Come on, of course we're all going to die sometime, but do you really not care if it's today or 30 years from now? Do you also blow through red lights and walk out into traffic with abandon, taking the position that you're going to die one day anyway? Do you have any children under your care? I fervently hope not for their sake. LoisSo you think vitamins are going to kill me?
Come on, of course we're all going to die sometime, but do you really not care if it's today or 30 years from now? Do you also blow through red lights and walk out into traffic with abandon, taking the position that you're going to die one day anyway? Do you have any children under your care? I fervently hope not for their sake. LoisSo you think vitamins are going to kill me? Scientific testing shows they might. You are free to ignore it and take the chance. Scientific testing shows that arsenic is likely to kill you, too. Do you ingest it anyway to prove that you're a tough guy and will not be influenced by silly old science? Great. You'll be the toughest guy in the graveyard. Many will applaud and cheer you for refusing to be influenced by rational thought. You're in good company.
You know, I think we’ve all read the research on vitamins- both pro and con- enough to make an inform decision for ourselves. Maybe, rather than argue about it, this might be a topic that we can all agree to disagree and move onto something else. I realize it took years to get accurate information about the life threatening hazards about smoking, with some doctors even Rx-ing tobacco smoking to asthma patients, until the consensus said, without a doubt that smoking is hazardous to one’s health, causes heart and lung problems, even cancer. I don’t know if this will be the case with vitamins, but the fact is, I think we are all readers and we all read the various topics on vitamins, the levels considered safe and the levels not safe, RDA requirements, etc etc. Until research overwhelmingly states that supplements are a health hazard, it’s just one of those things that people are going to have to agree to disagree. Right now, there is no overwhelming consensus on the topic, with some research saying certain levels are helpful for certain things and other levels not. Right now, the consensus is that calcium and vitamin D, at certain levels, helps menopausal women. Vitamin E supplements can trigger cancer, esp in smokers, etc etc. There are other studies, both pro and con for supplements and for those of us who read both, I think we are able to make an informed decision for ourselves, esp with the input of our physicians.
After a law was passed in the 1990s, the FDA could no longer regulate the dose of vitamins put into pills. I think they can still regulate fortified foods, but not vitamin pills. After that law was passed, the vitamin makers went crazy with the doses. The FDA can’t have the pills taken off the market unless someone drops dead after taking them. I don’t think killing you over time counts though. The FDA has been hamstrung by a science illiterate Congress.
It is pretty clear what the FDA recommends, the self serving vitamin companies of course recommend much much more, because we ‘know’, that if a little is good, a lot is ‘better’. Funny, working in the ICU, when we had to give patients vitamins via ‘Total Parenteral Nutrition’ aka Hyperaliamentation, we NEVER give megadoses of vitamins, no matter how ill they are, unless they have a metabolic disorder requiring it.
After a law was passed in the 1990s, the FDA could no longer regulate the dose of vitamins put into pills. I think they can still regulate fortified foods, but not vitamin pills. After that law was passed, the vitamin makers went crazy with the doses. The FDA can't have the pills taken off the market unless someone drops dead after taking them. I don't think killing you over time counts though. The FDA has been hamstrung by a science illiterate Congress. It is pretty clear what the FDA recommends, the self serving vitamin companies of course recommend much much more, because we 'know', that if a little is good, a lot is 'better'. Funny, working in the ICU, when we had to give patients vitamins via 'Total Parenteral Nutrition' aka Hyperaliamentation, we NEVER give megadoses of vitamins, no matter how ill they are, unless they have a metabolic disorder requiring it.You said it Asanta. Even if someone dropped dead after taking vitamins the alt crowd would say it was aomething else. Actually I think they should not only keep on taking them, they should double or triple the dose. Eventually they'll become extinct. Lois
After a law was passed in the 1990s, the FDA could no longer regulate the dose of vitamins put into pills. I think they can still regulate fortified foods, but not vitamin pills. After that law was passed, the vitamin makers went crazy with the doses. The FDA can't have the pills taken off the market unless someone drops dead after taking them. I don't think killing you over time counts though. The FDA has been hamstrung by a science illiterate Congress. It is pretty clear what the FDA recommends, the self serving vitamin companies of course recommend much much more, because we 'know', that if a little is good, a lot is 'better'. Funny, working in the ICU, when we had to give patients vitamins via 'Total Parenteral Nutrition' aka Hyperaliamentation, we NEVER give megadoses of vitamins, no matter how ill they are, unless they have a metabolic disorder requiring it.I usually read WebMD or actual medical journals, that are peer reviewed, such as Physician's First Watch (either the free articles or the abstracts) http://firstwatch.jwatch.org/ I've read the recommended limits and avoid going over that. What about in the foods I eat? It's kind of difficult for a vegetarian (almost vegan) homebody to get more than the RDA of vitamin D and calcium. It's difficult to get even close to the RDA.
I’m happy to agree to disagree about vitamin supplementation, which is frankly not a subject I care a great deal about. But I think the notion that making reasonable, evidence-based statements about the relative risks and benefits of vitamin supplements, as MacGyver and I have tried to do here, is somehow an expression of some kind of quasi-religious missionary impulse is just plain stupid. It is amazing that otherwise reasonable people who hold such an array of views wildly unpopular in the general population can still get so worked up about having their own beliefs questioned that they resort to such silly statements.
I'm happy to agree to disagree about vitamin supplementation, which is frankly not a subject I care a great deal about. But I think the notion that making reasonable, evidence-based statements about the relative risks and benefits of vitamin supplements, as MacGyver and I have tried to do here, is somehow an expression of some kind of quasi-religious missionary impulse is just plain stupid. It is amazing that otherwise reasonable people who hold such an array of views wildly unpopular in the general population can still get so worked up about having their own beliefs questioned that they resort to such silly statements.I agree, but in some cases, the need for a supplement is warranted, which even the article stated- re: Calcium and vitamin D. I quoted this, yet the disagreement continued. There are other [reliable] sources on this particular need, esp with menopausal women and also vegans. This isn't something I get from crazy pseudo-science sources either. The problem, as I see it, isn't taking a particular supplement, but rather overdose, misuse, or unwarranted use. As I pointed out, I have at least 2 applicable and viable reasons for taking D and calcium, within the list that even this article gave. Being totally anti-supplement or totally supplement crazed (either extreme) is, IMO, extreme stances on the issue. As a dr of animals, can you honestly say you don't Rx any supplements? (Mriana grabs her senior citizen cat's arthritis medication) Are you sure? If so, explain to me arthritis med (Cosequin, joint health supplement [for cats]) that has Glucosamine Hydrochloride (derived from shellfish and found in the human supplemental aisle, labelled for "joint health") Sodium Chondroitin Sulfate (derived from bovine cartilage), and Manganese (also found in the human supplement aisle). While I do not use these supplements, I do know they exist for humans to consume, one being Glucosamine for "joint health". Ironically enough, four-legged animal dr Rx "natural" supplements for our four-legged family members and call it medication, instead of giving them Celebrex (or similar) for their arthritis AND human medication is often tested on other animals for their viability for humans, BUT here is the problem- what is bad for them isn't necessarily bad for us (Willow Bark AKA aspirin and chocolate, both pure poison to cats) and vice versa. Similarly, while my cats can take Penicillin and relatives thereof, I cannot, even though some humans can and because giving them any such med that may spill on my skin and break me out (burning rash/hives) if they fight about taking it, it is on their record that they cannot take it due to my allergy to it. I am deathly allergic to Penicillin and relatives thereof. The very same chemicals found in things like chocolate and even proven natural medications like Willow Bark that may help us, can potentially kill them and vice versa, but yet at the same time some could help both species OR help some of each species, but not all (AKA 'icillin medications.) At the same time, I'm also willing to bet the processing of these natural supplements for "joint health" are not the same for other animals as they are for the human animal, but yet our non-human family members are living longer lives (hopefully quality lives) with the use of these supplements, not dying for them. Animal testing for human consumption has gone on for centuries and while tomatoes don't kill us, they do other animals, and the whole plant, including the fruit (which is said to contain minute amounts of arsenic), was thought to be poisonousness to humans... I wonder why? Could it be that it killed other animals? Thus, if you use Glucosamine for our four-legged family members, it is no surprise to me that some people think it is OK for human consumption. Some people who can't afford food, have been known to eat dog food (why I don't know with food kitchens and all). It might be used for humans by some human drs for all I know, but the thing is without testing these things on humans, with a voluntary guinea pig, we aren't going to know. Of course, non-conflicting information needs to get out to people, esp if something is truly poison, thus educating people, along with consulting with their doctor. However, saying "but they are animals". That just doesn't work, at least not with me, given what I do know.
I usually read WebMD or actual medical journals, that are peer reviewed, such as Physician's First Watch (either the free articles or the abstracts) http://firstwatch.jwatch.org/ I've read the recommended limits and avoid going over that. What about in the foods I eat? It's kind of difficult for a vegetarian (almost vegan) homebody to get more than the RDA of vitamin D and calcium. It's difficult to get even close to the RDA.Sorry, I forgot to add in the vegetarians. Yes, you certainly should take supplements.
...... that has Glucosamine Hydrochloride (derived from shellfish and found in the human supplemental aisle, labelled for "joint health") ........No, I don't use Glucosamine for my arthritic elderly dog, although my vet recommended it. I told her I found no studies proving efficacy, and it was just a waste of money. When my dog is in pain, he gets a motrin dose. He needs it perhaps once or twice a week. He takes medicatio for seizures, which work quite well, and has gotten benadryl and claratin for allergies, and antibiotics for infections, all proved to work.
....and while tomatoes don't kill us, they do other animals, and the whole plant, including the fruit (which is said to contain minute amounts of arsenic), was thought to be poisonousness to humans... I wonder why? Could it be that it killed other animals?...Yes, the tomato plant belongs to the nightshade family and the rest of the plant contains anticholinergics, which are very poisonous to humans and many animals, but the fruit are (obviously) fine.
...... that has Glucosamine Hydrochloride (derived from shellfish and found in the human supplemental aisle, labelled for "joint health") ........No, I don't use Glucosamine for my arthritic elderly dog, although my vet recommended it. I told her I found no studies proving efficacy, and it was just a waste of money. When my dog is in pain, he gets a motrin dose. He needs it perhaps once or twice a week. He takes medicatio for seizures, which work quite well, and has gotten benadryl and claratin for allergies, and antibiotics for infections, all proved to work.
....and while tomatoes don't kill us, they do other animals, and the whole plant, including the fruit (which is said to contain minute amounts of arsenic), was thought to be poisonousness to humans... I wonder why? Could it be that it killed other animals?...Yes, the tomato plant belongs to the nightshade family and the rest of the plant contains anticholinergics, which are very poisonous to humans and many animals, but the fruit are (obviously) fine. My cat's dr did Rx it and it appears to be helping him, although you are right, it is expensive and IMO, he's being spoiled in the process of taking it. I have to mix it with can cat food. However, for some reason he seems to be eating again. Not sure if it's because he can't handle dry food any more OR he just wants to be spoiled. Whatever the case, he's become more playful, eating food again, and feeling better, instead of hobbling around the house and refusing to eat. He lost 10 lbs which scared me to death after he stopped eating or if he did eat a little dry food, he puked it up again and then hobbled around the house. My problem is, how is his lack or refusal of dry food, his stomach issue when he did finally eat, related to his arthritis. Secondly, why did his stomach issue stop and he started gaining weight when his dr, IMO, told me to spoil him with wet/moist food? (Old age teeth? Old age stomach? Or just a desire to be spoiled?) I do not see his stomach/eating issues related to the arthritis he's developed, but then again, some people years ago didn't see how hitting the knee told a dr anything about their brain/nervous system. So there might be something I don't understand. Basically, what I'm saying is, I do not see how the joint supplement his vet gave him is related to anything more than his arthritis, yet the dr said, we get him feeling better (in relationship to the arthritis) and hopefully he'll start eating again. I guess pain can do a lot of things. Even I puke when my migraines get really bad, but I think that's different than arthritis pain. I see no relationship between his arthritis, the supplement, and his stomach issues, but all seemed to have disappeared. I one hand I agree with you asanta, but on the other hand, my observations disagree with my opinion and what I thought I knew. If I take him off to save money, which I'd love to do, I'm concerned he'll be back where he started before I accepted his dr's advice, cleaning up puke (not hairballs, but actual puke), seeing him rarely eat, and hobbling around the house. What's a caregiver suppose to do? That said, I was told aspirin and motrin are poisonousness to cats, so I can't do that, esp since I have no clue as to what I'm doing in order to give it to him.
I usually read WebMD or actual medical journals, that are peer reviewed, such as Physician's First Watch (either the free articles or the abstracts) http://firstwatch.jwatch.org/ I've read the recommended limits and avoid going over that. What about in the foods I eat? It's kind of difficult for a vegetarian (almost vegan) homebody to get more than the RDA of vitamin D and calcium. It's difficult to get even close to the RDA.Sorry, I forgot to add in the vegetarians. Yes, you certainly should take supplements. Of which I think calcium and D are most important, esp since I don't get out in the sun often, esp in winter. Vitamin C, not so much because I do eat fruit as a vegetarian.
You said it Asanta. Even if someone dropped dead after taking vitamins the alt crowd would say it was aomething else. Actually I think they should not only keep on taking them, they should double or triple the dose. Eventually they'll become extinct. LoisI don't think this strategy would work. Taking ultra megadoses of vitamins is probably not toxic enough to kill off people before they can reproduce. Also chidren could be born who have an adaptive tolerance (and thus survival advantage) in the ingestion of too much "artificial" vitamins. So I doubt that they will become extinct.
You said it Asanta. Even if someone dropped dead after taking vitamins the alt crowd would say it was aomething else. Actually I think they should not only keep on taking them, they should double or triple the dose. Eventually they'll become extinct. LoisI don't think this strategy would work. Taking ultra megadoses of vitamins is probably not toxic enough to kill off people before they can reproduce. Also chidren could be born who have an adaptive tolerance (and thus survival advantage) in the ingestion of too much "artificial" vitamins. So I doubt that they will become extinct. The supplements added to food are also artificial too, in that they do not come naturally in that food- such as calcium in orange juice, iron fortified bread, and Vitamin D in milk. IMHO, it is the same thing that some are saying about vitamin pills. However, we've already been down that road. It's still the same thing though and not worth going down a rabbit path again that says it is not.
Mriana,
I have no idea where you got the idea that I was “totally anti-supplement.” I believe I specifically said several times that supplements are inappropriate if not used for a specific proven indication. There absolutely are some clear cases in which supplements are appropriate and effective. The problem is simply the widespread assumption that they are beneficial and safe regardless of any data on the subject.
Unfortunately, your example concenring glucosamine is not a good one since the evidence is very solid that glucosamine and chonroiting are completely useless for treatment or prevention of arthritis. Just last week I wrote about an <a href="http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2013/06/american-academy-of-orthropaedic-surgeons-evidence-based-review-of-arthritis-treatments/[evidence-based review by the Americal Academy of Orthopedic Surgeons“> which re-enforced this conclusion, and I have been covering the subject and the evidence on this one for years (see <a href="http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2013/06/american-academy-of-orthropaedic-surgeons-evidence-based-review-of-arthritis-treatments/[evidence-based review by the Americal Academy of Orthopedic Surgeons”>HERE] for a summary). This is exactly the kind of widespread misconception that leads to significant waste of money and effort and, in some cases, failure to make use of better validated treatments. Glucosamine supplements are probably harmless, and they are certainly popular, but they almost certainly don’t work. You are free to do whatever you like, and unfortunately there aren’t a lot of good options for older cats with arthritis, but sadly glucosamine is a waste of money.
So I certainly can’t say I never recommend supplements, but that is a straw man that bears no resemblence to what I’ve been saying in this thread. I’m simply talking about the value of relying on good scientific evidence rather than just assuming these things are safe and effective. The reality with supplements is that most of the time we don’t know if they work or not because they haven’t been adequately studies. Sometimes they have been shown to have value, and sometimes they have been shown to be unsafe (HERE] is a list of papers and discussions of the risks of various supplements). It’s not a simple matter to decide what one should or shouldn’t take, but if we ignore the evidence when we have it we certainly aren’t going to make the best choices.
Asanta,
Just wanted to point out that I wouldn’t recommend ibuprofen for your dog. It has a VERY narrow safety margin in dogs (much more so than in humans) because they don’t detoxify it effectively, and both GI ulcers and renal failure can easily occur with use of this one. Acetominophen is also not very safe. Aspirin (about 10mg/kg) is best tolerated of the over-the-counter drugs, though some dogs do show sensitivity to it and have vomiting. If your dog really has significant discomfort or disability due to arthritis, a prescription NSAID labeled for dogs with regular bloodwork monitoring is best. And, as you say, there is no reason to think glucosamine is worthwhile.
You said it Asanta. Even if someone dropped dead after taking vitamins the alt crowd would say it was aomething else. Actually I think they should not only keep on taking them, they should double or triple the dose. Eventually they'll become extinct. LoisI don't think this strategy would work. Taking ultra megadoses of vitamins is probably not toxic enough to kill off people before they can reproduce. Also chidren could be born who have an adaptive tolerance (and thus survival advantage) in the ingestion of too much "artificial" vitamins. So I doubt that they will become extinct. Oh, well, I tried! ;)
Mriana, I have no idea where you got the idea that I was "totally anti-supplement." I believe I specifically said several times that supplements are inappropriate if not used for a specific proven indication. There absolutely are some clear cases in which supplements are appropriate and effective. The problem is simply the widespread assumption that they are beneficial and safe regardless of any data on the subject.Yes. Now that I can agree with.
Unfortunately, your example concenring glucosamine is not a good one since the evidence is very solid that glucosamine and chonroiting are completely useless for treatment or prevention of arthritis. Just last week I wrote about an <a href="http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2013/06/american-academy-of-orthropaedic-surgeons-evidence-based-review-of-arthritis-treatments/[evidence-based review by the Americal Academy of Orthopedic Surgeons"> which re-enforced this conclusion, and I have been covering the subject and the evidence on this one for years (see <a href="http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2013/06/american-academy-of-orthropaedic-surgeons-evidence-based-review-of-arthritis-treatments/[evidence-based review by the Americal Academy of Orthopedic Surgeons">HERE] for a summary). This is exactly the kind of widespread misconception that leads to significant waste of money and effort and, in some cases, failure to make use of better validated treatments. Glucosamine supplements are probably harmless, and they are certainly popular, but they almost certainly don't work. You are free to do whatever you like, and unfortunately there aren't a lot of good options for older cats with arthritis, but sadly glucosamine is a waste of money.I was skeptical too, until I saw my 14 y.o. cat hobbling around less, is playing again, and eating more. Not sure what is happening, but he seems to be doing better and putting his weight back on again. Another man I met said it helped his cat or dog (I forget which it was). I don't know why he stopped hobbling and eating more after the med was started, but he has. If it wasn't the glucosamine what was it? I seriously doubt it was changing his diet from dry to moist foods. The only relationship that has would be for his mouth and stomach, which ironically has improved (not his mouth, but his stomach). Whatever the case, the dr is going to do some blood work on the old man as fast as I can pay for it. Almost $200 for blood work. Seems outrageous to me, but I know that will tell us a lot more than the appearance of the glucosamine helping him. Then again, Amber took it for arthritis, before she ended up with organ failure at the age of 12. :( However, she didn't show any improvement before she took sick. She just went from hobbling around to laying in her waste without caring, and then eventually looked like an anorexic on death door before they confirmed what I already know and had to let her go. She was the first cat I ever gave or rather permitted via the vet's recommendation, euthanasia at the end. So, I don't think this is the same thing and sometimes I think he's going to make it at least until he's 20. He's just that stubborn, which is good, I think.
People taking vitamin supplements can have a dramatically increased risk of death.]Unless you are taking vitamins because of a genuine medical need as prescribed my an MD all you re doing is making your urine expensive for no good reason.In October 2011, researchers from the University of Minnesota found that women who took supplemental multivitamins died at rates higher than those who didn't. Two days later, researchers from the Cleveland Clinic found that men who took vitamin E had an increased risk of prostate cancer. These findings weren't new. Seven previous studies had already shown that, for certain groups, some vitamins increased the risk of cancer and heart disease, and shortened lives.Much more at the link. In short, unless you're taking vitamins for a few specific conditions, you're screwing yourself. Possibly fatally.
Asanta, Just wanted to point out that I wouldn't recommend ibuprofen for your dog. It has a VERY narrow safety margin in dogs (much more so than in humans) because they don't detoxify it effectively, and both GI ulcers and renal failure can easily occur with use of this one. Acetominophen is also not very safe. Aspirin (about 10mg/kg) is best tolerated of the over-the-counter drugs, though some dogs do show sensitivity to it and have vomiting. If your dog really has significant discomfort or disability due to arthritis, a prescription NSAID labeled for dogs with regular bloodwork monitoring is best. And, as you say, there is no reason to think glucosamine is worthwhile.Thanks, the motrin was recommended by the vet. I'll ask for something else. I spend a fortune already on his anti-seizure meds, may as well add another to the mix prn, of course. He's been a stable 29.5 kg for the 5 years I've had him (he's a Lab). I'll pick up some aspirin and probably decrease the dose a bit. I get another med when I visit the vet again to refill his other med. Thanks again.