Okay. Excuse me for responding to your explicit challenges towards me.
But that’s cool it’s time for us to call it quits.
Hmmm, take a look. I have started plenty. Take a closer look and observe how often you’ve trampled what I’m trying to focus on with math and microtubules.
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Just say’n don’t throw stones from glass houses.
Oh CC, I am not challenging you . I think our thoughts are very much aligned.
We are interpreting the question from a different , but compatible perspective.
I agree with nearly everything you have posted when looking at the question that suggests an evolutionary experience of living things (Beginning, (Mind_Body_Environment, Beginning).
I believe you argue that perspective very persuasively.
It seems to be true for humans. And subjective.
My perspective on the same question is trying to remove thinking organisms like humans from any remarkable consideration and look at the universe from a dispassionate logically justifiable perspective that fundamentally there must be dynamic interaction between “common” elements.
My focused perspective does not in the least diminish my appreciation of your very “compatible” properties, dimensions, to the Wholeness (Bohm), the Singularity.
I see them as parallel paths following different but related areas of interest.
Hello Write, I’m a bit distracted today, my wife is coming home Saturday, and she has a neater sense of order then little 'ol chaotic me. I’m busy reversing 3 weeks of entropy. And have had videos playing in the background when I stumbled on this one, and I found it too cool not to share over here.
I’m not taking any sides, all of our discussions on that matter of math has managed to make it sort of a non-issue in my mind, resolved, taking siesta, am over it, so to speak. (though not with ‘consciousness’ L., but that’ll take more focus than I can muster now. I do have some notes.)
It’s interesting well presented video that I think you might enjoy the challenges it presents.
PBS Idea Channel - Jun 3, 2013
Math is invisible. Unlike physics, chemistry, and biology we can’t see it, smell it, or even directly observe it in the universe. And so that has made a lot of really smart people ask, does it actually even EXIST!!! Similar to the tree falling in the forest, there are people who believe that if no person existed to count, math wouldn’t be around . .at ALL!!!
But is this true?
Do we live in a mathless universe? Or if math is a real entity that exists, are there formulas and mathematical concepts out there in the universe that are undiscovered? Or is it all fiction? Whew!! So many questions, so many theories… watch the episode and let us know what you think!
Sophistry, pure unadulterated sophistry. Mathematics is not a “thing”. It is a guiding principle of spacetime geometry.
The only human “invention” is the symbolic representation of naturally occurring mathematically self- ordering values and functions.
Strangely, the universe does very well without human symbolic maths. But humans would not exist without universal maths.
Reputable Cosmologists declare that universal mathematics are “discovered”.
Is this guy a cosmologist?
1. Introduction
Before we begin, we deem it fit to provide some comment on our choice of the somewhat restrictive word ‘mathematical’ in the title of this paper. We shall use the phrase ‘mathematical cosmology’ as almost indistinguishable to ‘theoretical cosmology’, ascribing to both an almost identical meaning. To us, the inclusion of material under both qualifications has an analogous interpretation and is closer in spirit to the two principles of selecting material for inclusion in their Course of Theoretical Physics used by Landau and Lifshitz (cf. [1], p. xi). We shall not deal with topics that may not be properly expounded without requiring at the same time a detailed account of the existing observational results, and secondly, we shall not discuss too complicated applications of the theory. (Both of these criteria are of course somewhat subjective to some extent.)
Penrose in 1965 [103] was the first to establish a black hole singularity theorem to the effect that given certain plausible assumptions about the validity of general relativity, the structure of spacetime, and the properties of matter fields, spacetime would be geodesically incomplete.
Shortly after, Hawking adopted the topological methods introduced by Penrose and he proved several theorems for cosmological spacetimes [104], eventually leading to an ‘all-purpose’ singularity theorem in 1970 proved jointly by Hawking and Penrose [105].
These theorems, together with related work by Geroch [106,107] (see also the lectures [108–110], and the standard treatise [11]) demonstrated once and for all the supremacy of the use of topological methods in studying the global structure of spacetime. They also set a firm basis for the consideration of the singularity problem, which as emphasized by L. D. Landau, is one of the most important unsolved problems in theoretical physics [111,112].
much more… https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsta.2021.01
Sometimes, that is the best approach. The universe will go on regardless of what we think it is. Its feelings won’t be hurt, because it doesn’t have feelings. Now, if we just understood what that means to our brief existence within it.
We can learn and accept that there is no form of anthropomorphized “meaning”.
This is where conceptually, mathematics become a major contender for being a necessary aspect of creation itself. Mathematics has no “meaning,”, it has “process”.
The meaning exists in the relationship between individual or sets of values that are causal to process (effect).
Human maths are the symbolized representations of the natural processes of the relative (sets) of values.
When we look at matter that is ultimately composed of sub-atomic values, particles with zero mass, there is only one logical system that can deal with naturally regulated non-material functions (calculations).
In short, the concept of a mathematically unfolding universe is IMO so beautifully contained in Chaos Theory.
Chaos is the science of surprises, of the nonlinear and the unpredictable. It teaches us to expect the unexpected. While most traditional science deals with supposedly predictable phenomena like gravity, electricity, or chemical reactions,
Chaos Theory deals with nonlinear things that are effectively impossible to predict or control, like turbulence, weather, the stock market, our brain states, and so on. These phenomena are often described by fractal mathematics, which captures the infinite complexity of nature.
- The Butterfly Effect: This effect grants the power to cause a hurricane in China to a butterfly flapping its wings in New Mexico. It may take a very long time, but the connection is real. If the butterfly had not flapped its wings at just the right point in space/time, the hurricane would not have happened. A more rigorous way to express this is that small changes in the initial conditions lead to drastic changes in the results. Our lives are an ongoing demonstration of this principle. Who knows what the long-term effects of teaching millions of kids about chaos and fractals will be?
- Unpredictability: Because we can never know all the initial conditions of a complex system in sufficient (i.e. perfect) detail, we cannot hope to predict the ultimate fate of a complex system. Even slight errors in measuring the state of a system will be amplified dramatically, rendering any prediction useless. Since it is impossible to measure the effects of all the butterflies (etc) in the World, accurate long-range weather prediction will always remain impossible.
- Order / Disorder Chaos is not simply disorder. Chaos explores the transitions between order and disorder, which often occur in surprising ways.
https://fractalfoundation.org/resources/what-is-chaos-theory/
Consider any other concept and the initial conceptual complexity needed to give it “meaning”
Maths are the perfect example of a “demonstrated” universal process that actually taught us the laws that control natural processes in and of the spacetime geometry.
And the maths that are used to measure the extend to what a theory describes , also meets and is used in Occam’s argument itself.
Generic mathematical functions can also be applied to emergent consciousness
Generic mathematical dynamics can also be applied to emergent living systems.
I say math is most definitely created by humans.