What is a Christian? Which are you?

Religion and Secularism
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So many people these days are pounding their chests with Christian Pride and the superiority complex that comes with it.

Then I run into serious Christians who couldn’t careless about politics, or pounding their chests in derision of “atheists,” instead they believe in the words of Jesus and the lessons he tried to share with humanity and live wonderful lives accordingly.

 

The more I think about it, the sadder I find it that we can’t have an identifier:

 

Are you a “Jesus Christian” who is all about the TEACHINGS OF JESUS.

Or are you a “Prosperity Christian” who believes God is there to bestow his blessing on you in repayment for your “worship” - which emphatically has nothing to do with Jesus’s Passion or teaching!

And everything to do with engorging one’s own EGO so much that it eclipses all thoughts of Jesus and his teaching.

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… care less …

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When I was a Christian, I was a “Jesus Christian”.

I seem to recall that “The Love of Money is the Root of All Evil”. So those “Prosperity Christians” must be some evil mother f___ers."

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Seems to me these the sorts of distinctions are what folks should be clambering about lousy - but mum’s the word - wouldn’t want to challenge anyone’s thinking processes.

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I don’t see any Christian “chest pounding” today. If anything, modern Christians are rather meek.

As for what a Christian is – it’s somebody who believes Christ is the son of god. The Christian who prays for money is not any less of a Christian than the bible study geek or the homeless shelter volunteer.

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As for what a Christian is — it’s somebody who believes Christ is the son of god.
That's right. That's the rules of Christianity. If you believe in Jesus being the Son of God, you are a Christian, no matter what you do, or have done, or will do. You just have to believe in Jesus being the Son of God.

So you are correct, Oneguy, they are all Christians.

However, the Jesus Christians are more like Jesus. The prosperity Christians are more like Judas. They really need and want that 30 pieces of silver. And they are like the money changers in the Temple, the only people that inspired Jesus’s personal delivery of corporal punishment.

Both camps are ignorant believers of supernatural nonsense, but one group has Jesus’s sense of humanity.

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I’m no expert in Christianity, but it’s interesting how the message of Christianity can differ among denominations, and even within denominations.

The idea of being like Jesus seems to be a protestant American thing. I think the concept of faith in Christ is seen differently and practiced differently in non-protestants.

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I seem to recall that “The Love of Money is the Root of All Evil”. So those “Prosperity Christians” must be some evil mother f___ers.”
It's not a one way thing. Just don't chase it. It's not evil if money loves you a lot.
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The idea of being like Jesus seems to be a protestant American thing. I think the concept of faith in Christ is seen differently and practiced differently in non-protestants.
Protestants tend to pay attention to the part of the Bible that is in red print. (The words attributed to Jesus.) Jesus, aka Christ as in "'Christ'ian".
It’s not evil if money loves you a lot.
Money does not love. And the act of attaining money is not evil. LOVE of MONEY is the root of all evil.
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Protestants tend to pay attention to the part of the Bible that is in red print. (The words attributed to Jesus.) Jesus, aka Christ as in “‘Christ‘ian”.
Is it really in red print?
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yes. I think that’s in the King James version, maybe others too, idk.

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There is an essential difference between the teachings of Paul who formed the basis of the modern church – what you might call religion, and Jesus’ teachings.

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sree - It’s not evil if money loves you a lot.
Oh wow, at first I found that an idiotic non-sequitur and was going to ask you to explain what in the world you mean.

But then it struck me, this must be the secret to your smug willful ignorance, you must be one of them high on the pig trustafarians -

Got it handed to you on a silver platter and thats proof enough that god is on your side and you are entitle while others can suck on rocks.

It would also explain why t rump seems so normal and okay to you.

 

Perhaps the most personally insightful thing I’ve read from you.

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There is an essential difference between the teachings of Paul who formed the basis of the modern church — what you might call religion, and Jesus’ teachings.
Jesus, you think?

So Paula made it up, but was the better politician and managed to get so much more mileage out of a selection of Jesus’s message, Jesus ever did?

 
Lovevofgod, don't suppose you'd care to offer some of your insights on what the differences between Paul's Church, Jesus's teachings, and religion is?

You do accept other religions, or … ?

When you imply Love of God - what can you share with us about this God you imagine?

Next question would be: What do you think of the Book of Job and the Bible’s warning that “God” is simply beyond human understanding?

 

Be fun to have a real discussion on this topic with someone who cares.

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So Paula made it up, but was the better politician and managed to get so much more mileage out of a selection of Jesus’s message, Jesus ever did?
Well, if you look in the gospels there are many warnings about Paul. It's not that Jesus didn't have power over Paul, it is just that his purpose was to establish the greek bible that helps us understand the law and the prophets.

The bible, the King James bible is a supernatural work of God, that appears to contain answers to everything. Those that seek, meditate on, and ultimately understand and obey what is written in them are prospered in what they do.

The rules are simply the rules that govern the earth, they teach a lot about health and disease, for eating is analogous to consuming information.

Lovevofgod, don’t suppose you’d care to offer some of your insights on what the differences between Paul’s Church, Jesus’s teachings, and religion is?
Well Paul mixes many good arguments about justification, with a total rewriting of the commandments. Put simply he replaces Deuteronomy which contain the promises of life with something analogous to Deuterocanonical law, which is the law of the church.

His letter to the Romans contains lots of persuasive arguments, but the real payload is in Romans 10, in which he mangles quotes from Deuteronomy, to substitute faith in the resurrection in the place of doing God’s commandments.

More generally, if you examine Jesus’ and Paul’s teachings with an open mind Paul and Jesus say very opposite things.

Money is a major one, Jesus teaches to seek the kingdom of God and not worry about where your food or clothing is coming from. And to freely give as we are given. To do this in practice is very hard except one understands that God really does provide for you, and if someone needs something you have, it is very easy for God to give you what you what you need. And he does treat us according to our attitude and actions towards others. The beauty of his commandments are that acting in a selfless and moral way is not only in theory good, but good in practice too.

Ultimately Jesus says we have to choose between God and money. “Ye cannot serve God and mammon”.

Paul on the other hand raises a tax on believers, to “send to Jerusalem” and says that everyone should provide for themselves, and anyone that is doesn’t labour should not eat. Oh and don’t relieve the widows except they are old.

You do accept other religions, or … ?
Not sure what that means. I accept what I can understand and test. All the different sects and religions believe different things, and it is very common for people to believe they have the truth and everyone else has it wrong. If I am in disagreement with someone, then I think Jesus' words teach us seek agreement. I find when the matter is resolved the truth is deeper and more beautiful than any one side of the argument. Jesus also seems to teach that worship should not be done while one has outstanding disputes. Rather being merciful towards others is what is desired: "I will have mercy and not sacrifice."

Generally religion is a way of exercising authority over people. But one I have come to understand this is of God too, we are lost in the system, and it is our karma for being caught up with and going along with the errors of others.

But there are other “spiritual books” but they are just books and I do not hold them to be a supernatural oracle in the way the Authorised King James Version is.

When you imply Love of God – what can you share with us about this God you imagine?
The way I see it, God will let us do whatever we set our minds on, but being the judge and lawgiver, he arbitrates disputes. The most shocking thing that I read was him talking about answering us according to our idols. What that means in practice, if we believe in the power of anything except God, he will answer us according to our beliefs. For a time. This is the chief reason we do not prosper in what we do, we simply have mistaken beliefs about the way things work.
Next question would be: What do you think of the Book of Job and the Bible’s warning that “God” is simply beyond human understanding?
Job is a very religious man who seeks God, but really doesn't get it. He sacrifices every day, but all his religion he has not managed to teach his children, who behave wickedly. God sends Satan to take everything from him, which he handles well until his friends make out that he must have done something wrong. He then seeks to defend himself and say he has done nothing wrong, and complain as to what he has done wrong that God should take everything from him. God makes plain that Job does not really understand what reasons God has for this, and Job realises he has just been doing religion according to what he has heard, but now he sees him for himself. After that there is a subtle change, instead of his children eating in a separate house, people come and eat bread with him, which is a figure for sharing and discussing the word of God.

Though God’s ways are higher than our ways, he is pleased to give knowledge to those who seek it from him, and believe he is able to deliver. There is nothing I have asked, that I feel has been withheld from me. Having said that, some things are longer in coming than others, and some prayers are answered only after decades.

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If I am in disagreement with someone, then I think Jesus’ words teach us seek agreement.
Seeking agreement is one thing, coming to agreement is something else. I don't agree that Police Officer Derek Chauvin should be blamed for George Floyd's death without a trial. I cannot seek agreement with people who presume him guilty of hating black people, deliberately murdering Floyd, and want him punished without a fair hearing in accordance with the law.
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More generally, if you examine Jesus’ and Paul’s teachings with an open mind Paul and Jesus say very opposite things.

Money is a major one, Jesus teaches to seek the kingdom of God and not worry about where your food or clothing is coming from. And to freely give as we are given… …The beauty of his commandments are that acting in a selfless and moral way is not only in theory good, but good in practice too.

Ultimately Jesus says we have to choose between God and money. “Ye cannot serve God and mammon”.

Paul on the other hand raises a tax on believers, to “send to Jerusalem” and says that everyone should provide for themselves, and anyone that is doesn’t labour should not eat. Oh and don’t relieve the widows except they are old.


Well said, loveofgod. I am an atheist but that is how it seemed to me when I was a Christian. In fact, I might not be a humanist, today, were it not for my understanding of Jesus’s teachings that I learned as a child.

But as far as your story of how God had his own subtle reasons for re-shaping Job’s behavior, by allowing Satan to wipe out his family and belongings and to torture him with disfiguring illnesses, I was never taught about those alleged motivations of the Deity. It sounds, to me, like a stretch of rationalization and apologetic explanation for God’s conspiring with Satan.

Anyway, it is just stories of the supernatural. The supernatural ONLY exists as a concept. To say otherwise, is a LIE. I think that living one’s life according to LIES is probably not the best strategy, in the long term, for mankind in general.

 

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Seeking agreement is one thing, coming to agreement is something else. I don’t agree that Police Officer Derek Chauvin should be blamed for George Floyd’s death without a trial. I cannot seek agreement with people who presume him guilty of hating black people, deliberately murdering Floyd, and want him punished without a fair hearing in accordance with the law.
Well isn't that something then that needs to be discussed with them?

To seek agreement and to seek to agree with someone else’s position are different things.

I suppose this is the difference between proselytising and teaching; the former is pushing a conclusion, the latter is help bring an understanding.

If you can easily see why they are wrong, you ought to be able to show them why they are wrong. But to come to agreement one needs to also give fair hearing to their reasons. Otherwise, they may not be the only people acting with prejudice. Humility is necessary to grow in one’s own understanding. If they will not hear you take another. Part of God’s teaching is really about how to resolve such matters.

If they do not hear you, at least you have given them chance to understand something they ought to know. And even if they do not immediately repent, at least you may have given them something to think about and the onus and blame is then on them. If you do not warn them and you are the one with the understanding, isn’t the fault with you?

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But as far as your story of how God had his own subtle reasons for re-shaping Job’s behavior, by allowing Satan to wipe out his family and belongings and to torture him with disfiguring illnesses, I was never taught about those alleged motivations of the Deity. It sounds, to me, like a stretch of rationalization and apologetic explanation for God’s conspiring with Satan.
You have heard Jesus' teaching about the rich that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven?

Well Job is the archetypal rich man. He is very religious but his religion is vain. The children he has: the one’s he ought to be teaching are left to themselves while he is busy with his sacrifice offerings. In the same way, the spiritual offspring, the proselytes of religion, are worse than those who proselytize them. And their end is to die. Only after shedding his previous wealth of religious teaching does he enter the kingdom of God.

Man’s riches are vain. God’s riches are wisdom, and these are not so easily lost. Job was using his camels to offer sacrifice, but this did not truly cover his shame. Only by taking all this away did Job learn.

It may be this is difficult for you to understand if you have not been through this yourself. But when one can have nothing yet be provided for, fear is removed and one’s actions are no longer motivated by fear of loss or oppression.

This is why David delighted in God, even though – well because – God had been very hard on him when he was at fault. Psalm 119:75 “I know, O LORD, that thy judgments are right, and that thou in faithfulness hast afflicted me.”

This might be a mind-bending concept, but without it there is ultimately nothing we can trust in this world, and Good and Evil just have to fight it out.

Anyway, it is just stories of the supernatural. The supernatural ONLY exists as a concept. To say otherwise, is a LIE. I think that living one’s life according to LIES is probably not the best strategy, in the long term, for mankind in general.
I assume you are saying that because of the way you are defining supernatural. The way I see it is that any part of God's law ought not simply to be abstract thing outside reality but to be observable in real life. So in this way, the bible is a science book and it teaches us how the laws of "nature", though I hesitate to call it that work.

For example, when the Israelites came out of Egypt, they complained they didn’t have any flesh to eat. They were given a complex set of rules to follow that included hygiene rules so that they did not get sick. Now these rules may have deeper spiritual meanings, but whether one believes they apply or not, not following hygiene rules has practical implications. So in that sense they are the laws of nature.

But there are also laws about loving our neighbours as ourselves and not judging lest we be judged. These are also operative. It may not we widely accepted in the west but to many people karma is an operative and real thing.

Now where I might agree with you is that these laws are either operative or not, and one could test them. (Ignoring more nuanced possibilities for now.) If they turned out to be true, you might say they are part of “nature”, or somehow being fulfilled by our subconscious mind, or a consequence of quantum mechanics, or whatever. But the point is they are testable. If you are closed to even considering the idea, well God may well bless you with ignorance on the matter according your desire. But that does not mean you will not suffer the consequences of the way you treat others (if as I assert karma is real).

But then the real joy of the bible becomes clearer, it teaches one to understand how “nature” and other aspects of existence (although you may say all existence is nature) really work.

If you see these things as active, then it might encourage you to use different terms than natural and supernatural, and handle them differently.

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Welcome to the forum David/loveofgod. It’s nice to have a believer who shows that they have put some effort in to thinking about what they write, however, needs work. There was a time that posts like yours would have given me something to think about, something to look into, but not anymore. It’s the basic pattern of modern liberal preaching:

You’ve heard of…. something commonly known in the Bible

But here is the new way to look at it….

Blah, blah, blah,….

Jesus loves you, read the Bible and pray.

What this pattern misses is that you can pick out any variety of sets of passages and make them say whatever you want. What’s ironic is that’s the whole point of storytelling. At the time of the writing of the gospels, I’m pretty sure they knew they were doing that, the writers and the listeners. It’s not that different from today, where you can listen to one, and if you don’t like it, go down the street and listen to a different one. Or just click around and do that from home.

Missing even more from your posts is recognition of all the other books in the world, all of the philosophy that has been developed in the 2,000 years since the gospels were written. It’s a lot better. There is also better science. There were not divisions between science, government and religion back then like there are now. That is the only way I could legitimately agree that “the bible is a science book”. But somewhere around the 14th century, that debate played out and religion and science agreed to separate. The divorce and custody battles are still going on.