Except for the fact that if one is taking moderate amounts of vitamins...they aren't screwing themselves..fatally or otherwise.
There's that.
Neither here nor there in the context of what you said. You raised the issue of someone being so foolish as to ignore their doctor's advice based on something they read on the internet.
Coldheart-In short, unless you’re taking vitamins for a few specific conditions, you’re screwing yourself. Possibly fatally.
This is sensationalism. And it isn't correct. It flat out isn't correct as stated.And your medical qualifications are? We've had two medical professionals in this thread say that it isn't a good idea, plus the article I linked into in the OP which provided citations to the various medical studies it referenced. Or are you basing your statements on the fact that you've yet to wind up dead from taking a multi-vitamin? By that logic, the cigarettes I smoke are harmless, since I'm still breathing.
Except for the fact that if one is taking moderate amounts of vitamins...they aren't screwing themselves..fatally or otherwise.
There's that.
Neither here nor there in the context of what you said. You raised the issue of someone being so foolish as to ignore their doctor's advice based on something they read on the internet.
Coldheart-In short, unless you’re taking vitamins for a few specific conditions, you’re screwing yourself. Possibly fatally.
This is sensationalism. And it isn't correct. It flat out isn't correct as stated.And your medical qualifications are? We've had two medical professionals in this thread say that it isn't a good idea, plus the article I linked into in the OP which provided citations to the various medical studies it referenced. Or are you basing your statements on the fact that you've yet to wind up dead from taking a multi-vitamin? By that logic, the cigarettes I smoke are harmless, since I'm still breathing.
Well I can easily cite medical professionals and articles that say they are good. So who do I believe?
Like I said on page one...when the FDA pulls them off the shelves..then I'll believe it.
And honestly, yes I am basing much of my statements on the fact that I haven't wound up dead yet from vitamins.
You should have just toned down the sensationalism a bit. Then we could have all discussed the dangers of mega-dosing vitamins.
Instead you wrote this:
In short, unless you’re taking vitamins for a few specific conditions, you’re screwing yourself. Possibly fatally.
Seeing as how half the population is taking vitamin supplements, if I read the statistics correctly, that's alot of people screwing themselves.
Every day people have to read about the next carcinogenic substance that's in their daily diet. It's all just pulp-sales.
I trust the FDA...they will disseminate this info accordingly.
Except for the fact that if one is taking moderate amounts of vitamins...they aren't screwing themselves..fatally or otherwise.
There's that.
Neither here nor there in the context of what you said. You raised the issue of someone being so foolish as to ignore their doctor's advice based on something they read on the internet.
Coldheart-In short, unless you’re taking vitamins for a few specific conditions, you’re screwing yourself. Possibly fatally.
This is sensationalism. And it isn't correct. It flat out isn't correct as stated.And your medical qualifications are? We've had two medical professionals in this thread say that it isn't a good idea, plus the article I linked into in the OP which provided citations to the various medical studies it referenced. Or are you basing your statements on the fact that you've yet to wind up dead from taking a multi-vitamin? By that logic, the cigarettes I smoke are harmless, since I'm still breathing.
Well I can easily cite medical professionals and articles that say they are good. So who do I believe?so cite 'em.
Like I said on page one...when the FDA pulls them off the shelves..then I'll believe it.
The FDA has tried to restrict the sale of multivitamins to prescription only in the past, but has been blocked by Congress from doing so.
And honestly, yes I am basing much of my statements on the fact that I haven't wound up dead yet from vitamins.
That's a bit of short term thinking.
You should have just toned down the sensationalism a bit. Then we could have all discussed the dangers of mega-dosing vitamins.
Nothing's stopping us from discussing that.
Instead you wrote this:
In short, unless you’re taking vitamins for a few specific conditions, you’re screwing yourself. Possibly fatally.
So? You do realize that most folks never bother to read linked articles? Or that if they do, they barely get beyond the first 600 words?
Seeing as how half the population is taking vitamin supplements, if I read the statistics correctly, that's alot of people screwing themselves.
And until the 1970s, everybody in the US was using leaded gas (despite the fact that the dangers of lead had been known since before it was first added to gasoline), just because lots of folks do it, doesn't mean that its a good idea.
Every day people have to read about the next carcinogenic substance that's in their daily diet. It's all just pulp-sales.
Who do you think is going to make the most money, a doctor who writes a book saying that multivitamins should be taken only in certain cases, or Dr. Oz who seems to think there's nothing wrong with taking lots of them?
I trust the FDA...they will disseminate this info accordingly.
As I said before, the FDA has tried to restrict the sale of multivitamins to prescription only in the past, but has been blocked by Congress from doing so. Additionally, I did link to the FDA's statement about taking multivitamins earlier in the thread.
And we administer dopamine, proprofol and norepinephrine as well. What is your point?
My point is that artificial vitamin supplementation actually works. In regards to delivering essential vitamins into the body.
That's all.
Nobody is disputing that. I know. It is just a tenet of my argument.
You have fooled yourself into thinking you are actually doing your self good. Why you think you need to take something we generally don't even give hospitalized patients is beyond me. All you end up with is expensive pee.
The FDA has essentially been hand cuffed in its ability to regulate vitamins and supplements through the self serving actions of Sen Orrin Htach in 1994. Please see the DSHEA act of 1994. http://www.health.gov/dietsupp/ch1.htm
I’m going to consider stopping vitamins. You have all convinced me that they are probably useless. I don’t believe they are harmful in moderation.
But maybe I don’t need them. I don’t know!! I like that piece of mind. Goddamn…I don’t know…
Goddamn.
I'm going to consider stopping vitamins. You have all convinced me that they are probably useless. I don't believe they are harmful in moderation.
But maybe I don't need them. I don't know!! I like that piece of mind. Goddamn....I don't know...
Goddamn.
Put the money you would have been donating toward expensive pee in a jar, and at the end of the year, treat yourself to something nice. :-)
I'm going to consider stopping vitamins. You have all convinced me that they are probably useless. I don't believe they are harmful in moderation.
But maybe I don't need them. I don't know!! I like that piece of mind. Goddamn....I don't know...
Goddamn.
Put the money you would have been donating toward expensive pee in a jar, and at the end of the year, treat yourself to something nice. :-)
Yeah, yeah. Saying goodbye is going to be harder than I thought.
You know, it's not like it's magnetic jewelry or some useless herbs for any ailment.
When the vitamins are ingested they actually do stuff. I don't mean stuff I can feel. They go towards nutrition and building and metabolism.
I know I probably don't need the extra boost of vitamins. It's all psychological I guess.
I'll see.
A non skeptical friend has been touting Alkaline water. It will probably be the next big thing in food pseudoscience. If you want to discuss something as ridiculous as vitamins, look into this.
Yes, well I excluded vitamins from my diet for 6 days.
By the 4th day I had noticeably less energy than I was used to. Focus and concentration was lower.
So I again started taking the chewable capsules that contain vitamins and minerals that my body needs and metabolizes and puts to use.
And reading that article, I can be somewhat glad that I don’t take any megadoses of any vitamins.
I certainly appreciate your willingness to consider changing a long-held practice. Unfortunately, the hard part about discussing these issues is that such a personal experience will always be more convincing that scientific data, no matter how solid. I could tell you that your experiment doesn’t really prove anything since your own beliefs and expectations likely influence how you feel, your energy level probably changes spontaneously, and so on. But likely such an objection would just irritate you, and it wouldn’t be convincing since you know what you know from your own experience.
And I know that you take a skeptical attitude to the experiences of others. You wouldn’t accept someone’s word if they said that they stopped praying for a week and bad things happened so God must be real, yet they would feel just as convinced by their experience. But you can undoubtedly think of lots of reasons why that’s different and your experiment is more reasonable than theirs. So it’s hard to talk about these things when there is a conflict between experiential knowledge and knowledged gained from research because the more reliable of the two is the less compelling.
Well I’m glad you are taking me at my word about my experiences.
I truly wasn’t expecting to notice any changes after abstaining from the vitamins. I hope you take my word on that as well.
Nonetheless, I feel pretty confident that I was experiencing a slightly less “pep”.
It could have been totally a placebo withdrawal. I’m willing to admit that…
Are you willing to admit that it was possible that I was experiencing a lack of vitamins that I was used to having.
And that my body was used to having these vitamins and digesting them to metabolize other nutrients to burn as energy.(with all of the attendant strings attached to energy…on a cellular level.)
McKenzieVMD-But you can undoubtedly think of lots of reasons why that's different and your experiment is more reasonable than theirs. So it's hard to talk about these things when there is a conflict between experiential knowledge and knowledged gained from research because the more reliable of the two is the less compelling.
Yes, of course I can. The existence of a god is unproven. The concept of a god is proven, and some studies show it has an effect on people's "well being".
The act of praying may alleviate some people's "maladies" shall we say...
However the mechanical function of praying is inert. It isn't real in the complete sense of the concept. There is no one on the other end so to speak.
Therefore praying is inert.
Supplements on the other hand are not inert.
They in fact contain compounds that:
a. a human body needs for survival.(not exclusively..)
b. will be absorbed into the body and used for metabolic purposes.
McKenzieVMD-But you can undoubtedly think of lots of reasons why that's different and your experiment is more reasonable than theirs. So it's hard to talk about these things when there is a conflict between experiential knowledge and knowledged gained from research because the more reliable of the two is the less compelling.
Yes, of course I can. The existence of a god is unproven. The concept of a god is proven, and some studies show it has an effect on people's "well being".
The act of praying may alleviate some people's "maladies" shall we say...
However the mechanical function of praying is inert. It isn't real in the complete sense of the concept. There is no one on the other end so to speak.
Therefore praying is inert.
Supplements on the other hand are not inert.
They in fact contain compounds that:
a. a human body needs for survival.(not exclusively..)
b. will be absorbed into the body and used for metabolic purposes.
Just because the theory behind a particular bit of anecdotal evidence seems more plausible doesn't make the evidence any more compelling. Evidence has to stand on its own merits and anecdotal evidence is still anecdotal evidence. It has the same weaknesses as any other anecdotal evidence whether it is presented in support of vitamins or in support of some supernatural phenomena.
There is a bit of circular reasoning going on here. You are essentially saying "My theory makes sense and therefor it lends credence to the evidence I use to support it"
McGeyver-There is a bit of circular reasoning going on here. You are essentially saying "My theory makes sense and therefor it lends credence to the evidence I use to support it"
No MacGeyver, McKendzie used a red herring or a strawman to compare use of supplements with praying.
Supplements are not praying. Supplements are not a theory.
I don't have any theories! Where did I propose a theory?
If someone used ibuprofen and said pain was lessened would that be a theory too?
If someone had not drank water in 3 days and complained of headaches, would that be a theory too?
If a person was prescribed vitamin supplements by their doctor would that be a theory?
Mind your own goddamn business. I'll do my lifestyle....you do your lifestyle!
You have no arguments other than criticizing lifestyle choices. That's it.
Supplements are not praying!
That's the latest BS attempt to discredit people's lifestyle.
You can't deny that supplements have useful properties. So STFU!
I bet if I came into your practice and told you of theories I had about my health you be glad to charge me money and direct me on a course of actions.
They wouldn't be theories then would they?
VYAMZA why are your unable to talk about this without freaking out. Can’t adults disagree without silly little outbursts like this?
I didn’t use a strawman, I used an analogy. I didn’t say supplements were like prayer. I said that the process of reasoning you are using to argue the supplements are helping you (“I stopped them and felt different”) is exactly the ame as the reasoning process of anyone with any belief that they sustain through personal experience. The reason I selected a religious example is because I know you recognize the unreliable and subjective nature of such reasoning when presented in support of beliefs you don’t share, but you seem to feel “it’s different” when you use the same reasoning.
If someone used ibuprofen and said pain was lessened would that be a theory too?
If someone had not drank water in 3 days and complained of headaches, would that be a theory too?
Of course. Haven't you heard of the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy? The fact that one thing happens first and another second is not proof the first caused the second. It's not even proof if there is a plausible mechanism for how the one might have caused the other. Most headaches go away on their own. And lots of things can cause headaches besides dehydration. So the fact that someone does and Y happens is not proof that X caused Y. It can be a useful piece of evidence, but you have to rule out alternative explanations, which is why scientific research is done.
And once and for all, I don't care what you do at all. I'm not criticizing your lifestyle, and you can swallow any pill you like. I am, however, challenging your claims for vitamins that you are making on a public discussion forum, and once again if you don't want anyone to criticize your claims why are you making them in forum designed for critical, skeptical inquiry?
Mind your own goddamn business. I'll do my lifestyle....you do your lifestyle!
You have no arguments other than criticizing lifestyle choices. That's it.
Supplements are not praying!
That's the latest BS attempt to discredit people's lifestyle.
You can't deny that supplements have useful properties. So STFU!
I bet if I came into your practice and told you of theories I had about my health you be glad to charge me money and direct me on a course of actions.
They wouldn't be theories then would they?
VYAZMA, ours is a forum for discussion and inquiry into matters such as these. If you don't want to brook inquiry or discussion, then it's best to stay out of such threads. Outbursts and epithets like these are against the rules, which are designed to promote dispassionate investigation. Please take note of the rules, since violations can lead to banning. Thanks.
McGeyver-There is a bit of circular reasoning going on here. You are essentially saying "My theory makes sense and therefor it lends credence to the evidence I use to support it"
No MacGeyver, McKendzie used a red herring or a strawman to compare use of supplements with praying.
Supplements are not praying. Supplements are not a theory.
I don't have any theories! Where did I propose a theory?
If someone used ibuprofen and said pain was lessened would that be a theory too?
If someone had not drank water in 3 days and complained of headaches, would that be a theory too?
If a person was prescribed vitamin supplements by their doctor would that be a theory?
Mind your own goddamn business. I'll do my lifestyle....you do your lifestyle!
You have no arguments other than criticizing lifestyle choices. That's it.
Supplements are not praying!
That's the latest BS attempt to discredit people's lifestyle.
You can't deny that supplements have useful properties. So STFU!
I bet if I came into your practice and told you of theories I had about my health you be glad to charge me money and direct me on a course of actions.
They wouldn't be theories then would they?
McKenzie wouldn't charge you anything nor would he direct you on a course of action. He might charge your owner and advise him or her on a course of action for you. Then you could wag your tail.
Lois