Abortion, Right and Wrong, By Rachel Richardson Smith

Bob said ; Life begins at conception. Terminating innocent life is murder.
That is not true. Not all conception leads to a birth. Most fertilized eggs are still being flushed down when a woman has her delightful few days.

If human life begins at conception, that would make a woman a serial killer every time she 'aborts" a fertilized egg during her period.

And why do we not count fetuses as people on the census?

How come when it is human it’s an abortion, but when it’s a chicken it’s an omelette. (George Carlin)

 

@Bob Life does not begin at conception. Terminating a pregnancy is not murder. The Jews believe that life begins at first breath, which is at birth. As for killing babies, God is the biggest murderer of all, which can be read many times over in the Bible. God even ordered babies and pregnant women killed. As for development, why don’t we call it murder when a pregnant whale or chimp is killed? After all the developing fetus looks a lot like a human fetus. There really isn’t any difference, but if you’re going to call terminating a human pregnancy murder, then let’s start calling killing other animals, especially mammals, murder too. Then of course, there is everything that Write4U said.

Write4U: How come when it is human it’s an abortion, but when it’s a chicken it’s an omelette.
Jews do not eat fertile eggs. Do you?
Sree said ; Jews do not eat fertile eggs. Do you?
Jews don't eat pork also, a left-over from the times people would get trichinosis from eating undercooked pork.

Kosher

The following types of meat and meat products are not considered kosher:

Meat from pigs, rabbits, squirrels, camels, kangaroos, or horses
Predator or scavenger birds, such as eagles, owls, gulls, and hawks
Cuts of beef that come from the hindquarters of the animal, such as flank, short loin, sirloin, round, and shank


https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/what-is-kosher#animal-products

IMO, Jewish cuisine wastes a lot of perfectly edible food.

I had a little farm with 3 horses, 3 pigs, a 1oo chickens (2 roosters), 2 goats, 1 sheep, 2 dogs, 3 cats.

Most eggs were fertilized and we used to sell them every day by the dozen to our neighbors. Our chickens were “sex links”, large red chickens which lay big brown eggs but do not brood, which we raised from a dozen mail ordered eggs in our bathtub.

Breed Characteristics of Golden Comets

Golden comet chickens are a great choice to either start or add to your flock. This chicken comes from crossing two other established breeds, the Rhode Island Red and the White Leghorn. If you’re just starting out, golden comets would be a good option as you learn about the basics of raising poultry. Here is golden comet breed info that may be helpful in your decision when choosing the right kind of chicken to raise.

Easygoing Temperament – Golden comet chickens are known for being sweet and docile. These birds will most likely follow you around affectionately, so they make a great breed for families with kids.
Excellent Egg Potential – Compared to other hens, golden comets are super egg producers. Golden comet eggs are large, brown and flavorful. You could potentially get seven eggs per week from your golden comet hen.
Color and Look – Only the females of this breed have the characteristic golden color. Females also typically have white lacing throughout their feathers. Male golden comets come in white.
Comfortable in Weather – Golden comet chickens can do well in both very warm climates and colder temperatures. That way, your chickens can get that outdoor time for longer periods of the year.


https://www.chickencoopguides.com/breeds/golden-comet-chickens/

We also had “Sister Teresa” a small Banty who did nothing but brood and once hatched 18 eggs from a mountain of 22 sex links eggs.

It was like a cartoon . This tiny chicken sitting on top of this mountain of eggs, constantly rearranging the pile so that all eggs remained warm. When they hatched she would lead them around the yard and after a week the chicks were just about as big as Mother Teresa herself. It was sight… :slight_smile:

We never had any problems with the yearly swarms of Carpenter ants. Within a day, no ants, termites or other ground critters were to be found around the yard.

Sree, at February 5, 2020 at 10:17 pm that’s playing dirty and reveals your disregard for honestly presenting your evidence.

let me try that for you

Lausten: How come when it is human it’s an abortion, but when it’s a chicken it’s an omelette. (George Carlin)
Or, "Lausten quoting Carlin ... "

But you make it read like W4U was the author, that’s sloppy, cynical, dishonest. The Right Wing Way, i guess.

“Sister Teresa” now she looks like a sweetie. W4U, I imagine you’re familiar with Joel Salatin and his grass farming system?

Many people first became familiar with Salatin’s complex and eco-minded approach to farming when he was featured in Michael Pollan’s bestselling book, The Omnivore’s Dilemma 2006.

Joel Salatin and his mobile Chicken coop, following the cows, timed to coincide with the grubs emerging from the cow shit.

Beautiful thinking like this could have helped save our biosphere for many more generations - had our gluttony not gotten in the way.

Sister Teresa got me thinking about his splendid system, especially the corn seeds into the cow pens. But it’s a long story.

That life begins at conception is a fact, backed by scientific observation, not a philosophical or religious argument. There is no point after conception in the progress towards a fully developed individual where anything adds life to the fertilized egg. Describing any point in the development of an individual after fertilization as a scientific “beginning” of life is absurd.

Some may attempt to salve their conscience or promote a particular philosophical or religious view by accepting some artificial notion of a beginning of life, and it may be fine for an individual to accept that view, but that won’t eliminate the science. If anyone wants to demonstrate that life begins at any point other than at conception let them constitute life from a dead embryo or fetus.

Life begins at conception. Terminating innocent life is murder. Murder can be justified. Men don’t get pregnant. Everyone should recognize that a woman has all the authority over her body and all the responsibility for her actions. No one other than the woman has the authority to judge her decisions about her body.
In this context, I can agree with Bob's statement about where life begins. If I were to disagree, I'd say your life began in your grandmother's womb when your egg was formed in your mother's womb before her birth. You could eventually claim life is one long unbroken thread. The real question is, when is a life a person as defined by our legal system.

Bob is playing with words a bit, but he makes a good point, “murder can be justified”. Instead of claiming a scientific definition of “life”, then calling abortion murder, we should be arguing what murder is, 6th commandment or however you want to define it. Everyone has justifications for when it’s okay to kill a person.

Lausten: " If I were to disagree, I’d say your life began in your grandmother’s womb when your egg was formed in your mother’s womb before her birth. You could eventually claim life is one long unbroken thread. The real question is, when is a life a person as defined by our legal system."

If I were to disagree, I’d say half of your potential life, your egg, … .

And I’d say the question is whether our legal system has any business interfering in what is and can only be the woman’s decision. The answer I accept is that we and the woman should tell the legal system to get lost. If society must get involved let us concentrate on prevention.

Bob said ; Some may attempt to salve their conscience or promote a particular philosophical or religious view by accepting some artificial notion of a beginning of life, and it may be fine for an individual to accept that view, but that won’t eliminate the science. If anyone wants to demonstrate that life begins at any point other than at conception let them constitute life from a dead embryo or fetus.
Is there a difference between a live fetus and a dead fetus? Depends on the type of fetus, no? We kill anything we consider pests.
Women, make your own decisions, be prepared to live with them and tell the rest of the world to piss off.
This I can endorse. It is a law of nature (and religion) that the creator of a life has the right to terminate that life. Does God have greater rights than humans? When God kills a completely healthy vibrant three year old, do we call God a murderer. Oh no, that's why we invented the Devil!

And to make sure Carlin is given proper credit;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPxi5wzmPRA

Bob said ; Some may attempt to salve their conscience or promote a particular philosophical or religious view by accepting some artificial notion of a beginning of life, and it may be fine for an individual to accept that view, but that won’t eliminate the science. If anyone wants to demonstrate that life begins at any point other than at conception let them constitute life from a dead embryo or fetus.
Is there a difference between a live fetus and a dead fetus? Depends on the type of fetus, no? We kill anything we consider pests.
Women, make your own decisions, be prepared to live with them and tell the rest of the world to piss off.
This I can endorse. It is a law of nature (and religion) that the creator of a life has the right to terminate that life. Does God have greater rights than humans? When God kills a completely healthy vibrant three year old, do we call God a murderer. Oh no, that's why we invented the Devil!

And to make sure Carlin is given proper credit; (warning crude language)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPxi5wzmPRA

Here’s where I draw the line- It’s the woman’s body. If the woman wants the pregnancy or decides she’s going to keep the baby and then someone comes along and kills them (this is important and goes back to wanting the pregnancy) or an abusive husband/lover causes the woman to miscarriage, then it is murder of the woman’s baby. If one murders her and both she and fetus does, then it is double murder. If she spontaneously aborts (AKA miscarriages) then that is natural causes and nothing can be said about it except maybe condolences. (Yes, I had one miscarriage in my life.) Now, if she chooses to terminate the pregnancy for whatever reason then that’s no one’s business because it’s her body and the decision is between her and her doctor and maybe her husband. The husband part is important, because if they are not married and don’t plan on being married, then we go back to discussing her body. Even with her husband involved, the bottom line is, it’s her body, no one else’s and no can say aborting (medically) or spontaneously aborting (miscarriage via natural causes) a bunch of developing cells is murder. The difference is someone assaulting her while pregnant and making her own decision about her body. One is assault and murder, the other is not. What if she doesn’t want it and someone assaults her or murders her is it still murder of an unborn? Depends on how far along she is and if she planned on an abortion or giving it up for adoption and if anyone knew her decision about it. That’s really sticky ground, but if she was going to term and giving it up for adoption, then we’re back to double murder, if both die, single murder if the fetus dies but she’s just assaulted and injured. There’s a lot to consider before any man or any court or any person decides for her about what she will do with her body and what she wants to do. It’s all her decision because it’s her body. The development of cells (blastocyst), zygote(s), embryo(s), and fetus(es) is a very complicated matter and when two cells join to make a blastocyst that goes into cell division until it’s a zygote and the woman finds out she’s pregnant possibly having to make a decision isn’t an easy matter for a woman. However, that said, if a woman makes a decision ahead of time, it is often easier, especially if the pregnancy is planned. However, in the case of my friend I mentioned, they wanted children, but the decision to abort one that would not be healthy was not an easy decision, but she and her husband both made the decision together. That’s the way it should be.

Here’s an example of what I was talking about and what I call murder of an unborn or developing baby: https://rewire.news/article/2020/01/31/asylum-seeker-sues-ice-for-causing-her-miscarriage/ . Mrs Morales wanted her baby and now one in detention helped get proper medical treatment. What they did to Morales was inhumane. Her immigration status was a civil or misdemeanor not a criminal crime and if it were criminal, women in prison get better treatment. People can say what they want, but it’s obvious she wanted that baby, she wanted to carry the pregnancy to term and have her baby. What was done to her was criminal. It was murder of her unborn. Does this mean I’m pro-life? No, I’m pro-choice. I consider people who call themselves pro-life, anti-lifers for so many reasons- one being forcing an incest victim of 9 years (in South America) old to carry twins to term, risking all three lives would have been murder of 3 individuals, but the mother was smart enough to stand up to the Catholic Church and had a doctor terminate the pregnancy, thereby allowing the living to continue to live and the 2 who don’t know life not to continue developing into life and killing 3. The mother of the 9 year old and the doctor were excommunicated, but not the child, but I call what the Catholic Church does to women and young girls anti-life, not pro-life. The Church doesn’t care if women die. The Church doesn’t care if a 9 year old girl who’s not fully develop dies due a pregnancy or childbirth. It’s just a bunch of men going around controlling women. Now back to Mrs. Morales, same difference, men controlling women, including the nurse involved. It’s not the men’s bodies and that’s exactly what happened too. They didn’t care about Mrs. Morales and that she was pregnant with a fetus she wanted. So they treated her inhumanely, abusing and neglecting her, denying her proper health care, until she miscarried, because they didn’t like the fact she was Latina wanting to be in the U.S. (AKA racism). ICE needs to be charged with murder, not just of her unborn baby, but murders of the living too- babye, children, and adults, who were in their custody. There’s not much difference between forcing a woman to continue a pregnancy she doesn’t want or worse could kill her and causing a woman, who wants to carry a fetus to term, to miscarriage. Both are abuses of living beings and even murder. There’s a difference between a woman choosing to terminate a pregnancy and someone terminating it for her against her will. One is not murder and the other is, because the very act of carrying a pregnancy to term, leads to a living breathing being or birth, what the Jews call ruach (breath of life, God’s breath) which is received after one has their first breath at birth and once a person has ruach then we have nephesh, a living breathing being (human or animal) or a soul.

There’s the religious and the secular all wrapped up in one concerning birth and abortion, life and murder. One can’t murder what is not a living being, unless it is not in their own body.

Mriana said; There’s the religious and the secular all wrapped up in one concerning birth and abortion, life and murder. One can’t murder what is not a living being, unless it is not in their own body.
I agree, a woman has autonomy over her body.

Autonomy

In developmental psychology and moral, political, and bioethical philosophy, autonomy[note 1] is the capacity to make an informed, uncoerced decision. Autonomous organizations or institutions are independent or self-governing. Autonomy can also be defined from a human resources perspective, where it denotes a (relatively high) level of discretion granted to an employee in his or her work.[1] In such cases, autonomy is known to generally increase job satisfaction. Autonomy is a term that is also widely used in the field of medicine — personal autonomy is greatly recognized and valued in health care.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomy

v.3 said:

Or, “Lausten quoting Carlin … ”

But you make it read like W4U was the author, that’s sloppy, cynical, dishonest. The Right Wing Way, i guess.


Come on, stop getting all suspicious of a presence of evil in our midst. Does it really matter who said what? It’s the subject matter that matters to me. I don’t make any distinction among participants because (as I see it) personalities (including Sree) are illusions. There are only points of views and mindsets to address and sort out. Everyone in the conversation is just a voice in my head.

Write4U: I had a little farm with 3 horses, 3 pigs, a 1oo chickens (2 roosters), 2 goats, 1 sheep, 2 dogs, 3 cats.
Wow, I like the fact that you are a chicken farmer. I just bought a place (80 acres) in the mountains of West Virginia. The reason I did that was the wonderful eggs that came from a farm nearby. I cooked them for breakfast and never saw eggs that fresh and beautiful. There is no money in family farms and life is not easy. Why did you do it?
Or, “Lausten quoting Carlin … ”
I don't know what y'all are talking about

You quoted Carlin, Write4U quoted you quoting Carlin, and I quoted Write4U quoting you quoting Carlin without attributing the Carlin quote to you. And that got v.3 into a tizzy.

Sree said; There is no money in family farms and life is not easy. Why did you do it?
I'm not interested in money. I did it to gain experience and understanding of life style opportunities that lie in my path.

I could write several books on my life’s adventures, but I’m not interested in money… :slight_smile:

The reason I did that was the wonderful eggs that came from a farm nearby. I cooked them for breakfast and never saw eggs that fresh and beautiful
It could have been me who you bought your eggs from, except I live in Idaho and used to sell to my nextdoor neighbors, who reciprocated with giving us extra vegetables from their gardens.

All by all, I am content with my life’s experiences, if that’s what you are asking.

Write4U: I’m not interested in money. I did it to gain experience and understanding of life style opportunities that lie in my path.

I could write several books on my life’s adventures, but I’m not interested in money……


I am very interested in money, not too much though but up to a point, say $300 million. I can get much more experience then without the effort you folks have to put out. For example, I plan to let out, for free, the property I bought to people who want to do stuff like raise organic grass-fed goats, lamb, cattle, chickens or turkeys and grow vegetables and fruits. All they have to do is give me their meats and produce just enough for me to eat all year round. There are lots of guys like you out there who like farming, not the Trump-supporting deplorables who work the land for a hard scrabble living, but learned folks from the cities like teachers and professionals who are into green living and nature loving. I met a lot of them when I attended their farm to table gig. It was quite a party with real fine-living city stuff such as cheeses, honey, Swedish pastries and German bread. They even make craft beer out there in the sticks! It’s better than living in New York City without the taxes, crime and smog. And on top of all that good stuff, those folks are not dumb gun people; they can discuss philosophy and social issues just like you guys here.