A World ideological offensive of the ultra right

This issue is so old now that I have forgotten most of the details. What I remember is the common factors and some of the timelines. Basically, your viewpoint is correct. But if you add the common factors and look at the time period the contracts were signed and the end results today. My take on it is also correct. The contract, if written in today’s contract font, would only be one page.

Points of view. Clinton - At today’s lunch I discussed three ways in which my nation is prepared to advance Europe’s democratic integration by supporting your region’s continued renewal and security. First, we discussed the Partnership For Peace, the American proposal NATO has just adopted. The Partnership invites all former Warsaw Pact and former Soviet states, plus other non-NATO members in Europe, to join in military cooperation with NATO in training exercise and operations jointly.

Did Russia join? Yes. In 1994 “It was no longer not just about security. It was also political. That’s why the alliance has survived for so many years,” he says. In 1994, Russia officially signed up to the NATO Partnership for Peace, a program aimed at building trust between NATO and other European and former Soviet countries.

I think this is why it is so hard today to come up with written facts you are looking for. Which is quite reasonable.


The Washington Post

The Ukraine agreement is complex, and some of it is to remain secret or deliberately vague under the terms of the negotiations that produced it. As part of the agreement, Clinton will travel to Kiev on Wednesday to appear at the airport there with Ukrainian President Leonid Kravchuk to hail the pact and show support for the Ukrainian leader. This appearance, called “an official stamp of U.S. involvement and approval” will be followed Friday with the three-way signing in Moscow.

In exchange for giving up its nuclear arms, Ukraine is to get significant benefits. The struggling republic’s massive debt to Russia for energy imports will be forgiven and it will receive nuclear fuel, economic and technical aid from the United States, and security guarantees that Ukraine was said to regard as critical. Ukraine’s acute fear of Russia has made it hesitant to give up its nuclear arms, and that fear was exacerbated last month by the electoral victory in Russia of ultranationalists who have vowed to reabsorb Ukraine and other territories.

To implement the agreement, the United States will form a quasi-public corporation to buy an estimated $12 billion worth of uranium from warheads to be dismantled by the four nuclear-armed ex-Soviet republics. It would resell the uranium to civilian nuclear power plants to recoup its costs.

What we must debate is if Ukraine does have the ability to join NATO today. I think we would both agree it would. It is the problem of the US to provide Ukraine with reactor rods. The US is using Russian uranium here in America for 30% of our nuclear power. 50% of Ukraine’s electricity comes from the reactors. Common factors. Does the US do business this way? Biden said he would destroy the Nord Stream gas lines. Then nothing happened for over a year. Two days after the hook up to Poland of Norway gas that was originally built to use Nord Stream gas was finished. The Nord Stream lines were blown up. So, yes. Biden does.

That said. Why doesn’t Biden let Ukraine join NATO? Fact is it was Biden who shot down Ukraine from joining. The NPT contract is what I think was his roadblock. Only congress can break it. Not the President.

One should ask why and who sold American mined uranium to Uranium One. Wholly owned subsidiary of Moscow-based Uranium One Group, part of the Russian state-owned nuclear corp. Rosatom. Today’s problems. Built upon yesterday’s actions. The US legal system makes dealing with the costs of uranium labor in the US almost prohibited. The Ukraine nuclear weapons cleanup was done in Switzerland.

Then don’t make emphatic statements about how we are held to the letter of the law. Be most honest about your memory, like in this post

Not hiding behind my memory. Got to have a memory to hide behind. There is always doubt. I was hoping Tucker would ask Putin about Ukraine and NATO. He didn’t have to. Putin brought it up himself. Putin put it back in the Budapest Memorandum the understanding that NATO would never allow Ukraine to join. It was Russia that was wanting to join NATO at that time. President Clinton seemed to agree but wanted to clear that with his team. Putin said Clinton told Russia after diner that the CIA would not allow Russia to join. I’m just guessing, but that would have given Russia the reason to suspect an expansion into Ukraine. And the only way the Budapest Memorandum would have been agreed upon is with no Ukraine in NATO. So, if it is not in your opinion the NPT part of the agreement. What do think Putin was talking about?

The letter of the law does not have to change. Parts of the law changes without changing the letter of the Law with political winds and the moral levels of the nation.

Not a treaty.

Yes. That’s what I’m saying. Don’t confuse your opinion with official policy.

First, the US (Biden) is one of Ukraine’s sponsors to NATO. Why do you think we send billions of dollars to help defend Ukraine from Russia’s aggression?

For obvious reasons, all NATO members must approve the joining of a country.

From Wiki,

Relations between Ukraine and the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) started in 1991.[1] Ukraine applied to integrate with a NATO Membership Action Plan (MAP) in 2008.[2][3]

Plans for NATO membership were shelved by Ukraine following the 2010 presidential election in which Viktor Yanukovych, who preferred to keep the country closer to Russia, was elected President.[4] Yanukovych fled Ukraine in February 2014 during the Revolution of Dignity.[5]

The interim Yatsenyuk Government initially said that it had no plans to join NATO.[6] However, following the Russian annexation of Crimea and Russian military support for armed separatists in eastern Ukraine, the Second Yatsenyuk Government made joining NATO a priority.[7]

In February 2019, the Ukrainian parliament voted to amend the Constitution of Ukraine to state Ukraine’s goal of NATO and European Union membership.[8][9]
Ukraine–NATO relations - Wikipedia

With support from ALL NATO members.

At the June 2021 Brussels summit, NATO leaders reiterated the decision taken at the 2008 Bucharest summit that Ukraine would eventually become a NATO member with the MAP as an integral part of the process, and Ukraine’s right to determine its future and foreign policy without outside interference.[10]

NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg also stressed that Russia will not be able to veto Ukraine’s accession to NATO “as we will not return to the era of spheres of interest, when large countries decide what smaller ones should do.”[11] Before further actions on NATO membership were taken, Russia launched a full-scale invasion of Ukraine on 24 February 2022.

Polls conducted between 2005 and 2013 found low support among Ukrainians for NATO membership.[12][13][14][15][16][17] However, since the beginning of the Russo-Ukrainian War in 2014, Ukrainian public support for NATO membership has risen greatly. Since June 2014, polls showed that about 50% of those asked supported Ukrainian NATO membership.[18][19][20][21]

A 2017 poll found that some 69% of Ukrainians wanted to join NATO, compared to 28% in 2012 when Yanukovych was in power.[22] On 30 September 2022, Ukraine formally applied to join NATO, following Russia’s annexation of Southern and Eastern Ukraine.[23][24]
more… Ukraine–NATO relations - Wikipedia

p.s. Note that Hungary initially opposed Sweden from joining NATO, but that had nothing to do with Russia.

Please explain to everyone the difference between a MOU and a treaty. Then explain how the MOU just enforced the NPT treaty. You’re trying to make this about me. I’m trying to bring up points. I don’t think the younger people really understand what went on and I’m trying to keep it simple and not muddy the water.

So, where do you stand? President Clinton’s goal was to denuclearize the world as much as possible and to stop the spread of nuclear weapons. Is that not, correct? If Russia had not agreed to the MOU, then the NPT would not have worked. Russia would not have released the control of the nuclear weapons in Ukraine and the Russian military would have stayed in the Ukraine with the weapons. What President Clinton had working for him was the Russians wanted to stop the spread of weapons and threat of war. The break-up of the USSR had opened a small window for this to take place. No time to re-due the NPT, so a MOU of Intent was not used or needed. Because all that was needed was to clarify the NPT to show Russia, America did not want Ukraine as part of NATO. What was used was a Memorandum of Agreement so that both parties understood that Ukraine would not be part of the NATO.

The result was Russia and Ukraine became good trading partners and got along for several years and the weapon treaties reduced the nuclear expansion of weapons. The problems we are talking about today started when the Donbas territories wanted out. That is quite clear.

By 2010 President **Obama recognized Ukraine’s unique contribution to nuclear disarmament and reconfirmed that the security assurances recorded in the Budapest Memorandum with Ukraine of December 5, 1994, remain in effect. Trump seemed to honor the Budapest Memorandum too. His hands were tied. The swamp didn’t even want Trump to make a phone call to Ukraine. Biden didn’t honor the agreement like Clinton, Bush, Obama, and Trump.

Biden said Ukraine is not ready to join NATO. Biden is a lot of things. Honesty is not one of them. We send billions of dollars to Ukraine to keep the piggy bank for the swamp full.
I don’t think you are serious about this subject otherwise you would understand what a proxy war is.
Where do you come up with the idea that Russia wants to take over Ukraine? What proof do you have on that?

a) Putin’s attempt to restore the Soviet union to its former glory!
b) Russian soldiers occupy Ukranian soil.

This very moment.

The MOU doesn’t say what you say it does either. You are trying to “explain” what it is in your head, based what someone else told you.

And the Steele dossier, also known as the Trump–Russia dossier is Russian collusion. No doubt told to you by the same people. Let me try a different angle.

Is Russia open to tourists?
Despite international sanctions, Russian consulates are issuing visas for travel to Russia for tourism, visiting relatives, etc., as usual. In addition, since August 1, 2023, it is already possible to apply for an electronic visa.
It is getting harder to get from Ukraine to the Autonomous Republic of Crimea. Better to fly into Moscow where you can rent a Harley and ride the 1084 miles to Crimea. It will take about 21 hours. Of course, not counting beer stops.
There are 9 ways to get from Moscow to the Autonomous Republic of Crimea by bus, train, plane, or car.
Costs of air travel - $30 to $866. The train is cheaper, and buses are cheaper yet.
Luxembourg to Moscow $649. Rooms in Crimea are $13 to 5-star at beach for $127.

Now let’s say you took the trip from the US to Europe. The US does not have any non-stops to Russia right now. You go to Moscow and then fly down to Crimea. Now you go to a bar or church, you choose. And you tell the people that Russia is trying to restore the Soviet Union to its former glory. Most likely the men will show up in the van and put you in straight jacket for talking crazy.
Now, if Putin wanted to take Ukraine, tell me why he hasn’t. That has never been in the cards except in nations that restrict free speech where people only get one side of the story.
“I want to be very clear: Our borders are not open,” Mayorkas said during a White House news briefing. Do you agree with that statement too?

You are aware that Russia is making Ukraine a lot of money by transporting gas through Ukraine? Ukraine is saying that it will stop buying Russian gas in 2025. That is because the US taxpayers are building more nuclear reactors in Ukraine. 10 to 1 they will not be finished in time. If Russia wanted to take over Ukraine, it would stop the flow of gas today.
No, I debate you on item “a)”.

Russian soldiers have occupied Ukraine since 1772.

Ukraine occupied Crimea for example from 1992. But in 1993, the Verkhovna Rada of the Republic adopted two laws: “On the Election of the President of Crimea” and “On the President of Crimea”. In 1994, they also passed a law “On the restoration of the constitutional foundations of the statehood of the Republic of Crimea”.

1994 — pro-Russian ‘Republic’ of Crimea

In February 1991, the Crimean region was granted the status of an Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic within Soviet Ukraine, with its capital in Simferopol (Aqmescit). Political parties and organisations emerged on the peninsula. Among them was the Republican Party of Crimea, a pro-Russian organisation that advocated the separation of Crimea from Ukraine and its accession to Russia.

In the referendum on Ukraine’s independence in 1991, 54% of residents of the then-ASSR Crimea voted for independence, 57% in Sevastopol. During the Soviet era, Sevastopol was a closed city with a special status of subordination due to the location of the Black Sea Fleet military base.

After the restoration of independence, Crimea became part of Ukraine and, in 1992, was granted the status of an autonomous republic (. However, there were no clear rights of self-government. Th having the freedom to govern itself or control its own affairs). Therefore, the Verkhovna Rada of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea passed laws without the Ukrainian parliament’s or the President’s approval.

In 1993, the Verkhovna Rada of the Republic adopted two laws: “On the Election of the President of Crimea” and “On the President of Crimea”. In 1994, they also passed a law “On the restoration of the constitutional foundations of the statehood of the Republic of Crimea”.

In January 1994, elections for the president of the ‘republic’ were held in Crimea. The pro-Russian politician Yurii Mieshkov, Crimean Republican Party, won 73% of the vote. During his campaign, he promised to convert Crimea to the ruble zone and Moscow time and grant Crimean residents’ Russian citizenship. Mieshkov called on the State Duma to “incorporate Crimea into Russia”.

So, you have small nation that Ukraine wanted to take over and most the people living there didn’t agree. They spoke Russian and were Russian. Ukraine passed laws that the people had to speak Ukrainian. Ukrainian hadn’t been spoken much in 400 years. The Ukrainians wanted to bring back their heritage. The Russians living there, not so much.

Basically in 1991 the USSR dissolved and the small countries that were controlled by the USSR were being pushed around. And still are to this day. Can you name the other four besides Crimea?
When the fighting started, they were 77% Russian. And the ones dying. Putin stepped in to save the Russians who were being run over by new Ukraine government. After 3 years with Ukraine the people want out of Ukraine and to join the Government of Russian Federation known as the Russian Republic. Putin goal was to help the Russian people. Never to take over Ukraine.

You never answer my questions. You keep trying to make it about me. Don’t you think it would be better if you stopped cherry picking and answer why four presidents don’t seem to have the problems you are having and only biden agrees with you and he doesn’t even know what country he’s in.

Key Donbass city of Avdeevka liberated – Moscow

He cannot. Its just a series of put downs that pollutes his mind

You not only didn’t answer my question, you said you couldn’t. Then you tried to change your claims saying it’s true if you rearrange the meaning of history. You know an MOU and Treaty are different. It’s not a question, it’s a distraction.

East and south. Western ukraine will be retaken by poland

[quote=“mikeyohe, post:90, topic:10688”]
Now, if Putin wanted to take Ukraine, tell me why he hasn’t.

He can’t. Russia has already suffered 350,000 casualties.

The NATO countries are supporting Ukraine only with weapons. If Ukraine had been a member of NATO and in Ukraine, Russia would have lost this war in a week.

Why do you think Putin has already threatened the introduction of nuclear weapons and why the NATO countries are supporting Ukraine?

If thats true which it is not, then ukraine casualties must be in excess of a million. Do your sums - who has the greater population ie manpower?

How Many People Have Died in Russia-Ukraine War?

Published Jan 31, 2024 at 8:21 AM ESTUpdated Jan 31, 2024 at 9:44 AM EST

Earlier this week, the BBC’s Russian service, along with independent outlet Mediazona, reported that civilian recruits who have joined the Russian military since February 2022 accounted for almost half of Russia’s current combat losses. They are often sent into battle with outdated equipment, the outlets reported

The General Staff of the Ukrainian Armed Forces has published totals of Russian losses since the invasion began on February 24, 2022. Its most recent estimate, published on January 31, said 379,610 Russian personnel had been “lost.”

While historically Ukrainian estimates have exceeded those provided by other governments and think tanks, U.S. figures shared with the press in December 2023 are not far from that number.

Based on what ? A dart board ???:rofl::joy::sweat_smile:

And on what is your information based?