What if God wants to come visit us?

Religion and Secularism
21

No, it’s not a contradiction. You are thinking in labels, numbers, insisting on mathematical equations to label things. You can not see how it is that the “Tao that can be named, is not the Tao.” The spirit/god/whatever that can be named is not that at all, but rather just a human concept. Something can exist and still be a great mystery, but the moment we start labeling it, it is no longer a great mystery. The moment you start Einsteining that great mystery it is no longer the great mystery, but something else.

No, it is not meaningless to the person who has the numinous state of being that is a great mystery. When you look up at the night sky and feel one with everything and all, do you ruin that feeling by Einsteining it? I seriously doubt it, but you still struggle to define it and yet it still has meaning to you, unless you insist on defining it, instead of just living in that moment and enjoying feeling being one with nature and the universe.

Only for those who insist on creating a human concept. Seriously, is there really anything wrong with have no concept of something that puts you in a state of being that is undefinable? Is the definable the only thing that has meaning?

Really? Does everything have to be controlled and if it’s not, it’s just a hallucination? Where is the enjoyment in life if one can’t feel at one with nature and the universe unless they control and define it, whatever it is?

Let me ask you this, write4u- have you ever had a baby and looked in his/her eyes for the very first time and felt a numinous oneness that is undefinable and like that one was all encompassing, all inclusive, all enveloping the universe as a whole totally beyond words, beyond human concept? Or did you just considered it an uncontrolled hallucination? IMHO, that is not a hallucination. It is living in one of the most undefinable numinous moments in life and feeling the most undefinable connectedness with the most wonderful undefinable and mysterious events ever in a human’s life. Yes, it involves childbirth, when it’s your own child it is beyond words and beyond human concepts, but it certainly is not a hallucination, god moving through us, math, or some other lame concept. It is very real, albeit neurotransmitters (also star stuff) acting, reacting, interacting with external stimuli within the universe, making it all encompassing. Anything else is just dismissing such numinous interaction.

If there is a Great Spirit/God/Great Mystery/whatever it is beyond any human concepts, yet still has great value to the one experience it, and to define it would make it no longer that. You cannot Einstein that and expect it to have meaning. You cannot Einstein that first moment when you hold your newborn in your arms and look into their eyes for the very first time. It’s been 34 years since I held my first child in my arms moments after birth, and if you have to have definition and/or a label or a mathematical equation for that, then you missed that moment entirely and never experience that state of being of oneness that is beyond words and human concepts.

I’m thinking the same thing. The thing is, not everything is solvable and not everything should be solved. Somethings just are, just like the numinous first moments with one’s newborn. IMHO to create human concept such moveable and important events makes them meaningless, when in truth, such moments are probably the most important for any being.

Yes. Somethings need to stay a mystery in order for them to have meaning. If someone had came along and said, “Oh that’s God giving you the most precious gift” it would have degraded the whole experience. If one Einsteined that moment of all encompassing numinous state with my newborn, it also would have ruined it. Calling it a hallucination would have just been the worse. Of course, there are other things and events that can cause such moments/states in life. That’s just one of many and I think they should be enjoyed, not labelled with human concepts.

Some may call this a form of spirituality, only without religious/god beliefs and that’s OK with me. I’m alright with spiritual humanism, naturalistic humanism, but destroying such moments in life that create such states with human concepts, that’s not alright. Although, I can accept external stimuli triggering internal neurotransmitters to react, in which to cause such states. Those neurotransmitters are part of the universe and look, as well as act much like the universe and are very much part of the universe, due to star stuff and all. Which means that which is in the universe is also acting/moving within me as one, causing the connectedness. While it’s not beyond neuroscience, it is beyond human concepts. Why ruin something that is star stuff inside us reacting and interacting to the star outside us with human concepts such as deities or math? IMO it makes no sense to me the dismiss neuroscience with human concept, such as math or deities or dismissed as a hallucination. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar or a beyond words and human concepts neurostimulating event is just a beyond words and human concepts neurostimulating event that doesn’t need to be defined.

What is interesting is star stuff does flow.

Unfortunately, Rita’s sister, Priscilla, become one of the MMIW. Her abusive husband killed her. That said, they do sing a clip of Cherokee Morning Song, but Priscilla doesn’t give an exact translation. That’s OK, the Wen de ya ho can give that feeling of transcendence even so, especially when you’re singing it.

Lyrics and translation to the Cherokee Morning Song:

Lyrics:
We n’ de ya ho, We n’ de ya ho,
We n’ de ya, We n’ de ya Ho ho ho ho,
He ya ho, He ya ho, Ya ya ya
Translation:
“We n’ de ya ho
Freely translated: “A we n’” (I am), “de” (of), “Yauh” -the- (Great Spirit), “Ho” (it is so).
Written as: A we n’ de Yauh ho (I am of the Great Spirit, Ho!).”
This language stems from very ancient Cherokee.
Translation by David Michael Wolfe who is an Eastern Virginia Cherokee and a cultural historian.

The human brain is a reflection of the universe, IMO, that is not only in the universe, but interacts with it, sometimes as one and all encompassing. However, some people refuse to allow themselves such very natural states without creating some sort of human concept around it or dismissing it, even calling it meaningless, when they can’t. The thing is, these states are all part of the human experience and we have a perfectly good neuroscience explanation, which doesn’t Einstein it all away or dismiss it as meaningless. This explanation doesn’t label it or create any human concepts, it just explain how the neurotransmitters react to the external stimuli within the universe. That’s all the explanation need, not deity or human concepts necessary to define it, but Rita does have a good take too.

1 Like
22

No?
How do you figure that?
Where is math produced, where it is exercised?

Perhaps you should watch the videos, if you see a problem with any of it, I’d love to hear about it.

Mriana, I need to save your comment for tomorrow.

Good night,

23

Everywhere! Continuously since the beginning.

Note that self-organization is a mathematical function. It does not require thought, just the exchange of “values”.

We used to measured time in days (solar rotation). Today we measure time with cesium (atomic rotation)

Why is cesium used to measure time in atomic clocks?

(Why is cesium used to measure time in atomic clocks? - Physics Stack Exchange)

1 From an improbable source: “Cesium has a single valence electron (unpaired) in the S-shell. In other words, it has an electron that’s easy to observe (thus easy to use to tell time ).” This HowStuffWorks article has a very lucid explanation of how a cesium clock actually functions. – Robert Harvey Sep 23 , 2014

[quote=“citizenschallengev4, post:19, topic:10479”]
Are we all just running on molecular clockwork?

Everything is. Science is the discipline of measuring the clockwork. That is “how” we have been able to discover that all things have an intrinsic “value” or “potential” that can be understood and expressed through the human use of mathematics, but mathematics themselves do not rely on humans or any biological organisms. It creates them!
(Evolution via Natural Selection is a mathematical function)

H2O is a mathematical equation with some very interesting potentials. It can exist as a gas, a liquid, or a solid. And it can do so without thought. God doesn’t have anything to do with that. Mathematics do!

Note that the term “differential equations” describes the dynamics of interaction by different values.

This is why IMO, God or any other “supernatural source” is an unsuccessful attempt to describe the abstract mathematical nature of Universal spacetime .

Religion speaks of “intelligent design” by an unknowable mind, a mathematical term that can also be expressed as a mathematically knowable “quasi-intelligent self-ordering system”.

24

The Universe does not use maths.

A non-corporeal/corporeal (matter/anti-matter, if you prefer) thing has no need of mathematics. Humans do, but not the Universe. The Universe just is.

What does the Universe need with math? It is only humans who use it, but mathematics isn’t the end all and be all. As I said, the human brain mirrors what we see in the Universe. The electrical reactions of the brain are very much like the Universe. Neuroscience can take you through the universe of your brain and what you see is very much like the external Universe. The internal reacts to the external stimuli of the Universe and what you get is a neurotransmitter reaction that gives the very state of being I’ve been talking about. There is no maths needed if you understand the workings of the brain. Once you Einstein it, it diminishes that state, instead of accepting it as part of the human condition.

Only by humans. Humans created mathematics.

Yes, humans use it, but the Universe does not. It just is. It just exists and is in all of us. We are made of star stuffs, even Neil deGrasse Tyson and other scientists say this.

Mathematics doesn’t create anything. Various actions and reactions do. Suns are not created nor do they die with maths. It is action and reactions. When a star (which suns are), go supernova, they die, but it’s not mathematics that did it.

Humans created the equation.

You know there is such a thing as the human condition and sometimes that human condition just has to stand back and allow the external stimuli trigger the internal chemistry of the brain to create numinous feelings and sometimes the state of being where one is just one with the Universe and everything else. Sometimes one just needs to sit back and enjoy the neurotransmitter reactions the Universe triggers inside them and not try to Einstein it to death. The Evolutionary process acted and reacted to eventually create everyone and everything, which also included the human condition. Humans may have created Psychology and Neurology, even the word Evolution, but it was the Universe that created the universe within us that causes us to feel at one with it. We are made up of everything in the Universe and the Universe is in us and one doesn’t need maths to feel at one with it. It’s just a state of being and if one listens to that, appreciates that and then follows the science, which humans created to comprehend what is happening, it would go along ways to slow Climate Change down. We diminish the human condition with meaningless numbers and what you get is lazy, uncaring, and scientifically illiterate human beings who cling to mythology. Mathematics doesn’t relate to humans, but using the psychology and accepting the neurology, which leads to the human condition will you get humans relate and care for the Earth in meaningful ways that have meaningful improvements. You take from the human experience and the human condition with nonsensical numbers, and humans just don’t give a damn, eventually destroying themselves while saying, “God did it”. You have to get humans in align with the Universe and the Earth, which means you may have to take from beliefs like the Native Americans and the Tao to achieve this unity that will stop us from destroying ourselves.

25

And it is inherently mathematical in essence.

26

Humans symbolized equations. But “differential equations” is the dynamical causal mechanism that exists between 2 or more values.

Differential Equations in Real Life

Real life use of Differential Equations

Differential equations have a remarkable ability to predict the world around us. They are used in a wide variety of disciplines, from biology, economics, physics, chemistry and engineering. They can describe exponential growth and decay, the population growth of species or the change in investment return over time.

A differential equation is one which is written in the form dy/dx = ………. Some of these can be solved (to get y = ……) simply by integrating, others require much more complex mathematics.

Population Models

One of the most basic examples of differential equations is the Malthusian Law of population growth dp/dt = rp shows how the population (p) changes with respect to time. The constant r will change depending on the species. Malthus used this law to predict how a species would grow over time.

More complicated differential equations can be used to model the relationship between predators and prey. For example, as predators increase then prey decrease as more get eaten. But then the predators will have less to eat and start to die out, which allows more prey to survive. The interactions between the two populations are connected by differential equations.

Note that our symbolizations are the human description of naturally occurring events.

Human symbolized maths describe the logic of spacetime functions.

Function (mathematics)

Association of one output to each input

Function (mathematics)

In mathematics, a function from a set X to a set Y assigns to each element of X exactly one element of Y. The set X is called the domain of the function and the set Y is called the codomain of the function. Wikipedia

Note that the output is a “result” of a mathematical function. And so it is with all things in the universe.

The production of a previously non-existent particle, the Higgs boson was a result of combining the necessary mathematical values to create an environment where bosons are probabilistically and spontaneously produced.

image
image1440×1132 381 KB

The particle that we now call the Higgs boson first appeared in a scientific paper written by Peter Higgs in 1964.

At that time, physicists were working on describing the weak force – one of the four fundamental forces of Nature – using a framework called quantum field theory.

Particle, wave or both?

Quantum field theory describes the microscopic world of particles very differently to everyday life. Fundamental “quantum fields” fill the universe and dictate what nature can and cannot do. In this description, every particle can be represented by a wave in a “field”, similar to a ripple on the surface of a vast ocean. One example is the photon, the particle of light, which is a wave in the electromagnetic field.

27

I’m not so sure of that. AFAIK, morals can be expressed as mathematical equations,
with results varying from “positive” to “negative” and “variable” in response to any change in the environment.

Note that every description of the nature of the universe requires the use of mathematical functions. It is the “language of the universe” (Galileo)

Why is math called the language of the universe?
By: Anne Marie Helmenstine, Ph.D.
Updated June 27, 2019

Mathematics is called the language of science. Italian astronomer and physicist Galileo Galilei is attributed with the quote, “Mathematics is the language in which God has written the universe.” Most likely this quote is a summary of his statement in Opere Il Saggiatore:

[The universe] cannot be read until we have learnt the language and become familiar with the characters in which it is written. It is written in mathematical language, and the letters are triangles, circles and other geometrical figures, without which means it is humanly impossible to comprehend a single word.

Yet, is mathematics truly a language, like English or Chinese? To answer the question, it helps to know what language is and how the vocabulary and grammar of mathematics are used to construct sentences.

WHAT IS A LANGUAGE?

There are multiple definitions of “language.” A language may be a system of words or codes used within a discipline. Language may refer to a system of communication using symbols or sounds. Linguist Noam Chomsky defined language as a set of sentences constructed using a finite set of elements. Some linguists believe language should be able to represent events and abstract concepts.

Verbs include symbols including:

  1. Equalities or inequalities (=, <, >)**
  2. Actions such as addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division (+, -, x or , ÷ or /)*
  3. Other operations (sin, cos, tan, sec)**
28

You still have to get people to do the math.

Much easier to get them to listen to a story. The mathematical nature of the universe led to music, rhythm, and tales.

I was on a steamboat on Lake Wakatipu last night, singing Side By Side with 200 people from all over the world. That happens every night. Try that with math.

1 Like
29

Not really. You only need people to symbolize and do the maths in order to understand.
The natural mathematics happen without input of humans.

30

To you, but not to everyone.

Which humans created.

While I think morals can be found in the interaction of the neurotransmitters in our brains reacting to the external stimuli within the Universe, which is the same thing. Neuroscience and psychology are important aspect of this, because it examines the human condition. Math doesn’t necessarily need to be part of it, unless you attempting stats.

Does it really?

I never knew it was and I really don’t see how it is, when it relates to the human experience. IMHO, this view takes away from the human experience. The only time I used math while getting my psychology degree was when I was doing research and using statistics. Otherwise, I did not use any maths.

You don’t have much by way of people skills do you? I don’t suppose you’ve ever done a Sweat, experience the 4 Doors and all of that stuff, have you? Of course, it does related to the neurotransmitters and stuff, I talked about, as well as the physical state of the individual experiencing the sweat, but it is an experience beyond mathematics. There are no equations to a Sweat or any other neurostimulating ritual.

1 Like
31

Ahh yes, and that was already observed by Pythagoras, Plato, and Aristotle

Explore how Pythagoras and Plato found mathematics in music and nature in this video from NOVA: The Great Math Mystery.

The ancient Greeks identified three pleasing musical intervals: an octave, a fifth, and a fourth. Pythagoras discovered that the beautiful musical relationship between the notes was also a mathematical relationship: the harmonious sounds are produced by vibrating strings with particular ratios of string length.

> Plato believed geometry and mathematics exist in their own ideal world and that certain shapes (now known as the Platonic solids) were associated with the classical elements from which the world was made: earth, fire, air, water, and the universe.

Note that the “sciences” have constantly shown how the universe works, whereas “religions” have not changed in 5000 years from the time of the first “question”.

32

In answer to the OP question;
The universal mathematical functions (gods) are visiting us every moment of unfolding reality. Watch this excellent video.

The mathematical function offers the ability to recognize and categorize “common denominators”, which are essential in the study of evolution and natural selection of all things in the universe, as well as the universe itself.

33

So, you can get people to behave morally without their input? I’d like to see that.

I know the math happens. You said you could calculate good. You said, “AFAIK, morals can be expressed as mathematical equations,”

1 Like
34

Yes, by cataloguing behaviors and giving them values respective of the known behaviors and consequences. You can calculate probabilities in any state of chaos from the patterns that emerge at any time.

> Chaos theory

35

It’s like talking to a wall with you. Which is the same experience you would have if you talked to my brother in law about morality.

36

…

I like that.

===============================

I also like this,

2:50
Okay the fact that math works at all as a tool to decode the universe is evidence that the universe at least the parts that have to revealed itself to us follows logical repeatable patterns.

And math is simply a way to code for logical repeatable patterns.

So, it’s remarkable that math can describe the universe at all except that math is a perfectly logical system and so is the universe put them together of course it’s a marriage made in heaven

Okay enough of the wise-cracking Americans, here’s a serious German giving a serious Germanic once over.

37

You sound like a salesman. I still say not everyone has to use maths.

[quote=“citizenschallengev4, post:36, topic:10479”]

I like that.[/quote]

Thank you. :slight_smile:

Unlike write4u, deGrasse didn’t say the Universe uses math though.

1 Like
38

He did not not deny it either. He is obligated to be a diplomatic scientist.

But everyone uses maths every second of the day, whether they are aware of it or not.

Can you give an example that does not contain one or several mathematical calculations.

I’m sorry. I did not make myself clear.
I am not discussing the human condition. I am addressing the question of a “visiting god” in universal terms as much as scripture addresses the question of a “visiting god”.

Mathematics is what humans actually know and understand about Universal Mechanics and they require no god or God doesn’t care and is moot.

The question is not “Why” but “How”. Mathematically self-organizing patterns of “values”, becoming expressed in reality as physical objects is the most elegant of of all theories.

The secret is hidden in the Study of Logical Values

Truth Values

First published Tue Mar 30, 2010; substantive revision Tue Nov 3, 2020

Truth values have been put to quite different uses in philosophy and logic, being characterized, for example, as:

  • primitive abstract objects denoted by sentences in natural and formal languages,
  • abstract entities hypostatized as the equivalence classes of sentences,
  • what is aimed at in judgements,
  • values indicating the degree of truth of sentences,
  • entities that can be used to explain the vagueness of concepts,
  • values that are preserved in valid inferences,
  • values that convey information concerning a given proposition.

Depending on their particular use, truth values have been treated as unanalyzed, as defined, as unstructured, or as structured entities.

More… Truth Values (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

39

No. I still say mathematics is not necessary to discuss the human condition and the neurology involved.

And that’s what I like about him.

2 Likes
40

I’m sorry, did I not make myself clear? The idea of a god visiting is part of the human condition. People believe what they believe and it involves neurology to perpetuate this belief. Neurology, belief, concepts, etc are all part of the human condition and not maths, but go ahead and get mad because I don’t agree. That too seems to be part of the human condition- to get angry when another doesn’t agree.

1 Like