Two of the most convincing arguments for Intelligent design

Science and Technology
41
neither have u presented so far a solid case for naturalism
Wait a moment. If you want to put naturalism on trial - do so. File your list of complaints and observations. So far this has supposedly been about Intelligent design, but you kinda fell on your face with that one. OK, wanna switch your tack, fine. Lets see if you can do better with your implied indictment of naturalism. What's your gripe? Spell it out lad.
42
Here is a challenge for you: define the Creator without resorting to logical fallacies.
Every question posed to him has the same answer... "Just read http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/t77-who-created-god." I expect the same here, since I honestly don't think he knows what he thinks. He believes certain things to be true, but has no idea WHY they're true... they just are and he has a website that 'proves' it because the website says that it proves it. It's not his fault he's like this - I bet early indoctrination and/or a failed education system are the major reason he doesn't see the mistakes he's making. The damage is done and we can only do our best to help, but the fact that he is here preaching, although annoying, might get him thinking. Yes, such websites are like the bible. If the web managers say what's on them is true, then, they are true. No two ways about it. Lois
43
3point14rat, What's a Poe?
Poe A person who writes a parody of a Fundamentalist that is mistaken for the real thing. Due to Poe's Law, it is almost impossible to tell if a person is a Poe unless they admit to it. "The Bible is true because it's the inerrant word of God! I know because the Bible says so! Glory!" Urban Dictionary
44
Isn't any form of intelligent design an attempt to give CPR to creationism? If so, There is no convincing argument, or intelligent argument for that matter.
That's all it is, as the Dover trial made obvious. The people who promote ID are not ignorant, they are liars.
45
3point14rat, What's a Poe?
Poe A person who writes a parody of a Fundamentalist that is mistaken for the real thing. Due to Poe's Law, it is almost impossible to tell if a person is a Poe unless they admit to it. "The Bible is true because it's the inerrant word of God! I know because the Bible says so! Glory!" Urban Dictionary Thanks lois
46
Isn't any form of intelligent design an attempt to give CPR to creationism? If so, There is no convincing argument, or intelligent argument for that matter.
That's all it is, as the Dover trial made obvious. The people who promote ID are not ignorant, they are liars. The Dover case, a good argument against ID ? http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/t1795-the-dover-case-a-good-argument-against-id?highlight=dover
47
Isn't any form of intelligent design an attempt to give CPR to creationism? If so, There is no convincing argument, or intelligent argument for that matter.
That's all it is, as the Dover trial made obvious. The people who promote ID are not ignorant, they are liars. The Dover case, a good argument against ID ? http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/t1795-the-dover-case-a-good-argument-against-id?highlight=dover I've veld told you no one is impressed with the religious nonsense you keep linking. Are you capable of thinking for yourself?
48
Isn't any form of intelligent design an attempt to give CPR to creationism? If so, There is no convincing argument, or intelligent argument for that matter.
That's all it is, as the Dover trial made obvious. The people who promote ID are not ignorant, they are liars. The Dover case, a good argument against ID ? http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/t1795-the-dover-case-a-good-argument-against-id?highlight=dover I've veld told you no one is impressed with the religious nonsense you keep linking. Are you capable of thinking for yourself? What would you expect to see in the natural world to convince yourself the natural world was caused by a intelligence ?
49
What would you expect to see in the natural world to convince yourself the natural world was caused by a intelligence ?
You're the one claiming an intelligence caused the natural world. The burden of proof is on you. You need to come up with a testable hypothesis, not me.
50
What would you expect to see in the natural world to convince yourself the natural world was caused by a intelligence ?
You're the one claiming an intelligence caused the natural world. The burden of proof is on you. You need to come up with a testable hypothesis, not me. ah ah... http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/t1659-confirmation-of-intelligent-design-predictions?highlight=predictions it seems all you have, is a argument from incredulity. Nice.
51
What would you expect to see in the natural world to convince yourself the natural world was caused by a intelligence ?
You're the one claiming an intelligence caused the natural world. The burden of proof is on you. You need to come up with a testable hypothesis, not me. DarronS this exchange is proof of your signature line Agreed. See his latest nonsense post.
52
3point14rat, What's a Poe?
Poe A person who writes a parody of a Fundamentalist that is mistaken for the real thing. Due to Poe's Law, it is almost impossible to tell if a person is a Poe unless they admit to it. "The Bible is true because it's the inerrant word of God! I know because the Bible says so! Glory!" Urban Dictionary Thanks loisSorry I missed your question, but this answer is perfect. Basically, there is no position so crazy that someone can't mockingly claim to believe it, and others won't confuse it for a sincere belief because there really are folks out there who actually believe it. Check out Edward Current on Youtube (https://www.youtube.com/user/EdwardCurrent) for some good examples. He mocks religion and conspiracy theories, but some of his early comments were how great his videos were.
53
the alternative to a eternal designer is ? i see basically two. the universe created itself. or it is eternal. Both options are not viable.
Why not? The answer is, everything we know. No one knows which of the three alternatives presented here are true. We can only argue probabilities. More important for those of us who aren't astrophysicists, we have to decide how to live our lives. If I accept an eternal designer, that implies they are still around, and possibly involved with creation in a way that affects me personally. If that were true, I'd want to know, and I'd want to be convinced of it before I started deciding how many times to face east or what to wear or what to eat. At the very best, you've provided evidence that A designer created the universe. You've done nothing to show it has any interest in me. Even if you're right, it appears it left me only clues for how to deal with my natural environment, a soulless, non-caring bunch of minerals that smash into each other and create giants balls of flame that turn into energy I can use and other things that also don't really care much about what I'm doing at the moment.
54
8... A holographic universe entails a world made of information. And information requires a mind to know it. Information never just floats, information is of a mind, who knows it.
So the Universe is a hologram inside the mind of God. Alrighty then.
55
the alternative to a eternal designer is ? i see basically two. the universe created itself. or it is eternal. Both options are not viable.
Why not? The answer is, everything we know. No one knows which of the three alternatives presented here are true. We can only argue probabilities. More important for those of us who aren't astrophysicists, we have to decide how to live our lives. If I accept an eternal designer, that implies they are still around, and possibly involved with creation in a way that affects me personally. If that were true, I'd want to know, and I'd want to be convinced of it before I started deciding how many times to face east or what to wear or what to eat. At the very best, you've provided evidence that A designer created the universe. You've done nothing to show it has any interest in me. Even if you're right, it appears it left me only clues for how to deal with my natural environment, a soulless, non-caring bunch of minerals that smash into each other and create giants balls of flame that turn into energy I can use and other things that also don't really care much about what I'm doing at the moment. because from absolutely nothing, nothing can arise. and a eternal universe would be in a state of heath death, if the second law of thermodynamics is in action.
56
because from absolutely nothing, nothing can arise. and a eternal universe would be in a state of heath death, if the second law of thermodynamics is in action.
Why not? Nothing cannot exist, ergo there is something. That's the philosophical view. From a physics viewpoint, if you sum all the matter in the universe and subtract the potential gravitational energy of that matter the result is zero, which means the universe is a special case of nothing. Now tell me more about your designer. Does it like music? Fajitas? Margaritas? Dogs? Edit: fixed a typo
57
because from absolutely nothing, nothing can arise. and a eternal universe would be in a state of heath death, if the second law of thermodynamics is in action.
Why not? Nothing cannot exist, ergo there is something. That's the philosophical view. From a physics viewpoint, if you sum all the matter in the universe and subtract the potential gravitational energy of that matter the rebut is zero, which means the universe is a special case of nothing. Now tell me more about your designer. Does it like music? Fajitas? Margaritas? Dogs? Dang, Darron, sometimes you are funnier than I think I am. Also, I just wanted to point out that if this statement "from absolutely nothing, nothing can arise" is correct, then it literally states that nothing can arise from nothing. Then, would there be two nothings? Or maybe even a potentially infinite number of nothings? I can't quite wrap my mind (which exists as a teeny part of a hologram within the mind of God) around it.
58

Something and Nothing (by Murray Lachlan Young)
If beyond everything there is nothing
And nothing knows nothing of things
And nothing knows nothing of nothing
Then everything’s everything
And for every thing to be something
First something must say things are things
For without a thing, to decide things are things
Tell me how can a thing be a thing?
But when something says something is nothing
Then nothing is known by a thing
So the thing that said something is nothing
Makes nothing a thing that’s something
If beyond everything there is nothing
And nothing knows nothing of things
And something knows something of nothing
Can nothing not, not be a thing?
I found this on a BBC Forum about the conversation of science and religion existing together. It was held at CERN.

59

Strangely, I understood that. Very well written. I wish I could write like that.

60
because from absolutely nothing, nothing can arise. and a eternal universe would be in a state of heath death, if the second law of thermodynamics is in action.
Where did this law come from? It came from that "nothing" that you refuse to consider. There is a part of the universe that doesn't conform to that law, but somehow gives rise to it. Until we have a unified theory of everything, we can't say exactly how. My limited understanding is that there is a quantum field. Black holes can arise from that. Black holes are not stable, like rocks, but they can create another black hole. Those black holes can create increasing larger and longer lasting black holes, until you have a universe, like ours, that appears very conducive to the existence of black holes, while very hostile to life like you and me.