I understand science. I appreciate science. I depend on science within reason. But, the absolute context of which science, philosophy, religion, engineering, art, music, love, hate, war, biology, politics, nature,…etc. are all emergent characteristics, is immeasurable.
There are many traditions of practice that take that into consideration. I thought you knew this.
You said “we know that there is something beyond the horizon”.
Something else to measure?
So that horizon line would NOT be the absolute infinitude of Entirety (the undivided Whole). And you, as a scientist, have not acknowledged it yet? When you do, what will it indicate you should do?
Perhaps consult a Zen master, or maybe join a Jazz combo and go on the road.ॐ
How perceptive, I was on the road as a musician for 7 years.
I touched my spiritual muse beyond the horizon many times.
Girls used to come up to me and ask, “Where do you go when you play?”
And I would answer; “Visit my Muse”.
And they’d say; “I’ll be your muse”…
hehe…
I’m not a scientist, but I try to understand the methods. I did acknowledge it, that I don’t know. The question of the physical universe we observe being infinite or not, is not answered.
Who has been talking about the “physical universe”?
To appease you, I Googled “physical infinities” and never saw so much squirming around to avoid the problem that infinity presents (other than on this forum). Except for the definition of singularity…but oh wait something called Planck length jumps in to save the day!..nothing smaller possible maybe.
Perhaps you can explain it. But, back to the undivided Whole we’ve agreed to call Reality-as-it-actually-is./s
There maybe, if you are talking culture aspects, which you mostly are with that list. Even in the States, you find going into a devout Jewish home is slightly different than going into a devout Xian home. There are sub-cultures even within the main culture of the States. I suspect it’s probably the same in other countries with various religions. The only thing we have in common around the world is science. It was very evident with COVID-19. People were wearing masks around the world… because of science. Meanwhile in the Middle East, women are wearing hijabs, while women in other countries do not. Buddhist monks and nuns dress a bit differently than Catholic nuns and monks. You cannot mix science and religion. You could try, but inaccuracies occur when you do.
I have. It’s what can be observed, tested, experimented with. Anything else is theoretical.
I don’t know what you’re talking about because you just have your phrases, your names for things you don’t describe. What “problems with infinity” are you talking about?
That’s two of your phrases. I don’t know what you mean by either one, but if we call one the other, then, okay. I know what those words mean by themselves, so I can get a sense of it, but that’s all. I’ve had a lot of conversations like this, but I don’t think I’ve felt this big of a gap.
Along with our basic biology, relation to other species, sun rises and sunsets, seasonal changes, attraction to beauty, aversion to pain,…ad-infinitum.
Science is a discipline like a meditation practice, or even something like the Catholic use of confession and the Rosary.
Science as we know it in the twenty first century, is a highly evolved practice rooted in the same impulses that got our ancestors to come down out of the trees start standing upright, master the use of fire, imagine and create the boomerang, and bows and arrows, and baskets, make art in caves, and explore transcendental experiences, awe, and the genius of dreams,…
The Yoga Sutras of Patañjali is science. (hypothesis, experiment, predictable and reproducible results) . Like physics, geology, or social psychology, there will be degrees of expertise, and amateur insight in the mix.
Inaccuracy and abstraction go with the territory of human exploration. Which is more accurately (scientifically?) understood as the Universe exploring itself.
In the context of Reality (as-it-actually-is), our consciousness and the spacetime continuum are not two different things. Existence is experience.
All of it it without exception in equal measure is Realty-as-it-actually-is.
What???
You have to see the category error you are committing in this comparison.
What you are doing here is literally “fact” v “fiction”.
You are positing a couple of books about fictional characters as if they contained some secret power of “revelation” against thousands of books of factual descriptions of “Reality as it is”.
And you declare that science is equivalent to meditation and confession as if Truth will magically present itself to the “initiated”.
Slow down there write4u…the polemics are an artifact of your paradigm.
I’m talking about lives lived not books read.
Please try to take my entire comment as a whole. That practice should resonate with the general theme of the conversation. At least my part in it.
And where does “consciousness” fit into your “ideas” about the “physical universe”?
and,…another question…how does infinitude fit into mathematical descriptions of said “physical universe”?
As I’ve said, “who” and “what” not actually being two things.
It doesn’t because it isn’t. Mathematical functions are “interactive” relationships.
Input data → MathematicaL function → Output data.
This is quasi-intelligent data processing and does not require a sentient god infinitude. It is a logical process!
This has been a long very long thread, and I’m wondering where it’s going. These latest questions seem more like tangents. Consciousness is an emergent property of evolved creatures, infinity has been found to be useful by those evolved creatures. Wouldn’t it be better if we defined some terms like these, instead of just raising them as questions, kind of randomly.
This also seems to be avoiding the thread. I think you know that Mriana acknowledges those aspects we have in common, but she is talking about what we have in common after all that, after we’ve all developed cultures and ways of trying to figure out who we are. Science is the one that cuts across those cultures, I believe that’s the point.
You actually seem to agree with this in second half of that post. As in, “Science as we know it in the twenty first century, is a highly evolved practice rooted in the same impulses that got our ancestors to come down out of the trees…”
I’m not familiar with Patanjali, but I have looked into many of these claims about a spiritual discipline that includes science. It never really pans out.
As in mathematics is the language of relativity. So you do acknowledge the difficulty dealing with non-relative infinitude?
Why the pretense that I’m the one talking abut a “sentient god infinitude”. It is you who has to sweep it [infinitude] under the rug to accommodate that “god relativity”.
Your science is flawed to the degree that you cannot recognize the limits of science (and mathematics) without the artifice of ignoring the obvious.
The undivided Whole equates to Nothing. There is no inside or outside, beginning or end to the absolute context. All such relationships are emergent characteristics. Infinitude accommodating all phenomena and dimensionality, remaining unchanged. No limitations, therefore THIS IS.
Occam and his razor would agree.
The Infinitude equals nothing(ness)?
I agree!
OTOH, the Universe equals something(ness).
Do you agree?
Nothing cannot be observed and described.
Something can be observed and described.
Each belongs to a different category.
One of them can be scientifically accessed. The other cannot be accessed at all, unless by sheer imagination.
Then to consider that “observation” is no more than a “controlled hallucination” and “imagination” is an “uncontrolled hallucination”, it becomes clear that the latter cannot be considered as knowledge, but wishful thinking.
“Categories” like consciousness and the weather, are emergent effects of the undivided infinitude of the non-relative Whole (i.e. Reality-as-it-actually-is).
No, if something is emergent it belongs to the same category of emergent phenomena.
But “Infinitude” or “Nothingness” are not causal to emergent effects of any kind. One is meaningless, the other is nothing!
Perhaps it is not intended, but imho, your proposition sounds like sophistry without meaningful content. I say this without malice.
br, you are making the claim. The burden of proof rests on your shoulders. So far I remain unconvinced of whatever it is you are trying advance.
Where are you getting this “controlled hallucination” trope from anything I’ve said? Are you projecting your assumptions about what Yoga and Zen are about? If so I will remind you of the Butterfly flapping its wings. All phenomena co-arising in interdependent synchronicity. The traditions and teachings that I’ve referenced, besides acknowledging the immeasurable non-relative context of Entirety, have also noted the interdependent co-arising of phenomena. The term Wuji accommodating the paradox of relative and non-relative for the Taoists, literally means “without ridgepole”.
Work with that for a bit please. Our awareness of existing is no more or less seamlessly emergent than the spacetime continuum.
Meditation practices in these schools is literally about unknowing opinions in the service of remembering Reality.
I got this from Anil Seth, a very respected neuroscientist.
You may really like this brief but excellent lecture about “consciousness”.
