After This Jordanian Criticized ISIS, He Was Thrown In Jail, Then Murdered
Two paragraphs from this news article:
“It’s bad enough that the Jordanian government arrested Hattar, charged him, and was about to throw the book at him for sharing a cartoon on Facebook (a cartoon, remember, that jabs the Islamic State). What makes the story doubly chilling is that a sizeable number of people thought even jail was not enough.
Many threatened Hattar’s life, and one imam murdered him, presumably because he deemed the Jordanian regime insufficiently pious to hand down a punishment fitting Hattar’s crime. Days later, an Egyptian TV commentator went on the air to declare his support—not for Hattar, but for his executioner. The blasphemer had it coming.”
Is’t it sad that many Westerners think that the Islamic fanaticism problem of the Middle East was a creation of the West?
(For people who do not know, an “Imam” is the person who leads prayers in the Islamic house of worship called mosque.}
A great discussion between Sam Harris and Maajid Nawaz: Atheist Sam Harris and former Islamist Maajid Nawaz on the future of Islam | ABC News - YouTube
I am glad to see that Sam Harris thinks that the Western world has not created the phenomenon called global jihad.
While I agree with Maajid Nawaz that some 1.6 billion Muslims are not going to apostatize overnight, the peaceful equilibrium end result has to be that, however long that might take.
For now, more humans who have grown up thinking that they are Muslims need to start thinking like that they are humans, that they were not born with a stamp of Islam on them, that it is not their duty to defend Islam/Mohammad, and that they are not to follow the Koran/Hadits to the point of accepting any kind of injustice, hatred, barbarity, etc. That would be more like the fact that almost a quarter of the population of the Western world are atheists and agnostics now by abandoning Christianity. The secular and humanist intellectuals/forces of the world need to help the Muslims in that endeavor.
I totally agree with you Sam.
People around the world basically start out the same. It seems to be the environment they grow up in that causes a lot of the changes. Hopefully the internet being worldwide will help. But what I am seeing more of in the news, is counties wanting to control the data and messages on the internet. It’s like the countries want to program their population. Leading to the question. Do you think the Saudi family control over the areas religion is helpful? The reason I am asking is that I read that the main reason the world is having all this Muslim trouble right now is because we took out the leaders in several countries that once controlled the religious groups.
Do you think the Saudi family control over the areas religion is helpful? The reason I am asking is that I read that the main reason the world is having all this Muslim trouble right now is because we took out the leaders in several countries that once controlled the religious groups.
Killing Saddam Hussein and Muammar Gaddafi certainly helped the Islamic fanatics in their countries. Saddam was the most secular Arab leader of his time. In fact, the semi-European nation of Turkey had a good deal of secularism over quite a few decades because of the good dictator named Mustafa Kemal Pasha. However, democracy has brought Islamic fanatics to power in Turkey.
However, civilization of humans by dictatorial forces cannot last; it has to happen via people thinking with reason and giving up religious, traditional and societal injustice, hatred and barbarity. That is why I think Islamic fanaticism must be tackled with honesty and intellect of humanists, as opposed to guns and bombs of powerful nations.
Another senseless and hateful act of murders and atrocities on innocent people! Shouldn't people like us who live in safe zones think beyond "Why they hate us?" and address the question of "Why they hate?"?
Al-Shabab 'kills Christians' in Kenya's Mandera town
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-37571205
NOPE. UNTIL YOU START RECOGNIZING YOURSELF FOR WHAT YOU ARE - NONE OF THE REST OF IT CAN FALL INTO PLACE.
This is where the true lesson of Jesus and his Passion come in, but that's a different discussion.
Do you think the Saudi family control over the areas religion is helpful? The reason I am asking is that I read that the main reason the world is having all this Muslim trouble right now is because we took out the leaders in several countries that once controlled the religious groups.
Killing Saddam Hussein and Muammar Gaddafi certainly helped the Islamic fanatics in their countries. Saddam was the most secular Arab leader of his time. In fact, the semi-European nation of Turkey had a good deal of secularism over quite a few decades because of the good dictator named Mustafa Kemal Pasha. However, democracy has brought Islamic fanatics to power in Turkey.
However, civilization of humans by dictatorial forces cannot last; it has to happen via people thinking with reason and giving up religious, traditional and societal injustice, hatred and barbarity. That is why I think Islamic fanaticism must be tackled with honesty and intellect of humanists, as opposed to guns and bombs of powerful nations.
Next question, Saudi not included. Do you think dictators like Saddam was sort of a puppet or front man for U.S. interests? That we were sort of a quasi-dictator that wanted to keep our hands clean?
Tidbit, there may be one exception, Ancient Egypt. Where the dictatorial forces were religion and the goal was to keep the people happy by keeping greed away. Greed caused the earth to become unbalanced and wealth had to be redistributed about every twenty years. But that is so far back in time that we can’t know all the facts.
Do you think the Saudi family control over the areas religion is helpful? The reason I am asking is that I read that the main reason the world is having all this Muslim trouble right now is because we took out the leaders in several countries that once controlled the religious groups.
Killing Saddam Hussein and Muammar Gaddafi certainly helped the Islamic fanatics in their countries. Saddam was the most secular Arab leader of his time. In fact, the semi-European nation of Turkey had a good deal of secularism over quite a few decades because of the good dictator named Mustafa Kemal Pasha. However, democracy has brought Islamic fanatics to power in Turkey.
However, civilization of humans by dictatorial forces cannot last; it has to happen via people thinking with reason and giving up religious, traditional and societal injustice, hatred and barbarity. That is why I think Islamic fanaticism must be tackled with honesty and intellect of humanists, as opposed to guns and bombs of powerful nations.
Next question, Saudi not included. Do you think dictators like Saddam was sort of a puppet or front man for U.S. interests? That we were sort of a quasi-dictator that wanted to keep our hands clean?
Tidbit, there may be one exception, Ancient Egypt. Where the dictatorial forces were religion and the goal was to keep the people happy by keeping greed away. Greed caused the earth to become unbalanced and wealth had to be redistributed about every twenty years. But that is so far back in time that we can’t know all the facts.
I am not totally clear about what kind of relationship the USA had with Saddam Hussein before he invaded Kuwait. But I do not think Saddam was ever a puppet of the USA; although the US administrations probably liked his war with Iran. If he were a puppet serving US interests, he probably would have been alive and ruling Iraq now.
However, just like Islamic fanaticism was not created by the USA, the need for dictators in much of the Muslim-majority areas of the world is not due to the USA. In order for democracy to work for the well-being of people, the voting people need to have a sense of respect for human rights, human dignity, citizenship rights, etc. of all kinds of people.
In spite of all the criminal and inhumane acts that Saddam Hussein committed in Iraq, is that country any better now in terms of justice and peace for its citizens? Before we blame the West too much, don't we need to realize that the rise of ISIS there was after most of the Western forces had left Iraq, leaving a democratic government?
I am not totally clear about what kind of relationship the USA had with Saddam Hussein before he invaded Kuwait. But I do not think Saddam was ever a puppet of the USA; although the US administrations probably liked his war with Iran. If he were a puppet serving US interests, he probably would have been alive and ruling Iraq now.
Totally agree with you.
This is my understanding of what happen between Iraq and Kauwait. For about eight years in the eighties Iraq was in battle with Iran. The U.S. was backing Iraq against Iran. And we were backing Israel who was bombing Iraq. Israel kind of upset our backing of Iraq. Iran saw an opportunity to invade and conquer Iraq. Iran was building up the invasion forces and by the time the NSA figure out that Iran was almost ready to attack it was too late to for us or Iraq to stop the invasion. So we gave Iraq the chemical weapons that we got from Israel and the ok to bomb Tehran. The Kurds were backing Iran with the hopes of getting their country back if Iran conquered Iraq. So Saddam used some of the chemical weapons on the Kurdish town of Halabjah killing thousands of people. Iran now knew for sure that Iraq had the chemical weapons and could back up the threat to bomb Tehran. The invasion was stopped. Then Saddam ask Rice if she had any trouble with him invading Kuwait. She said she didn’t. Saddam invaded Kuwait. The U.S. then responded. And we had to respond in a way which Saddam could not use the chemical weapons on our troops. We had to do a massive and very fast attack and not allow Saddam any planes in the air. Now the weapons of mass destructions that came from Israel by the United States to Iraq are the chemical weapons of mass destruction that we have been looking for. They are the ones we took to Iraq for the Iraq/Iran war. We can’t find them. So what do we do? Claim that there were never any weapons of mass destruction. Even if we found them, they came from Israel to Iraq by the United States. If those weapons were ever used in the Middle East and the public knew they came from Israel there would never be peace in the Middle East. At this point Iran knew that chemical weapons of mass destruction and nuclear weapons were part of Israel’s arsenal and they want to be able to stop Israel’s expansion. Thus we have the Iran nuclear program.
Bomb attack near Cairo Coptic cathedral kills at least 25
Quote from this news article, “In February this year, a court sentenced three Christian teenagers to five years in prison for insulting Islam. The teenagers had appeared in a video, apparently mocking Muslim prayers.” Don’t these people, including the government of Egypt, need to leave the punishment for insulting Islam to Allah, the God of Islam? (Funny, the Arabic word for God, Allah, has become the word for the Muslim God, because Muslims all over the world insist on using the Arabic language for their holy imagination’s name!)
I think the civilized world needs to discourage anyone from being, or showing up to be, too much of a Muslim (or any other kind of religious person), and to encourage them to be humans with commons sense.
Bomb attack near Cairo Coptic cathedral kills at least 25
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-38280627
Quote from this news article, "In February this year, a court sentenced three Christian teenagers to five years in prison for insulting Islam. The teenagers had appeared in a video, apparently mocking Muslim prayers." Don't these people, including the government of Egypt, need to leave the punishment for insulting Islam to Allah, the God of Islam? (Funny, the Arabic word for God, Allah, has become the word for the Muslim God, because Muslims all over the world insist on using the Arabic language for their holy imagination's name!)
I think the civilized world needs to discourage anyone from being, or showing up to be, too much of a Muslim (or any other kind of religious person), and to encourage them to be humans with commons sense.
Unfortunately, "the rest of the civilized world" does not include the United States.
Matthew 7- …(4) How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ while there is still a beam in your own eye? (5) You hypocrite! First take the beam out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye. (6) Do not give dogs what is holy; do not throw your pearls before swine. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.…
Martin Kelly, publisher of a nonviolence website:
We never see the smoke and the fire, we never smell the blood, we never see the terror in the eyes of the children, whose nightmares will now feature screaming missiles from unseen terrorists, known only as Americans.
The Targets
It’s become a commonplace to accuse the United States of choosing as its bombing targets only people of color, those of the Third World, or Muslims. But it must be remembered that one of the most sustained and ferocious American bombing campaigns was carried out against the people of the former Yugoslavia – white, European, Christians. The United States is an equal-opportunity bomber. The only qualifications for a country to become a target are:
It poses a sufficient obstacle to the desires of the American Empire;
It is virtually defenseless against aerial attack.
A terrorist is someone who has a bomb but doesn’t have an air force.
USA's bombing list
Korea and China 1950-53 (Korean War)
Guatemala 1954
Indonesia 1958
Cuba 1959-1961
Guatemala 1960
Congo 1964
Laos 1964-73
Vietnam 1961-73
Cambodia 1969-70
Guatemala 1967-69
Grenada 1983
Lebanon 1983, 1984 (both Lebanese and Syrian targets)
Libya 1986
El Salvador 1980s
Nicaragua 1980s
Iran 1987
Panama 1989
Iraq 1991 (Persian Gulf War)
Kuwait 1991
Somalia 1993
Bosnia 1994, 1995
Sudan 1998
Afghanistan 1998
Yugoslavia 1999
Yemen 2002
Iraq 1991-2003 (US/UK on regular basis)
Iraq 2003-2015
Afghanistan 2001-2015
Pakistan 2007-2015
Somalia 2007-8, 2011
Yemen 2009, 2011
Libya 2011, 2015
Syria 2014-2015
Plus
Iran, April 2003 – hit by US missiles during bombing of Iraq, killing at least one person
Pakistan, 2002-03 – bombed by US planes several times as part of combat against the Taliban and other opponents of the US occupation of Afghanistan
China, 1999 – its heavily bombed embassy in Belgrade is legally Chinese territory, and it appears rather certain that the bombing was no accident (see chapter 25 of Rogue State)
France, 1986 – After the French government refused the use of its air space to US warplanes headed for a bombing raid on Libya, the planes were forced to take another, longer route; when they reached Libya they bombed so close to the French embassy that the building was damaged and all communication links knocked out.
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, May 13, 1985 – A bomb dropped by a police helicopter burned down an entire block, some 60 homes destroyed, 11 dead, including several small children. The police, the mayor’s office, and the FBI were all involved in this effort to evict a black organization called MOVE from the house they lived in.
https://williamblum.org/chapters/rogue-state/united-states-bombings-of-other-countries
Cherry Picking the latest atrocity doesn’t change the history of idiot mistakes that directly created that irreparable nightmare.(based on the choices made by tunnel-visioned self-interest-based calculations by a bunch of Dunning-Kruger patients, don’t you know)
Now we got the Trump Oligarch in charge, that should be interesting, (in the curse sense of the word)
1971 India Pakistan War: Role of Russia, China, America and BritainBy Sanskar Shrivastava on October 30, 2011
(http://www) theworldreporter(dot)com/2011/10/1971-india-pakistan-war-role-of-russia(dot)html
US and China Connection, A Little Known Fact
(All Excerpts and Sources from 929 page long Volume XI of the Foreign Relations of the United States)
US sympathized with Pakistan, because of various reasons. Among them two reasons were that: firstly, Pakistan belonged to American led military Pact, CENTO and SEATO; secondly, US believed any victory of India will be considered as the expansion of Soviet influence in the parts gained by India with the victory, as it was believed to be a pro Soviet nation, even though they were non aligned.
onday, July 26, 2010
How America Destroyed the Very Afghanistan We Say We Want to Create
http://the-mound-of-sound.blogspot(dot)com/2010/07/how-america-destroyed-very-afghanistan.html
If there was ever a dark farce it's been the West's meddling in Afghanistan. You know the Afghanistan our leaders told us we were fighting to establish? It actually existed, in the 1980's, until Washington decided to destroy it. Never heard that one? Think it can't be so? Think again.
You don't hear about it. Even written, historical references to what happened are difficult to track down. Much of the factual background is disorganized, scattered, and buried in self-serving propaganda - but it's there. It's a story that I've been putting together, bit by bit, for years and, as I progressed, it became increasingly obvious why this narrative has been buried by our political and military elites.
The Afghanistan we dream of truly existed. Then we intervened to destroy it. And in putting it down we ensured that country would remain shackled to fundamentalist warlords for decades, probably many generations to come.
The history of this debacle is well chronicled by Michael Parenti in Afghanistan, Another Untold Story. I've copied it in its eye-opening entirety here for your convenience. Read it and ask yourself how we came to be so grossly misled and manipulated?
and it just seems to get more outlandish all the time :down:
I had trouble with the URL's so replace the dots and it should connect fine.
In Pakistan, five girls were killed for having fun. Then the story took an even darker twist.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/in-pakistan-five-girls-were-killed-for-having-fun-then-the-story-took-an-even-darker-twist/2016/12/16/f2adbd5e-c13a-11e6-92e8-c07f4f671da4_story.html?utm_term=.90b05312dc72
Does the West have anything to do with why these people are barbaric?
I don't know Sam. How could the West have anything to do with it?
My guess would be Islam and the rampant drug use in those places.
Most of those Middle Eastern and Near Asian countries have a systemic heroin/opium problem.
I'm also told that many areas of Pakistan and Afghanistan for example have cultural norms that would absolutely shock
most Westerners.
Were talking about places that find it acceptable to kill one's daughter or gang rape youth.
Sometimes when we overturn a rock and look underneath we wish we would have just left that stone unturned.
Cherry Picking the latest atrocity doesn't change the history of idiot mistakes that directly created that irreparable nightmare.(based on the choices made by tunnel-visioned self-interest-based calculations by a bunch of Dunning-Kruger patients, don't you know)
Now we got the Trump Oligarch in charge, that should be interesting, (in the curse sense of the word)
I should probably add something like a disclaimer when I post news items, such as the one I posted last, in this thread. And it should be like this: "The purpose of posting this news item here is to show that a lot of the atrocities that go on in the world are home-grown, and not created by foreign powers. It is not to absolve the West of the criminal military activities that it has been committing in many parts of the world."
Having said that I think some punitive actions by the West, such as in Afghanistan after 9/11, were justified.
It is also critical for Western intellectuals to realize that the West does maintain a good deal of liberty internally, and that that liberty should not be spoiled by taking in foreigners who would not only bring in, but try to promote, their religious and traditional injustice, hatred and barbarity in the West.
I should probably add something like a disclaimer when I post news items, such as the one I posted last, in this thread. And it should be like this: "The purpose of posting this news item here is to show that much of the atrocities that go on in the world are home-grown, and not created by foreign powers. It is not to absolve the West of the criminal military activities that it has been committing in many parts of the world."
Why would you make a connection between these news postings and Western Military actions?
Absolve the West? What about the Military actions of Asia, Africa, South America, Russia and the Middle East?
Can you post these news items and absolve those activities?
I don't understand...Are you inclined to absolve other nations military actions, "criminal" or otherwise in the context of Middle Eastern and Asian
dysfunction?
To say nothing of the direct point of your posts to begin with. That is, that these places are endemically corrupt and dysfunctional.
Corrupt in all the meanings of the word.
I should probably add something like a disclaimer when I post news items, such as the one I posted last, in this thread. And it should be like this: "The purpose of posting this news item here is to show that a lot of the atrocities that go on in the world are home-grown, and not created by foreign powers. It is not to absolve the West of the criminal military activities that it has been committing in many parts of the world."
Why would you make a connection between these news postings and Western Military actions?
Absolve the West? What about the Military actions of Asia, Africa, South America, Russia and the Middle East?
Can you post these news items and absolve those activities?
I don't understand...Are you inclined to absolve other nations military actions, "criminal" or otherwise in the context of Middle Eastern and Asian
dysfunction?
To say nothing of the direct point of your posts to begin with. That is, that these places are endemically corrupt and dysfunctional.
Corrupt in all the meanings of the word.
Most of these kinds of atrocities have nothing to do with the West. They are the results of Islamic religious and traditional brainwash. I talk about them here because many people in the West mistakenly think that the West is the primary reason for the barbarism among the Muslims of the world.
As for the military criminality of the West, for example, who do you think benefited from the regime changes in Iraq and Libya? Surely not the sorry Islamic morons of those countries who are known as moderate and extremist Muslims. Surely not the Western tax-payers who had to spend trillions of dollars on these military adventures that made those countries more Islamic fanatic than they already were.
Let me give you another example. When the Pakistani military was killing and raping hundreds of thousands of absolutely innocent, non-violent and unarmed people, mostly Hindus, in 1971 in East Bengal, the USA sent its Seventh Fleet to the Bay of Bengal to help the Pakistani military. Thanks to the friendship treaty that India signed with the Soviet Union, the US military had to back off due to a threat from the Soviet military. Now East Bengal is called Bangladesh; and while Islamic fanaticism is a chronic problem there, the country is doing far better than what is Pakistan now (West Pakistan then) in terms of all indicators of civilization, peace, stability and prosperity.
Let me give you another example. When the Pakistani military was killing and raping hundreds of thousands of absolutely innocent, non-violent and unarmed people, mostly Hindus, in 1971 in East Bengal, the USA sent its Seventh Fleet to the Bay of Bengal to help the Pakistani military. Thanks to the friendship treaty that India signed with the Soviet Union, the US military had to back off due to a threat from the Soviet military. Now East Bengal is called Bangladesh; and while Islamic fanaticism is a chronic problem there, the country is doing far better than what is Pakistan now (West Pakistan then) in terms of all indicators of civilization, peace, stability and prosperity.
I appreciate your examples.
Obviously this was multi-layered Cold- War saber rattling on the part of the US and USSR in the midst of
a large war between India and Pakistan. Yet more pressure for control of spheres of influence around the globe.
(The Vietnam War starting to wrap up right around the corner of the Indian Ocean..a costly debacle for the US. But one which had
interests to contain the spread of communism. And then India's maybe provocative Friendship Treaty with USSR. I seem to remember some
tension between the US and India over Vietnam peace negotiations. I'd have to look that back up...India felt snubbed somewhere along the way..
probably justifiably)
Obviously there is much to this history(which I have never studied)that unfolded to have the results of the existing situation today.
Nukes, Islamic Fanaticism, India's rise as a mega-economy etc....
That's the world narrative. It has good stories and bad stories.
My point directly above is that you shouldn't let ideologues with a very narrow, prejudiced and limited view of history influence your posts
so much that you have to place unnecessary caveats in your language.
You're posting what you're posting and it stands on its own.