Don’t the nations of the world (both West and East) that can be called mostly civilized need to have policies that would help these people in this video move toward civilization?
It is very hard for me to get a clear picture in my mind about Abdus Salam. And it easy for me to confuse what goes on politically and socially in India with Pakistan. My understanding is that in Pakistan the caste system is used with quotas according to the caste systems as to who gets to go to college. So, naturally the question comes to mind, if Salam was sending students to colleges in other countries and his home country is not giving him credit. Was Salam at disagreement with the Pakistan caste system, thus fighting the government and the caste system? It was not talked about in either posting lead, but I can’t see how it would not have been a big issue. As the college caste system is a big issue in Pakistan today. My question is. If the caste system is an issue. Then is the caste system also a religious issue in your opinion?Abdus Salam was a Ahmadiyya Muslim. Here are three links that you can check out to learn about that community: http://www.alislam.org/ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/qasim-rashid/10-fabrications-muslim-leaders-need-to-stop-making-about-ahmadi-muslims_b_5854492.html http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/260964/do-ahmadi-muslims-really-speak-islam-dr-stephen-m-kirby In any case, the Caste System is a Hindu phenomenon; Muslims do not have that. (Although like all other communities, Muslims also have high, middle and low class kind of distinguishing mindsets.) The reason behind the persecution of Ahmadiyya and Sufi Muslims is that the Sunni and Shia Muslims do not consider them Muslims. It is a problem within Muslims due to their caring too much about who is following Islam properly and who is not. Abdus Salam does not get the respect he deserves in his birthplace, because in that country he and his community are considered heretics, fake Muslims. If Muslims don't have a caste system you should tell them. They apparently have no idea. …. Like castes elsewhere in Islamic world, Muslims in India have a caste system. Ashrafs are presumed to have a superior status, "while the Ajlafs have a lower status. The Arzal caste among Muslims was regarded as the equivalent of untouchables, by anti-caste activists like Ambedkar, and by the colonial British ethnographer Herbert Risley who claimed that 56 percent of Muslims in British India were of a caste equivalent in status as the Hindu Shudras and Untouchables. In the Bengal region of India, some Muslims stratify their society according to 'Quoms.' Some scholars have asserted that the Muslim "castes" are not as acute in their discrimination as those of the Hindus, while other scholars argue that the social evils in South Asian Muslim society were worse than those seen in Hindu society" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India "The Koran itself sanctifies the caste system condemning half of humanity to a lower level than men. For this read "4:34 SHAKIR: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great. "You can thrash a woman like a slave if you are displeased with her. "In Surah 2:228 Allah confirms the lowly position of women in condemning to be a degree below males. "There are authentic hadiths which show the low caste status of women. "Sahih Bukhari 7:62:115 Narrated 'Aisha: The things which annul the prayers were mentioned before me. They said, "Prayer is annulled by a dog, a donkey and a woman (if they pass in front of the praying people)." I said, "You have made us (i.e. women) dogs. I saw the Prophet praying while I used to lie in my bed between him and the Qibla. Whenever I was in need of something, I would slip away. for I disliked to face him." [Also 1.9.490, 493, 498]" http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/196426
Ashraf and Ajlaf caste distinction is a corruption of the Indian sub-continental Muslims by the Hindu caste system of that land. It is like giving up bad habits/traditions is hard. Islam does not have a caste system.
The inferior status of women in Islam is not really caste system; it is gender inequality - injustice and hatred against women.
Of course, the Muslims against Muslims discontent, hatred and violence in many parts of the world are mostly due to their disagreements on what is Islam and on who is following Islam properly and who is not. No other religious group suffers so much due to this kind of intra-religion disagreements.
Of course, the Muslims against Muslims discontent, hatred and violence in many parts of the world are mostly due to their disagreements on what is Islam and on who is following Islam properly and who is not. No other religious group suffers so much due to this kind of intra-religion disagreements.How much of those conflicts actually have economic/environmental roots, with the religion simply overlaid onto those tensions for added passion and hysteria?
Islam does not have a caste system.There does not seem to be a caste system in the Quran. But there are views that there is in Islam today. Is it enough to be an issue? I don’t know. It may be like Saudi Arabia declaring all atheists terrorists (starting post). Once you know the Saudi thinking, well then of course it makes rational sense.
How much of those conflicts actually have economic/environmental roots, with the religion simply overlaid onto those tensions for added passion and hysteria?I am sure a lot of Muslim crimes against Muslims are also due to economic reasons such as poverty and greed, due to reasons such gaining political power, due to reasons like two men falling in love with the same woman, and due to other emotional reasons. In these respects Muslims are pretty much the same as non-Muslims. The difference is that Muslims have disproportionately high percentage of people who wish to adhere to Islam and follow the religion blindly. Thus, there are a lot more crimes/terrorism for protecting and propagating Islam compared to any other religion.
There does not seem to be a caste system in the Quran. But there are views that there is in Islam today. Is it enough to be an issue? I don’t know. It may be like Saudi Arabia declaring all atheists terrorists (starting post). Once you know the Saudi thinking, well then of course it makes rational sense.I would not recognize declaring atheists as terrorists/criminals ‘rational’. In the world that is worth its human intelligence and civilization, there should be no law to praise/promote religion or to denigrate/criminalize lack of religion. Any kind of offence against the so-called God/gods or against the preaching of the so-called prophets should be left for the so-called God/gods to act on.
Ashraf and Ajlaf caste distinction is a corruption of the Indian sub-continental Muslims by the Hindu caste system of that land. It is like giving up bad habits/traditions is hard. Islam does not have a caste system. The inferior status of women in Islam is not really caste system; it is gender inequality - injustice and hatred against women. oh, that makes it perfectly all right then. All is well! Of course, the Muslims against Muslims discontent, hatred and violence in many parts of the world are mostly due to their disagreements on what is Islam and on who is following Islam properly and who is not. No other religious group suffers so much due to this kind of intra-religion disagreements.What difference does it make what causes it? It exists and it is destructive to millions of lives. Nothing anyone says or does is going to stop Muslim against Muslim discontent or Islamic-inspired terrorism or discrimination or reactions against any of it.
Atrocities on Hindus by Muslim mobs in Bangladesh on October 30, 2016:
An alleged Facebook post denigrating the Kaaba made these people crazy, and they attacked a community! (Kaaba is the symbol, located in Saudi Arabia, that Muslims all over the world face for praying.) Did the whole community denigrate the Kaaba? Surely not. Don’t these Islamic fanatics need to be humans and stop committing atrocities for their imbecilic feelings of loyalty/duty to their religion?
I would not recognize declaring atheists as terrorists/criminals ‘rational’. In the world that is worth its human intelligence and civilization, there should be no law to praise/promote religion or to denigrate/criminalize lack of religion. Any kind of offence against the so-called God/gods or against the preaching of the so-called prophets should be left for the so-called God/gods to act on.What you post makes common sense. What is rational sense about the thinking is that Saudi Arabia is mostly ruled by god, or the word of god by the Prophet Mohammad. Or the rulings of past generations. If no ruling or word from god, then a ruling by an Islamic scholar is used. So, just what is an atheist in America? One who does not believe in deities. Now what is an atheist in Saudi Arabia? Anyone questioning the fundamental beliefs of the Islamic religion as used by Saudi Arabia. Basically the Muslim Brotherhood is seen as atheists by Saudi Arabia laws now. Now, the king knows he is dying. There are a lot of young Saudi men fighting in the wars in the region picking up outside religious ideas. The king wants the Saud family ruling power to be transferred to a new generation without any trouble. The king does not want any outside religious thinking to contest the transfer of Saud power to the next king. Therefore because atheists are not covered by god or past generations this atheist law is to preempt any trouble. And by any trouble that means anyone contesting the Saud transfer of power. It is not really about atheist in the way we think about atheists. It is all about keeping control of the Saud power. Does that make rational sense to you?
Atrocities on Hindus by Muslim mobs in Bangladesh on October 30, 2016: http://www.thedailystar.net/country/rampage-over-hindus-bbaria-1306723 An alleged Facebook post denigrating the Kaaba made these people crazy, and they attacked a community! (Kaaba is the symbol, located in Saudi Arabia, that Muslims all over the world face for praying.) Did the whole community denigrate the Kaaba? Surely not. Don't these Islamic fanatics need to be humans and stop committing atrocities for their imbecilic feelings of loyalty/duty to their religion?The key to the problem is knowledge. The fact that the people are viewing Facebook shows that they have the ability to learn from the computer. If you take the time to break down the gods to the root of their power. You will find that it is some form of knowledge or control of knowledge. Hopefully the new generation will migrate to the god with the most knowledge. Which would be the computer. The other problems is that god in religion is only about a quarter of the religion. It will be interesting to see what paths are taken by the computer generation.
It is not really about atheist in the way we think about atheists. It is all about keeping control of the Saud power. Does that make rational sense to you?The Saud family power is one factor in Saudi Arabia. But it is also a fact that in most Muslim-majority countries, Islam plays the most political power, including having Sharia laws, constitutional statements like ‘law could not go against Islam’, and blasphemy being punishable by death.
Atrocities on Hindus by Muslim mobs in Bangladesh on October 30, 2016: http://www.thedailystar.net/country/rampage-over-hindus-bbaria-1306723 An alleged Facebook post denigrating the Kaaba made these people crazy, and they attacked a community! (Kaaba is the symbol, located in Saudi Arabia, that Muslims all over the world face for praying.) Did the whole community denigrate the Kaaba? Surely not. Don't these Islamic fanatics need to be humans and stop committing atrocities for their imbecilic feelings of loyalty/duty to their religion?The key to the problem is knowledge. The fact that the people are viewing Facebook shows that they have the ability to learn from the computer. If you take the time to break down the gods to the root of their power. You will find that it is some form of knowledge or control of knowledge. Hopefully the new generation will migrate to the god with the most knowledge. Which would be the computer. The other problems is that god in religion is only about a quarter of the religion. It will be interesting to see what paths are taken by the computer generation. Sorry, Mike, sometimes it is hard for me to understand what you wanted to say. But I do not think academic degrees, computer knowledge and use of the social media are adequate for getting people out of their religious brainwash. For example, when I was an undergraduate student in Bangladesh about 40 years back, there was hardly any burqa-clad or hijab-clad woman on the university campus; but now so many students and professors wear those Islamic garbs. Looks like those people are going backward in time in spite of their level of formal education.
Sorry, Mike, sometimes it is hard for me to understand what you wanted to say. But I do not think academic degrees, computer knowledge and use of the social media are adequate for getting people out of their religious brainwash. For example, when I was an undergraduate student in Bangladesh about 40 years back, there was hardly any burqa-clad or hijab-clad woman on the university campus; but now so many students and professors wear those Islamic garbs. Looks like those people are going backward in time in spite of their level of formal education.I don't get this argument, because you see some smart people acting like they care about Islamic traditions, that proves intelligence is not related to those traditions. That argument ignores the larger historical trend and focuses on a short term change of habits. It ignores other factors, like threats of losing your job, your family, or your life. It is only in recent history that we separated religion and politics, and it was done for political reasons. The separation is somewhat artificial at this stage. Religion is still politics, that is; it's lifestyles, it's culture. If you try to separate it like a physical trait, your data is going to be flawed.
Sorry, Mike, sometimes it is hard for me to understand what you wanted to say. But I do not think academic degrees, computer knowledge and use of the social media are adequate for getting people out of their religious brainwash. For example, when I was an undergraduate student in Bangladesh about 40 years back, there was hardly any burqa-clad or hijab-clad woman on the university campus; but now so many students and professors wear those Islamic garbs. Looks like those people are going backward in time in spite of their level of formal education.You are right. I don’t have an answer to getting those people to change their minds. That is going to be a long and hard process. I was concerned about the new generation. If the new generation thinks differently than the older generation, then it may create an offset of some kind. This can only be done with a change in thinking. There is where the computer comes into play. The computer is very powerful, a lot of countries like China are putting controls on the computer now. I hear the same thing that you are talking about happening in Israel State. The beginning Jewish Israel state was European, the new Israel is picking up traditions and even creating traditions of religion. Sort of the more traditional you are - the more religious you are. Type of thinking. But there is a young group that is not going along with the change. And they are more the computer generation. I think Lausten said it best. The fix will entail the separation of religion and politics. Which I don’t see happening anytime in the near future.
The fix will entail the separation of religion and politics. Which I don’t see happening anytime in the near future.Separation of religion from politics would require people to give up quite a bit of the religion, especially when that religion is Islam. I think the Muslims have more difficulty in rejecting aspects of what they think is their religion, most probably because most of them grow up seeing their parents, family and community too much into Islam, including praying five times a day every day.
It is not really about atheist in the way we think about atheists. It is all about keeping control of the Saud power. Does that make rational sense to you?The Saud family power is one factor in Saudi Arabia. But it is also a fact that in most Muslim-majority countries, Islam plays the most political power, including having Sharia laws, constitutional statements like ‘law could not go against Islam’, and blasphemy being punishable by death.
Atrocities on Hindus by Muslim mobs in Bangladesh on October 30, 2016: http://www.thedailystar.net/country/rampage-over-hindus-bbaria-1306723 An alleged Facebook post denigrating the Kaaba made these people crazy, and they attacked a community! (Kaaba is the symbol, located in Saudi Arabia, that Muslims all over the world face for praying.) Did the whole community denigrate the Kaaba? Surely not. Don't these Islamic fanatics need to be humans and stop committing atrocities for their imbecilic feelings of loyalty/duty to their religion?The key to the problem is knowledge. The fact that the people are viewing Facebook shows that they have the ability to learn from the computer. If you take the time to break down the gods to the root of their power. You will find that it is some form of knowledge or control of knowledge. Hopefully the new generation will migrate to the god with the most knowledge. Which would be the computer. The other problems is that god in religion is only about a quarter of the religion. It will be interesting to see what paths are taken by the computer generation. Sorry, Mike, sometimes it is hard for me to understand what you wanted to say. But I do not think academic degrees, computer knowledge and use of the social media are adequate for getting people out of their religious brainwash. For example, when I was an undergraduate student in Bangladesh about 40 years back, there was hardly any burqa-clad or hijab-clad woman on the university campus; but now so many students and professors wear those Islamic garbs. Looks like those people are going backward in time in spite of their level of formal education. Were there any women at all on the university campus 40'years agp? It seems highly unlikely.
The fix will entail the separation of religion and politics. Which I don’t see happening anytime in the near future.Separation of religion from politics would require people to give up quite a bit of the religion, especially when that religion is Islam. I think the Muslims have more difficulty in rejecting aspects of what they think is their religion, most probably because most of them grow up seeing their parents, family and community too much into Islam, including praying five times a day every day. The solution is simple. If you want to end the problems with religion. Study religion in school. Don’t preach religion. Don’t teach religion. But study religion. And study religion from its beginning.
...................If you want to end the problems with religion, study religion in school. Don’t preach religion. Don’t teach religion. But study religion. And study religion from its beginning.I agree. In fact, I think if people applied their human intelligence while looking at religions, they would not need much help from others to dump the religions, especially the ones that involve prescriptions from some kind of an almighty. That should not take much time either. However, I would not encourage anyone to spend too much time on religions. People need to study science, technology and humanities a lot more for the advancement of the human civilization.
The fix will entail the separation of religion and politics. Which I don’t see happening anytime in the near future.Separation of religion from politics would require people to give up quite a bit of the religion, especially when that religion is Islam. I think the Muslims have more difficulty in rejecting aspects of what they think is their religion, most probably because most of them grow up seeing their parents, family and community too much into Islam, including praying five times a day every day. The solution is simple. If you want to end the problems with religion. Study religion in school. Don’t preach religion. Don’t teach religion. But study religion. And study religion from its beginning. You are assuming that if people studied religion they would come to the same conclusions you did. Everyone with a seminary degree who still believes, all the politicians who must try to understand other religions but don't, the people who become atheist through reason, then return to religion, all are evidence against that. Freaking St. Paul is evidence against, and Muhammad even more so.
................ But I do not think academic degrees, computer knowledge and use of the social media are adequate for getting people out of their religious brainwash. For example, when I was an undergraduate student in Bangladesh about 40 years back, there was hardly any burqa-clad or hijab-clad woman on the university campus; but now so many students and professors wear those Islamic garbs. Looks like those people are going backward in time in spite of their level of formal education. Were there any women at all on the university campus 40'years agp? It seems highly unlikely. There actually were. In our Chemistry honors class of 40 students, there were 10 women; and none of them wore hijab or any other kind of excessive body covering. I believe the enrollment of women has gone up over the years.Atrocities on Hindus by Muslim mobs in Bangladesh on October 30, 2016: http://www.thedailystar.net/country/rampage-over-hindus-bbaria-1306723 An alleged Facebook post denigrating the Kaaba made these people crazy, and they attacked a community! (Kaaba is the symbol, located in Saudi Arabia, that Muslims all over the world face for praying.) Did the whole community denigrate the Kaaba? Surely not. Don't these Islamic fanatics need to be humans and stop committing atrocities for their imbecilic feelings of loyalty/duty to their religion?The key to the problem is knowledge. The fact that the people are viewing Facebook shows that they have the ability to learn from the computer. If you take the time to break down the gods to the root of their power. You will find that it is some form of knowledge or control of knowledge. Hopefully the new generation will migrate to the god with the most knowledge. Which would be the computer. The other problems is that god in religion is only about a quarter of the religion. It will be interesting to see what paths are taken by the computer generation.
The fix will entail the separation of religion and politics. Which I don’t see happening anytime in the near future.Separation of religion from politics would require people to give up quite a bit of the religion, especially when that religion is Islam. I think the Muslims have more difficulty in rejecting aspects of what they think is their religion, most probably because most of them grow up seeing their parents, family and community too much into Islam, including praying five times a day every day. The solution is simple. If you want to end the problems with religion. Study religion in school. Don’t preach religion. Don’t teach religion. But study religion. And study religion from its beginning. You are assuming that if people studied religion they would come to the same conclusions you did. Everyone with a seminary degree who still believes, all the politicians who must try to understand other religions but don't, the people who become atheist through reason, then return to religion, all are evidence against that. Freaking St. Paul is evidence against, and Muhammad even more so. You bring up some very good points. My feelings about this is that a couple of decades ago this solution would not have worked. But today there is so much data that has changed, added to the new data being discover and rethought of the past. Along with the new technologies that are available. That it should not be that hard of a task. St. Paul is a bad example being a nontrinitarian and religion was a mystery to Paul. Then Muhammad created his own religion, sort of like what Paul did. I don’t think we have many people today the same as Paul and Muhammad. Knowledge for the most part is nothing more than comparison. But it seems when religion is the subject today, the comparison never takes place. Most people don’t even know the name of their god. Just how bad is that? The goal is not to change their mind at school. But to get them to understand that they can compare religion just like subjects of math, science and history. Then instead of just the disgruntled Christians looking for answers, everyone will know that is OK to look for answers.