There is a big difference between lying and deceiving someone and encouraging someone to do something when both parties have equal knowledge about the correctness of what they are doing. An individual who presents themselves to be an expert ( a doctor, lawyer, financial advisor etc) who encourages people of lesser expertise to do something that the expert knows is wrong is committing a criminal act by abusing their position of authority. Someone who decides to start drinking and then drinks to a point of drunkenness is well aware of the consequences of their actions and a bar tender is no more expert in that area then the drinker is.
I’ve been drunk only twice in my life time (Freshman year in college) and while alcohol certainly removes inhibitions its a huge exaggeration (and an often misused excuse for bad behavior) for anyone to claim that a drunk individual was not aware of the consequences of their actions while under the influence. The girl in question had to be well aware of what she was doing and that she had too much to drink. Her friends were probably more aware than anyone and they did nothing to stop her. She’s not suing them though. She’s only gong after the people with the deepest pockets.
I think its also a lawyer created myth that a bartender can police and diagnose drunkeness. Intoxication is a spectrum. Someone doesnt suddenly become drunk. At what point does a bartender cut someone off? Remember he is behind the bar in club with possibly hundred of patrons. He can’t do coordination tests on everyone there every 10-15 minutes as conditions change. The person buying the drinks may not even be the ones drinking them. IN many cases these places are only in business because people go there TO get drunk and party. If they stopped everyone who appeared to not be 100% sober they would be out of business. Cruise ships are especially sensitive to this since many young people go on cruises for the express reason to party.
Really, Mac, are you claiming that alcohol level doesn’t affect judgement? As an experiment I suggest that you go to a large party (without your wife), carefully index about ten young ladies as to attractiveness, have about six martinis (no food) in short order and see if those ten ladies have become any more attractive. Then drive home through city traffic and on freeways and, if you survive, next day think back on whether you drove within the speed limit, made complete stops at signals, gave others the right of way. Later, ask anyone you knew at the party about whetheryour late evening behavior had changed. Then you might be more skilled at making judgements about whether achohol damages judgement of adults.
Occam
Better yet, since one often tends to forget or to falsify one’s memories, have a friend along to videotape your behavior from sobriety to 6 X martinis, then watch them the next day to see how well your adult judgement and behavior weathered the alcoholic assault.
Occam
There is a difference between knowing right from wrong and doing the right thing. I am saying that someone who drinks knows right from wrong as well as anyone else but drinking removes the inhibitions that otherwise hold you back from dong things you know are wrong. So letting a drunk person off the hook is like letting a sociopath or someone who is emotionally immature off the hook simply because they don’t have the ability to control their impulses when they do something stupid or wrong. In some ways its worse because the drunk presumably knew what they were doing when they decided to get drunk and did it anyway so they are more culpable.
Do we give criminals a lighter sentence if they are drunk when they commit their crimes? If not then this girl should not get a free pass for drinking to excess. She knew exactly what she was doing and did it anyway.
There is also an element of alcohol as an accepted excuse here. People who drink think they can use alcohol as an excuse for bad behavior and many people are willing to give them a pass with a wink. I think that more than anything removes inhibitions that causes people to misbehave when they drink. They think they can just say “but I was drunk, I didn’t know any better”
Quoting Macgyver:
I am saying that someone who drinks knows right from wrong as well as anyone else but drinking removes the inhibitions that otherwise hold you back from dong things you know are wrong.Sorry, Mac, but this is a case where you are quite incorrect. It’s much more than just lowering inhibitions against misbehavior. A drunk does not know but ignore his moral behavior when sober. That morality can completely disappear from what remains of the person’s consciousness.
I’m not claiming that they should be given a pass for anything they do to cause others pain or difficulty. Rather, they can do things that may harm themselves without even realizing it. An example: Many years ago I walked into the lavatory next to a meeting room. One of the other guys (who had had a great deal to drink) was standing at a urinal. As I finished he began to curse violently. Then I saw the problem. He had opened his pants, took out his penis (but it slipped back inside his pants) and began to urinate. He wasn’t even aware of the fact that he had completely soaked the front of his suit pants from crotch to ankle with urine until he reached down to close his fly. I assure you, Mac, that he didn’t do this just because of lowered inhibitions.
Occam
A ship's Captain should never let crew members or passengers wander around willy-nilly, drunk off their asses. There's way too many dangerous conditions.That's why the passengers are there in the first place. They can do whatever the f*** they want. Ohhh. I didn't know that. Passengers do whatever the heck they want on cruises. So they can assault other passengers if they want? Can they steal food from the galley? Can they throw other passengers possessions overboard? Can they try to sabotage the ships engine room? Go ahead MidAtlantic....answer these. Can you answer these questions like an adult? Like a cogent adult?They can try, and many will. Reckless behavior is inevitable on cruises simply because the people who go on cruises want that type of experience. The ship has to tolerate some crazy behavior, or people won't pay in the future if they think it will be boring. There's a way to have a nice time on a cruise without crazy behavior from fellow passengers. Avoid the big ships. I've been on wonderful cruises that hold about 100 passengers. They are not "Party Boats.". They draw a better clientele. The people who take them are not looking for a drinking party. Passengers are sensible, intelligent and interesting. The best small cruise I have taken was on the Noble Caledonia line (a British Company). The experience was just about perfect. Small cruises cost more, but IMO, the extra cost is worth every penny. I would never get on a big ship again. (I did once and it was tolerable, but it was also not one of the enormous ones.) Save your money for a real cruise and a rewarding experience. I hear river cruises are also nice, though I have not taken one. Lois
Quoting Macgyver:I wasn't saying that loss of inhibition is the only affect that alcohol has. It also affects perception and coordination and in extreme cases it can lead to unconsciousness and even respiratory depression and death. The thing is that this is a gradual process and at the point that you are feeling disinhibition you still have a good idea of right and wrong. The woman we are talking about here made a conscious decision to have a drink when she was fully capable of making such decisions. She then chose to have a second, and a third and maybe a fourth or fifth. Along the way at some point there was a person who was perfectly capable of making a good decision who knew she was getting drunk and said to herself "I think I'll have another". When she made that decision she lost the right to blame anyone else. Whatever happened beyond that point is pretty irrelevant. Even if she could no longer make an intelligent decision after that point she had already made a series of decisions to get intoxicated. So now she wants to claim that she shouldn't be held responsible for the first 3 or 4 drinks that made her incapable of making a good decision but the bartender should be blamed for next drink or two that exacerbated things. It seems pretty hypocritical. I also find it hypocritical that we as a society are very comfortable blaming an individual who drinks and harms others but more than willing to shift the blame of someone who drinks and harms themselves. Its a need we all seem to have as humans to find someone to blame for our misfortunes. It feels better if we can target our anger, embarrassment, and frustration at something or someone else. There's nothing "feel good" about saying "Gee I was a real idiot". If a drunk kills someone then we blame the drunk, but if a drunk girl falls overboard its not as satisfying to blame the drunk ( especially if you're the drunk girl). It feels better to find someone else to blame, hence the bartender becomes the target.I am saying that someone who drinks knows right from wrong as well as anyone else but drinking removes the inhibitions that otherwise hold you back from dong things you know are wrong.Sorry, Mac, but this is a case where you are quite incorrect. It's much more than just lowering inhibitions against misbehavior. A drunk does not know but ignore his moral behavior when sober. That morality can completely disappear from what remains of the person's consciousness. I'm not claiming that they should be given a pass for anything they do to cause others pain or difficulty. Rather, they can do things that may harm themselves without even realizing it. An example: Many years ago I walked into the lavatory next to a meeting room. One of the other guys (who had had a great deal to drink) was standing at a urinal. As I finished he began to curse violently. Then I saw the problem. He had opened his pants, took out his penis (but it slipped back inside his pants) and began to urinate. He wasn't even aware of the fact that he had completely soaked the front of his suit pants from crotch to ankle with urine until he reached down to close his fly. I assure you, Mac, that he didn't do this just because of lowered inhibitions. Occam
There's a way to have a nice time on a cruise without crazy behavior from fellow passengers. Avoid the big ships. I've been on wonderful cruises that hold about 100 passengers. They are not "Party Boats.". They draw a better clientele. The people who take them are not looking for a drinking party. Passengers are sensible, intelligent and interesting. The best small cruise I have taken was on the Noble Caledonia line (a British Company). The experience was just about perfect. Small cruises cost more, but IMO, the extra cost is worth every penny. I would never get on a big ship again. (I did once and it was tolerable, but it was also not one of the enormous ones.) Save your money for a real cruise and a rewarding experience. I hear river cruises are also nice, though I have not taken one. LoisLois we have been on a number of cruises. Its pretty easy to find cruises that don't revolve around drinking and partying but there are other cruises that are set up for just that sort of experience because there are people out there who seek that out. All the cruises we've been on were populated by families with kids and I never saw anyone drunk on the ship, but there are ships that market themselves to a younger crowd and if you don't allow wild partying on those ships that demographic will just go on another ship to get what they want.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2541485/See-terrifying-moment-extremely-intoxicated-woman-plunges-100-feet-sea-suing-cruise-company-encouraging-drunk-leaving-floating-hours.html So this woman drank herself into a stupor, somehow managed to fall over a railing ( not easy to do ) into the ocean and is now suing the cruise line for getting her drunk. She is an adult. She made choices. Nobody poured the alcohol down her throat. She did not just "slip" and go over the railing. She had to be doing something stupid for that to happen. She is lucky that a huge ocean liner under full steam was able to turn around, come back and find her in the dark. She should be kissing their feet for saving her life after a night of dumb decisions instead of suing them. Maybe the next cruise line will think twice before saving the life of a drunk guest who goes overboard. Its easy to blame the Lawyers for these crazy law suits but if it wasn't for human greed and the need to have someone to blame for our misfortunes as well as the lay people on the juries who hand out the awards the lawyers wouldn't waste their time and effort bringing these cases. We ALL need to start putting the blame where it belongs and expect some degree of personal responsibility in ourselves and others.I'm about to say something very controversial. It may even ignite an argument. But that is not my intent, and I am only speaking from observations of my own experiences. /disclaimer I'm finding this sort of thing (a grandiose lack of accountability) to be running rampant in a lot of women [in the news/tv]. Queue the accumulative angry roar of the crowd. I know that what I just said is a genderistic generalization, and as a feminist myself, I understand how destructive those can be; but this is not meant as empty finger-pointing or shaming. It's just something I've noticed, especially with female celebrities. But anyways, through my past girlfriends, news outlets, and my female family members, I can't help but notice that when they tend to be wrong (even obviously wrong) they sidestep blame, are reluctant to admit blame, and sometimes simply refuse to admit they're wrong. This goes double if it's something that happened in front of a bunch of people-- then they try to put the focus on you. I see this in the Kardashians, Paris Hilton, Oprah Winfrey show, MSN news stories, court tv shows, and with regular 'conflicts' in every day life. Now, I'm not trying to say that she's just being a certain kind of person who falls into a bracket of unacceptable behavior that I've personally made, but I'm just trying to get across that I am noticing a trend of sorts. Perhaps it's a confirmation bias, I'm unsure. But I see this quite a lot and I think it's a real shame. At this point, in my love life, I find a girl who admits fault to be one of my her most appealing attributes.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2541485/See-terrifying-moment-extremely-intoxicated-woman-plunges-100-feet-sea-suing-cruise-company-encouraging-drunk-leaving-floating-hours.html So this woman drank herself into a stupor, somehow managed to fall over a railing ( not easy to do ) into the ocean and is now suing the cruise line for getting her drunk. She is an adult. She made choices. Nobody poured the alcohol down her throat. She did not just "slip" and go over the railing. She had to be doing something stupid for that to happen. She is lucky that a huge ocean liner under full steam was able to turn around, come back and find her in the dark. She should be kissing their feet for saving her life after a night of dumb decisions instead of suing them. Maybe the next cruise line will think twice before saving the life of a drunk guest who goes overboard. Its easy to blame the Lawyers for these crazy law suits but if it wasn't for human greed and the need to have someone to blame for our misfortunes as well as the lay people on the juries who hand out the awards the lawyers wouldn't waste their time and effort bringing these cases. We ALL need to start putting the blame where it belongs and expect some degree of personal responsibility in ourselves and others.I'm about to say something very controversial. It may even ignite an argument. But that is not my intent, and I am only speaking from observations of my own experiences. /disclaimer I'm finding this sort of thing (a grandiose lack of accountability) to be running rampant in a lot of women [in the news/tv]. Queue the accumulative angry roar of the crowd. I know that what I just said is a genderistic generalization, and as a feminist myself, I understand how destructive those can be; but this is not meant as empty finger-pointing or shaming. It's just something I've noticed, especially with female celebrities. But anyways, through my past girlfriends, news outlets, and my female family members, I can't help but notice that when they tend to be wrong (even obviously wrong) they sidestep blame, are reluctant to admit blame, and sometimes simply refuse to admit they're wrong. This goes double if it's something that happened in front of a bunch of people-- then they try to put the focus on you. I see this in the Kardashians, Paris Hilton, Oprah Winfrey show, MSN news stories, court tv shows, and with regular 'conflicts' in every day life. The woman in this story just seems to be one of those who refuses to admit fault where it's due. Now, I'm not trying to say that she's just being a certain kind of person who falls into a bracket of unacceptable behavior that I've personally made, but I'm just trying to get across that I am noticing a trend of sorts. Perhaps it's a confirmation bias, I'm unsure. But I see this quite a lot and I think it's a real shame. At this point, in my love life, I find a girl who admits fault to be one of my her most appealing attributes.
Callisto I am not sure how much of that is a true gender difference and how much is just your personal experience. I have certainly seen plenty of men who are just as willing to blame someone else for their own errors. I truly think this is a very deeply ingrained human trait to look for outside causes when some bad fortune befalls them. When something bad happens to us its frustrating and makes us angry. Having no one and nothing to direct the anger at amplifies our feelings of frustration. The only thing worse is having to admit that we are to blame for our own misfortune so many people, especially those who are emotionally immature or not very self aware look for someone or something else to blame. Its comforting ( and sometimes financially rewarding) to be able to shift the blame elsewhere.
Callisto I am not sure how much of that is a true gender difference and how much is just your personal experience. I have certainly seen plenty of men who are just as willing to blame someone else for their own errors. I truly think this is a very deeply ingrained human trait to look for outside causes when some bad fortune befalls them. When something bad happens to us its frustrating and makes us angry. Having no one and nothing to direct the anger at amplifies our feelings of frustration. The only thing worse is having to admit that we are to blame for our own misfortune so many people, especially those who are emotionally immature or not very self aware look for someone or something else to blame. Its comforting ( and sometimes financially rewarding) to be able to shift the blame elsewhere.Right. And it's also worth mentioning that I am around way more females than males, so my control groups are asymmetrical and may cause me to conclude under incomplete parameters.