Huang Po told his students to “stop conceptualizing”, hundreds of years ago. He knew by study and practice that all concepts were illusions. People believe that their concepts form reality, but they only approximate it in ways that enhance our survival chances. Now, science is catching up in many ways. It is inevitable that breakthroughs in science will dovetail into the capitalist system, but the trend now is to debunk the belief in a deity, and the fables that go with it. We are also expanding the linear fashion that Darwin used, to encompass a plethora of holistic influences on how evolution “works”. I can see in the near future that there could be conflict arise from the devotedly religious because their long held superstitions are being exposed as phony, which will cause the shirking population of true believers. Feeling cornered they will FIGHT or FLY away, preferably the second. The sciences are growing up too. As the linear approach gives way to a more comprehensive approach it will expand our ability to understand our true nature. But, this is an inquiry that is endless. The idea that there are parallel universes is gaining traction, and UFO’s and Bigfoot are slipping through to our universe. To follow all the breakthroughs would be impossible, especially to understand them when we are outsiders to the specific scientific experiments and theories. Taking a “bite out of God” is becoming popular. 
@foghorn... now that you did some research. ?Yeah foghorn, I know how to do some research. Though I could do without the insult, especially considering you're the one that brought the snake oil salesman into this. All of us who pay attention to science are aware of increasing evidence for belly brain communication. It's newish, but not that new. Although new finding are increasing our resolution of the situation, and much remains to be learned.
Don’t know what I should do with the rambling in #344354.
Huang Po told his students to “stop conceptualizing”Okay stop pipe dreaming. But to suggest that we "stop conceptualizing" is like, stop breathing. You can't get through your day to day without a constant flood of conceptualizing the world and making your way through it. Of course, if one dreams of sitting on a mountain top endlessly meditating, have at it. See how that works out as your day unfolds.
We are physical beings, our body and mind must meet certain requirements to exist on in this physical world, or we get sick, if we don’t change something we die.
I can see in the near future that there could be conflict arise from the devotedly religious because their long held superstitions are being exposed as phony, which will cause the shirking population of true believers.I can see that current gluttonous trends will guarantee the collapse of our biosphere, the thing we people depend on for our life support system. God be damned, cause it won't make a bit of different, except within people's little insular minds.
Taking a bite out of God.That's cute. But then "God" is a creation of our imaginations, and we are the physical product of Evolution, with an amazing brain capable of a great deal, thanks to the experiences of all the generations that came before and to our host, that would be the evolving planet Earth.
PS.
It’s Not A “Body-Mind Problem” - It’s An “Ego-God Problem.”Where did God come from?
From human curiosity and wonder. From puzzling over observations and contemplating questions. From love and hunger and fears in the night. From looking at the suddenly dead carcass of a loved one. From missing those who are gone. From buried memories of being coddled within mom’s loving protective bosom.
From our need for someone truly personal, who’s always there, never dying, ready to listen to your constant talk and wishes in complete confidence.
Think about it, our relationship with our God is the most intimate relationship of our lives and reflects our ego in every way.
All of it, happening within our mind, or more descriptively, within our Mindscape.
Point being, GOD is a product of our mind, same as love, art, politics, science - all of them originate within our mindscape, and not out there in the physical reality that created us. Furthermore, our conception of God is driven by our Ego.
Nothing wrong with that, if only we could bring ourselves to explicitly recognize as much.
For some these realities are jarring and resented, but that doesn’t make it any less the reality we exist within.
The key insight for advancing philosophy past its historic body-mind, dualist impasse?
Appreciating the Human Mindscape ~ Physical Reality divide.
All sorts of fresh insights flow from that simple explicit recognition of our human condition.
Huang Po told his students to “stop conceptualizing”, hundreds of years ago. He knew by study and practice that all concepts were illusions. People believe that their concepts form reality, but they only approximate it in ways that enhance our survival chances. -- foghornI missed this on the first quick read thru. Foghorn has some ideas based in history and science and logic, and some randomly selected phrases that don't fit anywhere.
I saw the world moving away from religion in the 70s, and the academic world predicting the trend would continue. They are now scrambling to catch up and trying to explain the trend of the “nones”. It happened earlier, after the Scopes Monkey Trial, which science lost don’t forget, but it seemed they won the hearts and minds of the world. Religion is like a weed, going underground so it doesn’t get it’s head chopped off, only to reemerge with new roots.
@meera ... ― Epicurus, I always loved this quote.And to answer the question posed by the author, Isaiah 45:7 says he is malevolent. So one can safely conclude, based on scripture that god is not good as everybody falsely claims.
if this aspect of it does not make for a good reflection. Or any other for that matter, the entire god tower simply crumbles to the ground.
What do you think of the idea that God is simply a human construct?
A product of evolutionary processes, based upon our human biology and expanding brain interacting with its landscape.
An element upon the stage of our ever imaginative Human Mindscapes.
I fully agree that gods are creations of man. I will not repeat my preceding post.
https://centerforinquiry.org/forums/topic/who-is-god/page/2/#post-344236
And to answer the question posed by the author, Isaiah 45:7 says he is malevolent. So one can safely conclude, based on scripture that god is not good as everybody falsely claims.
His name is also Jealousy, for the human created being, is a jealous god.
Ou, now we’re talking.
His name is jealousy, retribution and avarice,
which he received from the people who created him.
Ou, now we’re talking.His name is jealousy, retribution and avarice,
which he received from the people who created him.
Actually, it’s in the Old Testament, the Torah. It is said during the First Commandment and at least one other place.
Yeah that’s one thing I do like about the old testament Jews, they didn’t mind having a hearty healthy argument with their God.
Though it makes for good evidence of their God being a reflection of something going on inside of them, and has more to do with their struggles within an unforgiving natural world, than any metaphysical heaven/hell after-life baloney.
Maybe, but then there is Job. God made a deal with Satan. God said no matter what he did to Job, Job would not turn away from him, but Satan said Job would- most any human would. God did all sorts of evil things to Job- killed his family, killed his livestock, took his health, etc. Satan kept telling God to do this and that to Job and God did it. In the end, Job didn’t turn away and God replaced his family (which can’t be done in real life- human life is not replaceable), restored his health, his livestock etc. Job lived happily ever after to a ripe old age. Really horrible story. Not sure who would want to worship that.
interesting that you bring up Job. Mary Catherine Bateson, daughter of Margaret Mead was on Krista Tippet’s On Being. She has a fascinating spirituality. Her take on Job was unique. I’ll look it up, maybe in the morning, but as I remember, the end of that story, where God is showing Job all of creation and asking “who are you to question this”, was a sort of review of the Cosmos and one person’s small place in it, not so much a show of power, but pointing to how our problems don’t amount to much in the big picture. More along the lines of CC’s views. I could be mixing this up with Jennifer Michael Hecht, and her book “Doubt”, too. Anyway, Job was written at a pivotal time in Judaism, when they were questioning if their God was worth worshipping. But that kind of stuff gets muddled in history.
I’ve listened to Krista Tippet many times. She has some very interesting episodes. Can’t remember if I ever heard the one on Job, but I’ve taken issue with Job many times over. It makes no sense to me for anyone to worship such a deity.
What I find totally illogical about religion is the fact that God must be a motivated entity, which is where all the religious conflicts stem from.
Every religion has their own interpretation of God’s wishes and desires and where they are incompatible the most human cruel behaviors and bloody wars can be the result.
Why cannot everyone agree that a purely stochastic mathematical guiding force is demonstrably the single most logical answer to the question?
No emotion, no intent, no anger, no desire, no reward. Just mathematically based cause and result. No one to blame, no one to claim victory.
Is this too simple in scope? Why do we have Science to describe the mathematical nature of Nature? It’s simplicity? Or perhaps, that is too complicated?
Has anyone ever gone to war over mathematics or are mathematics all the same to everyone and everything in the universe? Think about it!
That’s just the Abrahamic religions. Now if you look at Hinduism- there’s Shiva, god of destruction, Krishna- a reincarnation of Vishnu and the I AM (humm… where have we heard that before or rather after this?), and the list goes on and on, with a monkey god called Hanuman who brought the mountain to… um not Mohamud, but he could have done that too. lol There’s an elephant god with many arms (fertility, for one thing). There’s more. And that’s not talking about all the god of Egypt, that was around before and during the early part of Judaism. There’s no actual god in Taoism and Buddhism, depends on the sect as to a deity, because Buddha wasn’t a god.
K, here’s the whole sermon helper entry, introducing more Lections to come this summer.
And the relevant paragraph:
Mary Catherine Bateson, in an interview with Krista Tippet says this is the universe/god telling Job to get back to his sense of wonder. When the story starts, Job is described as a good member of his religion, doing all the right rituals. After the ordeals, he is given this speech about the wonders of creation. She says wonder can take you into science or into art or into being amazed by other human beings. In its time this passage was a list of unanswered questions. That we have answered many of them should be evidence enough of the power of wonder.Job is one of those books, like Ecclesiastes, that is still there for historical reasons, and now has to be explained in light of the theology that developed after the 4th century AD. Somehow it got in to the canon, and if it was taken out, there would be a lot of questions raised about who has that authority and how reasoning is used to decide what God said or meant.
Why?
Biology.
Biology.Is biology a supernatural phenomenon or is it just another product of evolutionary processes of interactive elements resulting in self-forming biochemical molecular patterns?
Example; “water” is not really an element at all, it is an emergent liquid pattern from a specific arrangement of molecules which in turn are formed from 2 different elemental particles (H2O)
Once one begins to connect all the dots, from matter emerging from dynamical quantum fields and becoming hierarchically “ordered”, it is evident that all of reality is a result of evolutionary processes, which are (or will be) measurable by scientific methods.
There is no magic of any kind which can have an undetected influence on measurable physics. If an a priori unknown foreign influence interferes with known measurable physics, it becomes itself a measurable quantity and part of physics.
AFAIK, no such immeasurable influence is required to account for all known quantities and qualities of any scientific discipline. In fact our science was able to predict the existence of the Higgs boson, a substance which cannot exist independently, but is essential in the evolutionary conversion of energetic quanta into massive elementary particles (Table of Elements).
The universe is the most unimaginably awesome dynamical pattern in all of existence. But it isn’t magical. It is all founded on fundamental logic, translatable as mathematical values and functions. i.e. 1 + 1 = 2 + 1 = 3 + 2 = 5 + 3 = 8 + 5 = 13 (Fibonacci sequence, aka the Golden Ratio), and of course all other known universal constants such as the Fermi’s Golden Rule.
Fermi’s golden rule
In quantum physics, Fermi's golden rule is a formula that describes the transition rate (the probability of a transition per unit time) from one energy eigenstate of a quantum system to a group of energy eigenstates in a continuum, as a result of a weak perturbation.
This transition rate is effectively independent of time (so long as the strength of the perturbation is independent of time) and is proportional to the strength of the coupling between the initial and final states of the system (described by the square of the matrix element of the perturbation) as well as the density of states. It is also applicable when the final state is discrete, i.e. it is not part of a continuum, if there is some decoherence in the process, like relaxation or collision of the atoms, or like noise in the perturbation, in which case the density of states is replaced by the reciprocal of the decoherence bandwidth.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi%27s_golden_rule#
Here are Norman Rockwell’s notes on the way that the Golden Rule is expressed
in different religions…
These are man made rules for exclusive moral guidance of Mankind.
They are meaningless in the larger context of Universal potentials and functions.
For Antonio Damasio, belief is a by-product of the conscious mind. It was a homeostatic process with the advantage of generating security amid a flood of perceptions of a lived past and an uncertain future.
For millions of years, countless beings have possessed active minds, but it is only in those in which a self has developed that it is able to act as a witness to its own mind that its existence has been recognized, and only after those minds have developed language and experienced it for themselves. tell us that the existence of the mind has become widely known. Therefore, poetry, art, philosophy and science are the result of processes that made the existence of the mind widely known. Most likely, cultures and civilizations would not have arisen in the absence of consciousness, which makes consciousness a remarkable - and perhaps most notable - event in biological evolution.