If you quickly answer “no” could you please tell me why this is not possible?
God, as an conscious intelligent and motivated agency is unnecessary for creative processes. In fact it actually complicates matters, because with the assumption of a supernatural motivated agency we begin by assuming an 'irreducible complexity" creating elementary particles from which complex patterns evolve.
And that is just not logical. It is naive.
On a list of possible causalities, the existence of a sentient creator god is at “absolute zero”.
This statement sounds absolute and infallible and it’s simply not possible for you or any other human being to claim it as certainty.
My question was “Do you think this is possible?” To immediately reply “No” sounds like dogma.
I agree with you that science welcomes mystery PROVIDED that mystery falls within the conceptual paradigms of it’s various methodologies. Outside of these boundaries and especially when it refers to questions of ultimate origins the idea of “mystery” is philosophically distasteful to most scientists.
The rigid posture of those opposed to entertaining any thought of the mere possibility of the existence of an immaterial, spiritual reality is very similar to the reluctance of fundamentalist Christians when the theory of Evolution is explained to them.
As this subject seems irreconcilable I’d like to make one more entry on the topic. In reply to a request for evidence that confirms the existence of God there is no such evidence and never can be. However I believe there is evidence that convincingly infers the existence of a transcendent agent of supreme and eternal power.
Two lines of thought support this view in my opinion; one is the phenomenon of “Evolved Emergent Complexity” which is clearly observed in the universe and the other is the idea of “universal consciousness” which is more speculative.
Evolved emergent complexity is the observed tendency for the universe to develop through time more elaborate structures of increased complexity beginning with matter itself. From a universe of mostly hydrogen atoms, the simplest atom to a universe proliferated with all the heavy elements needed for the eventual emergence of life and culminating in the evolution of sentient beings. We can see this inexorable process throughout the universe. It is an unmistakable constant. Something is giving energy and direction to this drive toward evolved complexity.
Now enters the idea of “universal consciousness.” This concept implies that consciousness is not produced by the human brain but is present in the universe as one of it’s primary and original attributes and it’s not consciousness that is produced by the brain but it’s the brain and more specifically the human mind that enters consciousness, a universal consciousness that existed prior to the brain and prior to the evolutionary process that brought the human brain into existence. More neuroscientists are accepting this idea and it explains or at least compliments the observed phenomenon of evolved emergent complexity. The universe seems to be getting smarter, more subtle, more complicated and more complex. Human beings are exhibit A. Humans can be though of as a microcosmic expression of the universe at large and we demonstrate these latent tendencies in full accordance with the universe we inhabit. The cosmos shows clear evidence of intelligible and purposeful direction. One of the ascribed attributes of God is “omniscience” and if “universal consciousness” is a real it explains why we see this relentless process from simplicity to complexity instantiated throughout the universe.
I like that. The same can be said for our layered brains which were evolved over ions of creatures trying to survive through their day to day, eat, rest, stay healthy, procreate, live, seek, learn to survive. That imperative starts at the beginnings of complexity within biological systems.
What’s wrong with recognizing consciousness is the result of our body’s functioning biology and sensory inputs from the world we happen to find ourselves.
Opposed to what you are say, there are a number neuroscientists pointing out that our consciousness is basically the inside reflection of our biological bodies dealing with life.
That outlook feels consistent with the experience of my own day to days. I’m aware of the evolutionary heritage that lies behind my body, and the impulses that drive it and help it survive. All of it makes sense from this Earth Centrist perspective, down to my strengths and weaknesses.
You offer universal consciousness, others offer the geometry of consciousness, yet others offer us the end of space and time altogether - how any of it relates to our actual human lives I still can’t fathom, though I’m trying.
Evolution and having a general appreciation for the strands that make me, myself and I, along with where they originated, having a glimpse of the huge spectrum of creatures this Earth provided a home for, and that made me possible. Life and drama on the grandest scale. That stuff positively informs my days and makes a real difference in my appreciate and dealing with the storm und drang of my own days.
Other than entertaining a possibility, something I do and scientists do, FYI, how do you figure your idea is one that anyone else should bother with? I heard no evidence above, just whining about no one listening to you. I heard nothing that points to what you say, other than our mere existence. An existence that lacks a complete description, a complete path back to it’s earliest origin. So, yes, some door is left open a crack for you to claim whatever you want.
But, why should I pursue your claim?
How will my life change if I follow evidence instead of speculation? My mind is open to possibilities either way.
The evidence shows that there is 99.99999999999999% probability that evolution has happened and can be considered axiomatic, both theoretical and factual.
OTOH, the existence of a biblical God has no evidence of any kind other that a book written by various “unknown” people. Even if you can claim a 0.0000000000000001 % possibility that such a being exists, who’re you gonna call for advice, Darwin or God?
There is no equal probability. In fact, claiming such thing is a category error.
Evolution is established science. Belief in a Motivated Creator Agency that requires adoration is “wishful thinking”.
Now if only we really let that lesson soak in, as we think about who and what we are.
As for God, I would suggest that the evidence points to God being the product of our minds, the self. And where did that come from you ask?
We people, every one of us who was nurtured through an umbilical cord and born from a woman, carry hundreds of millions, actually billions of years worth of biological tricks and tools and such within ourselves. Our body hears the echos of millions and hundreds of thousands of years worth of hominid, then human generations, we are the sum total of their collective journey. It’s not some abstract notion, our DNA is proof of that much.
Each of us has grand parents of grand parents reaching back to the dim dawn of evolution.
If God be anywhere, why shouldn’t she/he be found within ourselves, and the echos of deep time that resonate within each of our bodies?
I keep wondering, how do people justify constantly looking for God, out there?
How do people justify constantly looking for God, out there?
Wishful thinking ? The assumption of a spritiual existence in the heaven of God.
The end has no end, but is a new beginning apart from physical existence and if you have been a good boy it is for an eternity of bliss.
Actually it is just an extension of the same evolved impetus that drives us to stay alive.
Ants don’t have don’t have religion or try to stay alive individually. They will unquestioningly give their lives for the hive. (Hellstrom Chronicle)
p.s. Anyone who has not see this movie, should watch it and consider it’s implication.
It’s not that I was calling for cognitive dissonance -
it’s the idea of holding two impossible thoughts at the same time.
Dreams of working on human travel to Mars, with an awareness of what’s happening to the resource base (Earth) that those dreams depend on.
You miss the point. It’s about acknowledging somethings simply are out of our ability to observe, measure, and assess.
Humans some how seem incapable of that and feel it’s noble to pretend we can understand, simply because we can imagine colorful possibilities.
I think it has something to do with keeping our eye on the ball.
It’s like claiming one acknowledges physical reality, but then tries to lecture about how the atom is supposedly all empty space, simply because one mathematical description, with limited application, says so?
Why not instead talk about the energy shells surrounding an atom’s nucleus that are more solid than granite?
You should understand that you are on a forum that accepts and expects evidence for any and all claims. If I missed the evidence you provided, please point it out. You have repeated many times that the lack of evidence for all details of how this universe came to be, is somehow counted as evidence for something immaterial, “ultramundane” was the word you used.
The lack of evidence is not evidence. You said there is no such evidence. You believe something “infers” “a transcendent agent”. That’s a belief, nothing more.
You are the one who should apologize for saying, “The rigid posture of those opposed to entertaining any thought of the mere possibility…” Because entertaining possibilities is the business of science. It was the rigid and dogmatic Catholic Church that held back science for a thousand years by not allowing curiosity and exploration. Once their power was reduced, we figured out how the planets move and eventually how to “slip the surly bonds of Earth”.