-religious-intolerance-pakistans-nobel-laureate-fades-away
There is a perception, including guilty feeling, in the USA/West that our foreign policies are to be blamed for the acts of hatred, fanaticism and terrorism that are being committed in the world by people who identify themselves as Muslims. While there are some factual basis for this perception, there are a lot more facts in the world that show that the vices in question are not just against the West, nor are the Western foreign policies the primary reasons for them. Here is a latest example: Saudi Arabia declares all atheists are terrorists in new law to crack down on political dissidents: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/saudi-arabia-declares-all-atheists-are-terrorists-in-new-law-to-crack-down-on-political-dissidents-9228389.html I have mentioned several other examples in the CFI forums recently: Here are three of them: a) In 1971 there was a genocide committed by Pakistani military and their local Muslim collaborators in East Bengal (Bangladesh). Most of the murder and rape victims (of the somewhat exaggeratedly claimed 3 million and 200,000, respectively, by the government of Bangladesh) were Hindus, who were targeted indiscriminately for just being Hindus. Most of those victims were absolutely innocent people who did not even shout a slogan against Pakistan, let alone fighting for anything; they just wanted to live in their ancestral homeland of centuries peacefully with no hatred against any kind of people. b) In 2012, 50 Buddhist homes and 12 Buddhist temples were burned by Muslim mobs in Bangladesh just because one Buddhist youth’s Facebook page was tagged by someone with a picture of the Koran with a shoe on it. c) in 2013, over a 100 Christian homes were burned by Pakistani Muslim mobs just because a 14 year old girl of that community was accused of burning a page of the Koran. While I do not have much time for this forum, on this thread I plan to add more news items, where human dignity and rights are trampled by Islamic fanaticism, as they emerge. Readers/participants, please be advised that it is not about hating Muslims; it is about seeking human dignity and rights for all kinds of people, including those that call themselves Muslims and perpetrate and accept acts of injustice and hatred due to their religious brainwash.If you don't have time for this forum, why post anything? Find a forum you have time for.
Now, as for why the Middle Eastern Muslims hate the West, the Western foreign policies on the Middle East are probably big factors. But most Muslims in the world do not live in the Middle East; and their acts of injustice, hatred and atrocities are against mostly innocent and powerless non-Muslims and against Muslims who are not considered Muslim enough by them. Here is one remarkable example: Abdus Salam is the only Nobel Laureate who was born in Pakistan. But his native country has disowned/disgraced him because he is not considered as a Muslim; and this is due to the majority sentiment there, not done by just a tiny minority fraction of the population.It is very hard for me to get a clear picture in my mind about Abdus Salam. And it easy for me to confuse what goes on politically and socially in India with Pakistan. My understanding is that in Pakistan the caste system is used with quotas according to the caste systems as to who gets to go to college. So, naturally the question comes to mind, if Salam was sending students to colleges in other countries and his home country is not giving him credit. Was Salam at disagreement with the Pakistan caste system, thus fighting the government and the caste system? It was not talked about in either posting lead, but I can’t see how it would not have been a big issue. As the college caste system is a big issue in Pakistan today. My question is. If the caste system is an issue. Then is the caste system also a religious issue in your opinion?
It is very hard for me to get a clear picture in my mind about Abdus Salam. And it easy for me to confuse what goes on politically and socially in India with Pakistan. My understanding is that in Pakistan the caste system is used with quotas according to the caste systems as to who gets to go to college. So, naturally the question comes to mind, if Salam was sending students to colleges in other countries and his home country is not giving him credit. Was Salam at disagreement with the Pakistan caste system, thus fighting the government and the caste system? It was not talked about in either posting lead, but I can’t see how it would not have been a big issue. As the college caste system is a big issue in Pakistan today. My question is. If the caste system is an issue. Then is the caste system also a religious issue in your opinion?Abdus Salam was a Ahmadiyya Muslim. Here are three links that you can check out to learn about that community: http://www.alislam.org/ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/qasim-rashid/10-fabrications-muslim-leaders-need-to-stop-making-about-ahmadi-muslims_b_5854492.html http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/260964/do-ahmadi-muslims-really-speak-islam-dr-stephen-m-kirby In any case, the Caste System is a Hindu phenomenon; Muslims do not have that. (Although like all other communities, Muslims also have high, middle and low class kind of distinguishing mindsets.) The reason behind the persecution of Ahmadiyya and Sufi Muslims is that the Sunni and Shia Muslims do not consider them Muslims. It is a problem within Muslims due to their caring too much about who is following Islam properly and who is not. Abdus Salam does not get the respect he deserves in his birthplace, because in that country he and his community are considered heretics, fake Muslims.
It is very hard for me to get a clear picture in my mind about Abdus Salam. And it easy for me to confuse what goes on politically and socially in India with Pakistan. My understanding is that in Pakistan the caste system is used with quotas according to the caste systems as to who gets to go to college. So, naturally the question comes to mind, if Salam was sending students to colleges in other countries and his home country is not giving him credit. Was Salam at disagreement with the Pakistan caste system, thus fighting the government and the caste system? It was not talked about in either posting lead, but I can’t see how it would not have been a big issue. As the college caste system is a big issue in Pakistan today. My question is. If the caste system is an issue. Then is the caste system also a religious issue in your opinion?Abdus Salam was a Ahmadiyya Muslim. Here are three links that you can check out to learn about that community: http://www.alislam.org/ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/qasim-rashid/10-fabrications-muslim-leaders-need-to-stop-making-about-ahmadi-muslims_b_5854492.html http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/260964/do-ahmadi-muslims-really-speak-islam-dr-stephen-m-kirby In any case, the Caste System is a Hindu phenomenon; Muslims do not have that. (Although like all other communities, Muslims also have high, middle and low class kind of distinguishing mindsets.) The reason behind the persecution of Ahmadiyya and Sufi Muslims is that the Sunni and Shia Muslims do not consider them Muslims. It is a problem within Muslims due to their caring too much about who is following Islam properly and who is not. Abdus Salam does not get the respect he deserves in his birthplace, because in that country he and his community are considered heretics, fake Muslims. I see what you mean. It is a total religious element we are talking about. My understanding is that the answer to the problem is recognized. But do to today’s political methods we no longer have the audacity to deal with these types of evils. The method is, when you catch someone harming someone else because they are not the proper type of Muslim. You kill them, then you kill their family, then you destroy their house. It is my understanding that you do that a couple of times and the message gets comprehended and the problem is fixed. Working in the court system that is Muslim controlled, will not work. Just look at the population where the problem is. Using the historically proven methods should work. But don’t expect it to happen in today’s world.
I didn’t attack your character Sukhamaya, I attacked the quality of your argument and your lack of reasoning.
I didn't attack your character Sukhamaya, I attacked the quality of your argument and your lack of reasoning.I don’t understand your attack thinking. I was trying to understand the subject matter and Sukhamaya was helping. The reasoning is that you have people that are 300 to 400 years behind today’s thinking. And that they understand the methods used back then. Israel is basely doing the same thing today. They have stopped killing the family members, but the attacker and family home is destroyed. http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.690917
I didn't attack your character Sukhamaya, I attacked the quality of your argument and your lack of reasoning.I don’t understand your attack thinking. I was trying to understand the subject matter and Sukhamaya was helping. The reasoning is that you have people that are 300 to 400 years behind today’s thinking. And that they understand the methods used back then. Israel is basely doing the same thing today. They have stopped killing the family members, but the attacker and family home is destroyed. http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.690917 I don't understand many things you say at all Mike. I said something about Sukhamaya making racist remarks, maybe my wording was less than diplomatic. I don't actually care in this case. He and you point to things some Muslims do, then you generalize about Muslims. Call it whatever you want.