This is why Joni Mitchell became so admired as a songwriter. She brought a new structural concept to song lyrics. Her lyrics are true poetry set to wonderful musical chord-progressions and syncopation.
One of my all time favorite songs is “Both Sides Now”
I cannot help but weep when I listen to her magical storytelling.
That’s an interesting take on the song, but if that’s true and his “baby” finds out, then she’ll be singing “Enough is Enough.”
It doesn’t appear obvious to me that Joni Mitchell, Judy Collins and Barbara Streisand have anything romantic, in the academic definition of the term.
Listened to those clips, and it sounds like normal music, just a bit lyric, but IMK, lyricism did not start nor ended with romanticism, and is not an apanage of romanticism.
Listened to the B. J. Thomas and I like it very much. I like American country and folk music.
Romanticism is much another thing, it is a tortured artistic movement, which likes the bizarre, the dyonisiac, and the radically subjective. The hippie-related music of the 60s is a rejuvenation of that.
Romantics like collage (or associations) so they will paste together folk art, with intellectual art, with experimentation, etc. etc. Very torturing, as I said. Just look at a painting of Picasso (“a particularly violent and misogynistic man, who spent his life crushing those less powerful and less privileged than himself.”[1]), and you will understand what I mean.
And it is very well in contradiction, in opposition to secular humanism as CFI defines it.
Unfortunately, it is seldom criticized. The only frontal and popular critics I know, and he is a self-identified humanist, is Alain de Botton. But De Botton is an existentialist, so… not compatible with my understanding of humanism.
[1] Vénus s’épilait-elle la chatte? # Picasso, séparer l’homme de l’artiste, Slate audio
And how does CFI define humanism? Do you have a source?
And country music? Really? About as romantic as you can get isn’t it?
Yes, here
Country music is traditional, popular music. Nothing to see with romanticism as an artistic movement.
Thanks for that.
And how is Joni Mitchell in contradiction to it?
I said “It doesn’t appear obvious to me that Joni Mitchell, Judy Collins and Barbara Streisand have anything romantic, in the academic definition of the term”
You also said the quote in post 84. See what I’m saying about avoiding responding?
Joni Mitchell isn’t in contradiction with humanism and I don’t consider Joni Mitchell as a romantic…
So now you are contradicting yourself. Or is there something you could clarify about post 84?
I said in 86 “It doesn’t appear obvious to me that Joni Mitchell, Judy Collins and Barbara Streisand have anything romantic”.
What is the problem?
Post 84. What “it” is in contradiction?
I’m curious how many French speakers do we have here?
How about some links that the unwashed non-French speakers can read or listen to.
Did we say they were romantic? I didn’t. I said, if he was cheating on her and she found out about it, then she’d be saying, “Enough is enough”, but if you want romantic…
And just to switch it up a little, if you like:
Hot much hot romance do you want? I have more.
Oh HOLD UP, @lozenge
You totally miss the whole point of Disco!
Romanticism (also known as the Romantic movement or Romantic era ) is an artistic and intellectual movement that originated in Europe towards the end of the 18th century.
Disco was not far from that at all. It is very artistic and shows women have brains… most of the time. While I like the song, I’m not too keen on “Don’t Leave Me This Way.” Trust me, there was a subculture with Disco that was not lacking in anything, including artistic creativity, romance, and freedom.
For most of the Western world, it was at its peak from approximately 1800 to 1850. Romanticism was characterized by its emphasis on emotion and individualism as well as glorification of the past and nature, preferring the medieval to the classical. Romanticism was partly a reaction to the Industrial Revolution,[1] and the prevailing ideology of the Age of Enlightenment, especially the scientific rationalization of Nature.[2] It was embodied most strongly in the visual arts, music, and literature; it also had a major impact on historiography,[3] education,[4] chess, social sciences, and the natural sciences.[5] It had a significant and complex effect on politics: Romantic thinking influenced conservatism, liberalism, radicalism, and nationalism.[6][7]
And there you go- Disco is music and an art form at least 120 BPM, expressing sexual freedom and right to love who you fell in love with. That’s where the LBGT movement began. It’s was also part of Women’s Lib too. Of course, there were drugs in some cases, but not everyone did the drugs.
The movement emphasized intense emotion as an authentic source of aesthetic experience
That’s there too.
Romanticism placed the highest importance on the freedom of the artist to authentically express their sentiments and ideas. Romantics like the German painter Caspar David Friedrich believed that an artist’s emotions should dictate their formal approach; Friedrich went as far as declaring that “the artist’s feeling is his law”.[13]
What do you think Disco was and still is? It was an expression of sexual freedom for straight women, gays, lesbians, minorities, etc. And trust me, there was a LOT of artistic expression, even on roller skates. Not to mention Romance- both the good and the bad. If women didn’t like the bad, they went onto something else, with the message they won’t take it any more when they left, even saying, “I should have changed the locks. I should have made you leave your key”, because I don’t need to be dependent on you. I can find a better man." And gays, lesbians, and crossdressers weren’t beyond expressing themselves either. That was the whole Disco revolution- sexual freedom and romance.
So don’t tell me that Barbra Streisand and Donna Summer don’t cut the mustard. Sylvester isn’t bad either for what he did. It put new meaning into Liberalism, romance, artistry, and Radical.
Trust me, Disco is where tortured artistic stuff is, bizarre most definitely, dyonisiac, and radicalism. Did you miss out on the 70s? Please! More Sylvester and Studio 54 please, if you can’t see the dyonisiac. Let’s not forget my favourite… Roller Disco!
Thank you for all these explanations.
“Did you miss out on the 70s?” I did. Of course I know the Bee Gees, ABBA, etc. and I think it’s good music.
Again, romanticism is a precise artistic movement, with common sets of references, values, etc. There is a real continuous line from the first European romantics of the 19th century, to the European surrealists of 1920s, to the Beat Generation of the 1950s (the first ones explicity influencing the second one, and so on).
From what you describe, I don’t feel “disco” is an heir or is related to romanticism. It would be what I call “entertainment” art, that is, normal, true art.
Just listening to “Stayin’ Alive” and it is not torturing at all. It is joyful, highly technical, and pro-social. Same for “Mamma Mia”.
How can it be precise with common values and be the authentic expressions of each artist? The second part of that is from the definition you provided.
I don’t think you understand the movement behind Disco.
