Hatred saturated GOP absolutists - Fetal Heart Beat Laws

The boundless ruthless hatred of the Religious Right Wing is astounding.

Georgia GOP's abortion bill will hurt women https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/30/opinions/georgia-abortion-bill-hurt-women-hogue/index.html

(CNN)In 2017, public health researcher Shalon Irving died from complications related to high blood pressure just three weeks after giving birth. Krystine Toledo-Gonzalez died less than a week after her delivery. Sheriah Freitas, Judge Glenda Hatchett’s daughter-in-law Kira Johnsonand hundreds of other women in the United States die each year from pregnancy-related complications in an epidemic known as maternal mortality – a clinical name that does not do justice to the pervasive pain that ravages families and disproportionately affects black communities across the country.

Anti-choice politicians seem perfectly fine with the collateral damage that occurs when people are prevented from accessing care. This is not some theoretical concept—we’ve seen it play out plenty of times.Just look what happened in Indiana under then-governor Mike Pence. In 2013, a Planned Parenthood in Scott County closed after federal and state cuts to public health funding. That clinic was the county’s only HIV testing center. In 2014, an HIV outbreak in Scott County largely fueled by drug use and shared needles saw at its height 20 new cases diagnosed each week. According to a study in the New England Journal of Medicine, the outbreak could have been avoided and prevention efforts should include HIV testing.

When it comes to pregnant women who face serious health risks, we should ask, where is the outcry from those claiming the “pro-life” mantle? Where are their “pro-family” values for the children left behind from mothers who died preventable deaths? What kinds of policies is the “pro-life” GOP putting forth to curb these inexcusable tragedies? …

On Friday, the Republican-led Georgia state legislature passed a devastating bill that would only compound this crisis. Gov. Brian Kemp, a Republican, supports the bill, and if he signs HB 481, the state would ban abortions after a fetal heartbeat is detected – or as early as six weeks, before many women even know they’re pregnant. It’s time we take a long hard look at the party that claims to be “pro-life” but ignores the real consequences of its policies on the rights and lives of women and their families. …

Abortion, Right and Wrong
By Rachel Richardson Smith

I cannot bring myself to say I am in favor of abortion. I don’t want anyone to have one. I want people to use contraceptives and for those contraceptives to be foolproof. I want people to be responsible for their actions, mature in their decisions. I want children to be loved, wanted, well cared for.

I cannot bring myself to say I am against choice. I want women who are young, poor, single or all three to be able to direct the course of their lives. I want women who have had all the children they want or can afford or their in bad marriages or destructive relationships to avoid being trapped by pregnancy.

So these days when thousands rally in opposition to legalized abortion, when facilities providing abortions are bombed, when the president speaks glowingly of the growing momentum behind the anti-abortion movement, I find myself increasingly alienated from those pro-life groups.

At the same time, I am overwhelmed with mail from pro-choice groups. They, too, are mobilizing their forces, growing articulate in support of their cause, and they want my support. I am not sure I can give it.

I find myself in the awkward position of being both anti-abortion and pro-choice. Neither group seems to be completely right—or wrong. It is not that I think abortion is wrong for me but acceptable for someone else. The question is far more complex than that.

Part of my problem is that what I think and how I feel about this issue are two entirely different matters. I know that unwanted children are often neglected, even abandoned. I know that making abortion illegal will not stop all women from having them.
I also know from experience the crisis an unplanned pregnancy can cause. Yet I have felt the joy of giving birth, the delight that comes from feeling a baby’s skin against my own. I know how hard it is to parent a child and how deeply dissatisfying it can be. My children sometimes provoke me and cause me endless frustration, but I can still look at them with tenderness and wonder at the miracle of it all. The lessons of my own experience produce conflicting emotions. Theory collides with reality.

It concerns me that both groups present themselves in absolutes. They are committed and they want me to commit. They do not recognize that gray area where I seem to be languishing. Each group has the right answer—the only answer.

Yet I am uncomfortable in either camp. I have nothing in common with the pro-lifers. I am horrified by their scare tactics, their pictures of well-formed fetuses tossed in a metal pan, their cruel slogans. I cannot condone their flagrant misuse of Scripture and unforgiving spirit. There is meanness about their position that causes them to pass judgment on the lives of women in a way I could never do.

The pro-life groups, with their fundamentalist religious attitudes, have a fear and an abhorrence of sex, especially premarital sex. In their view abortion only compounds the sexual sin. What I find incomprehensible is that even as they are opposed to abortion they are also opposed to alternative solutions. They are squeamish about sex education in the schools. They don’t want teens to have contraceptives without parental consent. They offer little aid or sympathy to unwed mothers. They are the vigilant guardians of a narrow morality.

I wonder how abortion got to be the greatest of all sins? What about poverty, ignorance, hunger, weaponry?

The only thing the anti-abortion groups seem to have right is that abortion is indeed the taking of human life. I simply cannot escape this one glaring fact. Call it what you will—fertilized egg, embryo, fetus. What we have here is human life. If it were just a mass of tissue there would be no debate. So I agree that abortion ends a life. But the anti-abortionists are wrong to call it murder.

The sad truth is that homicide is not always against the law. Our society does not categorically recognize the sanctity of human life. There are a number of legal and apparently socially acceptable ways to take human life. There are a number of legal and apparently socially acceptable ways to take human life. “Justifiable” homicide includes the death penalty, war, killing in self-defense. It seems to me that as a society we need to come to grips with our own ambiguity concerning the value of human life. If we are to value and protect unborn life so stringently, why do we not also value and protect life already born?

Why can’t we see abortion for the human tragedy it is? No woman plans for her life to turn out that way. Even the most effective contraceptives are no guarantee against pregnancy. Loneliness, ignorance, immaturity can lead to decisions (or lack of decisions) that may result in untimely pregnancy. People make mistakes.

What many people seem to misunderstand is that no woman wants to have an abortion. Circumstances demand it; women do it. No woman reacts to abortion with joy. Relief, yes. But also ambivalence, grief, despair, guilt.

The pro-choice groups do not seem to acknowledge that abortion is not a perfect answer. What goes unsaid is that when a woman has an abortion she loses more than an unwanted pregnancy. Often she loses her self-respect. No woman can forget a pregnancy no matter how it ends.

Why can we not view abortion as one of those anguished decisions in which human beings struggle to do the best they can in trying circumstances? Why is abortion viewed so coldly and factually on the one hand and so judgmentally on the other? Why is it not akin to the same painful experience families must sometimes make to allow a loved one to die?

I wonder how we can begin to change the context in which we think about abortion. How can we begin to think about it preemptively? What is it in the trauma of loss of life—be it loved, born or unborn—from which we can learn? There is much I have yet to resolve. Even as I refuse to pass judgments on other women’s lives, I weep for the children who might have been. I suspect I am not alone.

When will they ever learn?

Never, so long as rationalists keep rolling over for them!

Pro-abortion never means that someone actually prefers women to have abortions over having the child. It simply means that they want women to have the ability to make the choice.

If there were a different prefix that could be used instead of “pro”, that misconception might not be made so often.

As it stands, this false moral high ground that anti-abortionists claim is impossible to fight. No amount of explaining your position can ever overcome the label, “pro-abortion”.

Maybe men should not be allowed to even vote on laws pertaining to abortion. Men don’t get pregnant. It’s not their body. Maybe that’s too radical of a position. Ok, men can have 3/5 of a vote.

Writer of the op-ed doesn’t establish a connection between this bill and Maternal Mortality – a set of problems which are not fixed with abortion. She is just throwing different unrelated stats out there for easily triggered people like CitizensChallenge to cry about.

It works.

 

thatoneguy - NO. You miss the message. Fetuses die all the time. Just because an egg gets fertilized doesn’t give it some predestined judgement to life a full life. The embryo need to overcome a series of hurdles before it can take on PERSONHOOD! Natural spontaneous abortion happens all the time, so why shouldn’t a mother have the right to sanctity over her own body and self-defense.

Guess the point is people die all the time.

Where is the GOP outrage that the children torn from their mothers - cruel and inhuman punishment if there ever was such a thing - have died.

What about the GOP chest-thumping right to lifers that also demand STAND MY GROUND right to blow away anyone they feel uncomfortable about?

What about the GOP love of wars for profit?

What about the GOP disregard for destroying our environment and poisoning people?

and on and on . . .

 

Sanctimonious monsters you phonies are.

Typical autistic inanity from you.

The op-ed is very poorly argued. That’s all.

You’re quite the one to talk. Still waiting for something of substance from ya.

Is name calling the best you can do?

Oh yeah, you must be a libertarian, that might help explain why insults and vapors is about all we’ve see of you.

What about this,

Abortion, Right and Wrong By Rachel Richardson Smith ...
or does your silence indicate it went right over your head? Or you just don't give a damned and refuse to read a word of it in any event? Which is it I wonder?

 

Man does a libertarian even exist that can sustain a constructive dialogue?

========================================================

<i>Oh and if you say it’s poorly argued, why not explain it in some detail. Then take a stab at Rachel Richardson Smith’s excellent assessment of the personal (not national!) crisis that is.</i>

 

<i>Oh, perhaps before we go further - mind if I ask you whether you believe God has a personal interest in you and that you ‘Know’ God’s Will?</i>

I’m sure this could use some rewriting, but that ain’t happening now. Still I figure I might as well toss it in.

Rather than name calling, why not try addressing specific ideas and claims?


NOVEMBER 18, 2016
Profiles In Courage - Dr. Warren Hern

https://citizenschallenge.blogspot.com/2016/11/profiles-in-courage-dr-warren-hern.html

There are a few brave insightful souls, who have stepped up already to share valuable insights and to help raise awareness. Dr. Hern has been a physician for 45 yearscaring for women during the most difficult periods of their lives. He too is concerned by the increasingly malicious Republican manipulation of the abortion issue for political gain.

Abortion is a personal crisis of utmost importance to a woman’s life and it involves her circle of loved ones and her community. It is a personal tragedy, not a state tragedy, the state has no morally justifiable reason for meddling in this issue of a woman’s sovereignty over her own body. Not in a country that boasts about being “free”.

Religious zealots demand it, cynical politicians and dogma driven PR masters use it as a bludgeon. All of them belong to the school of thought that if you don’t like a fact, or the truth of a situation create your own fictional fact and story, then refuse to acknowledge, let along consider, the validity of anyone else’s information, or evidence, or experiences. Rather than exchange constructive information, they’ll label such messengers enemies.

That’s not right and it’s going to get a lot uglier, real soon - seems to me heroes like Dr. Warren Hern at the Boulder Abortion Clinic need to have a huge community of concerned citizens and activists vocally speaking up to support the important work they do. This isn’t something for him to do, he’s busy being a doctor.

I’m talking about a citizens movement simply because you have a genuine treasure in that man and the services he provides. Not only that, Boulder citizens who value this man might consider helping create a security barrier around his clinic, grassroots neighborhood watch.

That’s not paranoia, that’s paying attention to what the Alt-Right is saying -
You’d better finally start taking it seriously, we’ve handed them our government, preparations are in order - rational arguments on a human level would be the best way to approach this. Violence only begets more violence. Constructive dialogue, teaching, learning, we need each other to keep ourselves honest. We need to stand up for what’s moral and right or they will bulldoze us.

Also it would help if Marsha Blackburn, Chairman of the Select Investigative Panel on Infant Lives of the Committee on Energy and Commerce received thousands, tens of thousand of letters explaining the reality of abortion and demanding that she stop her partisan witch hunt. Heck, I’d tell her more: Grow up Ms. Blackburn, look beyond your self-serving religious dogma and face the human reality of the tragedy of abortion* something the state has no business meddling in to begin with. Back off.

I’ve taken the liberty of highlighting some of Dr Hern’s passages.

  • Recommended reading:
    “Abortion, Right and Wrong” By Rachel Richardson Smith

TimB - Maybe men should not be allowed to even vote on laws pertaining to abortion. Men don’t get pregnant. It’s not their body. Maybe that’s too radical of a position. Ok, men can have 3/5 of a vote.

I would give up the 3/5 vote for never having to change a diaper. I’d be all for the women have all rights to the babies until they reach two years of age. Then they could have a father shower where the mother give rights to the father.

For me, this statement from the article is the bottom line and is an obvious truth:

Abortion is a personal crisis of utmost importance to a woman’s life and it involves her circle of loved ones and her community. It is a personal tragedy, not a state tragedy, the state has no morally justifiable reason for meddling in this issue of a woman’s sovereignty over her own body. Not in a country that boasts about being “free”.”

 

 

 

Thank you TimB,

Your opinion’s worth a lot to me.

Haven’t had much time for this lately* - but am impressed with your comments to Mike, here and in other threads. Well done.

We need more people willing to be as clear and rational as you strive to do.

 

What's Natural about Steele's Sea Level conundrum? Pacifica Tribune 3/20/2019

https://confrontingsciencecontrarians.blogspot.com/2019/04/what-natural-steeles-greenland-conundrum.html

Supplement - What’s Natural about Steele’s Conundrum? Pacifica Tribune

Steele, what’s unnatural about the Glacier Girl? Pacifica Tribune 3/20/2019

Considering the criminal dimension of climate science denial PR.

You’re more than welcome CC. I appreciate your perseverance for speaking truth, also.

This fetal heartbeat bill has the potential to hurt a lot of women in several states. Fetal heartbeat is detectable at 5 or 6 weeks. Some women will not even know they are pregnant until then. So the law (if the bill becomes a law) could effectively take choice away.

MikeYohe
Participant
TimB – Maybe men should not be allowed to even vote on laws pertaining to abortion. Men don’t get pregnant. It’s not their body. Maybe that’s too radical of a position. Ok, men can have 3/5 of a vote.

I would give up the 3/5 vote for never having to change a diaper. I’d be all for the women have all rights to the babies until they reach two years of age. Then they could have a father shower where the mother give rights to the father.
Ha-ha, that’s tempting but I like interacting with my kids before age 2. It is really more of the mother’s world at that stage, though.

1 and 2 yr olds are great! It is so easy to be the best comedian in the world with a toddler. I used to work with them and their parents. It was the favorite part of my career.

t 12:30 am #298478 Reply | Report

Citizenschallenge-v.3

Participant
What about this,
Abortion, Right and Wrong
By Rachel Richardson Smith …
or does your silence indicate it went right over your head? Or you just don’t give a damned and refuse to read a word of it in any event? Which is it I wonder?

Man does a libertarian even exist that can sustain a constructive dialogue?

<i>Oh and if you say it’s poorly argued, why not explain it in some detail. Then take a stab at Rachel Richardson Smith’s excellent assessment of the personal (not national!) crisis that is.</i>

<i>Oh, perhaps before we go further – mind if I ask you whether you believe God has a personal interest in you and that you ‘Know’ God’s Will?</i>


It’s a dumb, boring take by a confused woman. She’s anti-abortion but pro-choice………must be hard. Most people don’t have that problem.

 

BTW one can’t help but notice CitizensChallenge shitting up the thread with climate trash – as usual. At least he is consistent.

Has there ever been a thread on cfi forums where he has not done that?

 

1 and 2 yr olds are great! It is so easy to be the best comedian in the world with a toddler. I used to work with them and their parents. It was the favorite part of my career.


Well they aren’t that great when you have to look after them every waking moment.