Oblivion to stimuli (death) is not preferable to living and experiencing ecstasy (as well as sorrow). Life and living requires some sacrifice. One must be willing to pay that price to find a happy medium that allows you access to discovery of universal wonders.
This is at the heart of the matter. What shapes us? Why do we believe certain things? You choose to stop at that point and call it done. Even though you say youâve run the thought experiment, asking why over and over until you know the ultimate conclusion is that there is nothing at the end of that. But I know you havenât done that because itâs not possible. Itâs not possible to know everything that is happening now, let alone back through the history of the known physical universe.
Have you ever actually given us any evidence? I canât remember. Maybe once. Thatâs annoying. Again, you miss interesting discussions. Like how we change our criminal justice system, how we treat offenders, how we attempt to rehabilitate people who are harming others. You show no desire to look into anything. Meaningless is not a license to stop caring.
Do you see the incoherence of that sentence? I think you mean âconcernedâ not âcorneredâ but either way there is no âyouâ to be concerned when youâre dead, so you are presenting a solution for âyouâ that doesnât exist. The question of existence is that you only get one shot at it, not whether or not there is an alternative.
I missed that you are a neuroscientist. Do you have a paper out about how our brains are wired? If thatâs our primary wiring, then how did we build the Large Hadron Collider at CERN? There are people there from all over the world who have set aside their tribal differences for the pursuit of the big question of how all of this began.
You can say you arenât interested in that, but the irony is, because millions of other people were interested in studying how this world works, you can now read something that says there is no god, free will isnât real, and every philosopher that has ever lived has some flaw in their philosophy. So, after four million years of evolving from creatures that were having fun running away from bigger creatures and eating berries, then moving rocks around that lined up with the seasons, you decided none of it is worth anything, based on everything all of those people passed on to you. Isnât that ironic?
One doesnât have to pay that price, again youâre making it sound like we have to live when we donât. Who cares about universal wonders? In death we need not be concerned over such things.
I donât have to know everything to know we are products of everything around and before us. As for why we do, who can really say. We donât choose our beliefs or what we are convinced by.
You havenât shown how we have a choice when we have experiments to show that our brains make choices before we are aware of them.
As for how we change our justice system, I donât know. But none of that changes the fact that there doesnât seem to be evidence for free will let alone choice. What I say isnât wrong just because I donât have a solution for how society should implement it.
And death is a solution, thatâs what I mean when I said we donât have to be concerned in death because there is no âyouâ anymore.
Itâs not ironic. There wasnât a need for any of that so what is there to thank them for. I canât help the time Iâm born in so why should I be grateful for any of it? Thatâs the same logic people use for nationalism when in reality they canât help being born where they are.
We are wired for tribalism, there is plenty of anthropological evidence to show the many conflicts humans had with other tribes across the years. The only thing that really changed is that we expanded that notion of our tribe but itâs still there.
I would also argue against the notion that people set aside their tribal differences, as anyone knows academia is pretty much rife with that sort of politics and tribalism, not to mention disasters like the pandemic show how paper thin the notion of unity is.
Itâs like the saying how civilization is a thin veneer that falls apart under the slightest of pressures.
But you keep saying you have it all figured out.
The only experiments I know are on choices to move a finger. That doesnât tell us much about how we determine who in our life is important to us or what we care about. But we do care. I donât know why, but I care what you are going to say next.
If injustice came to your town, to your house, you would have something to say about it.
I didnât ask you to give thanks or be grateful.
And what about the more recent, verifiable evidence of democracy and exchanges of culture? Thatâs the opposite of tribalism.
We worked together across borders to create a vaccine in record time. You only see the evidence you want to see.
The irony is that if all of those other things would not have happened, you wouldnât have this opinion that you do. Billions of people have looked at the world differently than you do, but somehow, you still think you are right and they are deluding themselves. You are trying to convince people that they are not happy. Thatâs an uphill battle. It doesnât matter how they came to be happy, or that they are happy because of a chemical reaction. Part of that chemical reaction is that there is something, maybe itâs an illusion, that feels like a choice to seek happiness. And they choose it, whatever it means to choose.
No, I did not. Why would you not want to concern yourself with that stuff? I really think you need psychiatrist, some meds, and a psychologist, because it sounds to me, you are ill and need health care.
I know we donât really have free will so not sure what youâre getting at.
It sorta does, whoâs important in your life is based on frequency that you see them as well as whether you do things for each other or not. Thatâs why itâs easy to make friends in high school and elementary school and not as an adult.
I donât know what reality youâre living in but the current global climate is growing increasingly tribalistic. Brexit was one example, the MAGA nutbars, increasing tensions in Europe over immigrants, the list goes on.
Irrelevant.
Sounds like someone with no real answer to the question. Meds and âtherapistsâ canât answer the question because they by default assume life is preferable with no real thought put into it.
Again, like I said, you proved my point. In death I donât have to worry about being happy or sad, so it sounds pretty good. But as long as you live you effectively must do things you like or enjoy and concern yourself with such things otherwise you suffer. Iâd rather not do all that but since there is no painless way to die Iâm stuck here.
What you gave is a non answer, a dodge. And like Iâve said before, the arguments in favor of living only work if you HAVE to live and are prohibited from death.
Only if you have not learned to enjoy and appreciate being alive.
I donât fear death, but I enjoy being alive. Itâs a matter of perspective.
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Iâm talking about your logic. You ask âwho can say?â rhetorically. You say we get convinced of whatâs true but we donât know why. And you say because we donât have free will and donât have to be here there is no reason to be good, that joy doesnât make life worth living, and death is preferable because you have no worries. How did you figure all that out, and how did you decide?
You have taken one part of the answer of who we are and turned it into a reason to not think about who we are. You say we canât choose, but who choose to conclude that âno free willâ means âI donât have to concern myself with how I liveâ. Itâs getting pretty obvious that you donât want to work toward a better life, and you are developing a worldview that justifies that.
Like that. You arenât the first one do this, so donât be too proud of having discovered something. Itâs the basic breaking of the social contract. Donât turn this into a conversation about whether or not the social contract exists, thatâs not the point. People who are oppressed do this; they see the world is not designed for their flourishing, that they are treated unfairly, that there are rules designed so others can take from them, so they throw out all rules or any suggestion of what âgoodâ or âmoralâ means, and they destroy whatever they want to get what they want.
You at least are doing this peacefully. I give you credit for that. You talk about reading and learning and even trying counseling. Sorry those havenât worked for you. I hope you keep trying, even if itâs just to prove me wrong.
What you donât know is that I do have a psychology degree. Iâve also been trained to know when someone needs help for an illness. I do work in the health care profession too.
No, itâs not a non-answer. What it is recognizing when someone is ill. This is not a diagnosis of what the illness is, but rather saying you need to seek health care. Just because one has a possible mental illness doesnât mean you are crazy. It only means they are ill. When one is ill, they seek care from a health care professional. In this case, a psychiatrist and a psychologist. Both are doctors, just not physicians.
I have to wonder how much worth there is to it if you have to âlearn to enjoyâ it. I think conversations about life and itâs worth arenât going to amount to much if we just by default assume life is worth living.
No, itâs pretty obvious I donât see a point in that when I donât have to.
So far your logic isnât really adding up and just assumes life to be worthwhile without showing that to be true. So itâs hard to take your points seriously when you donât really back them and just assume the conclusion.
I figured that out from experiences and what I read which led me to that conclusion. Really not sure what youâre getting at here.
You are so far off the mark Iâm not even sure weâre talking about the same thing right now. LikeâŚyou really donât get it. You arenât seeing the bigger picture. The point is that there is no real reason to be kind, but the same would go for cruelty. You could make an argument for it being easier, but long term people will stop you.
But this goes back to there being this assumption like there is some rightness we can judge each other with, something we can point to and there really isnât. Itâs just whatever people think is such and theyâve fought over the years for whoâs will win out.
Your training means nothing when it comes to questions and topics like this. You assume wanting death is due to mental illness when that doesnât follow. You also by default assume life is worth living when Iâve told you that argument only works if we HAVE to be alive, and we donât.
Thatâs why my therapists canât really help me with this because they avoid the question and their responses to me arenât convincing because they just assume everything thinks like they do and that their view is right. But you canât just by default assume life is worthwhile, you have to explain that to someone.
And no, incredulity and dismissal arenât arguments.
Again, youâre dodging, youâre doing the same thing they do when someone posits a valid point and there is no answer. Maybe it makes them uncomfortable that someone can be lucid and want to die, it wouldnât be the first time mental illness was invoked to avoid uncomfortable discussions.
You say Iâm ill because you donât have an actual answer to my question. This isnât illness, itâs a real question on why life is worth living. Iâve been like this since I was a kid, wondering why bother will all this and so far no one has a good answer that isnât just banal platitude or just brushing it off as mental illness.
Stop dodging the question.
Itâs funny, you say you donât get my logic, then you show the logic that is the basic logic of choosing how to live. I donât assume a conclusion, I could see when I was young that there was a lot to learn, so I did, and there is still always something to learn. There is no simple formula of the type that you state.
So, above, no reason to be kind or cruel. Okay, no ultimate cosmic, total balance of all possibilities way to reason out the choice of kindness or cruelty. I assume you were referring to cruelty when you said you could make an argument for it being easier, and you got it exactly right that people will eventually try, and probably succeed at stopping you. Even the most successful cruel gangster eventually realizes that there isnât a good retirement plan, and someone younger takes them out.
Thatâs exactly what Iâm talking about. You weigh those options. You choose kindness because lots of people say itâs the right choice, then people screw you over because youâre so nice. Yep, thatâs life. But not everyone does, the odds are good someone notices your kindness and you make a few friends and you have some good times. Also life.
You say Iâm just assuming a conclusion, but Iâm doing no such thing. I donât know what horrible things might visit me in the next few hours, but Iâm not going to choose cruelty because kindness might not work out. You want me to present some sort of formula, or maybe you want a money-back guarantee on your life, I donât know. Sorry, life isnât fair, you donât get a rehearsal, some shots you only get to take once.
Have you ever been sailing? To maneuver a boat against the wind using only the wind as your power source and having dolphins accompany you?
or go scuba diving and discovering another world filled with with an incredible assortment of living creatures that all help our existence.
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And you want to be dead. Why? Donât you think that is a sign of depression or another possible illness?
I donât believe it is dodging or a non-answer. It seems to me you need more help than outpatient therapy can give you and you insinuated that Iâm not the first one to think of this. The problem is, unless you cause yourself or someone else harm, they canât place you on a 72 hour hold.
Iâm not so sure you are lucid.
It maybe you have been ill for that many years and no one has found the right meds and treatment to help you.
No one is dodging the question. If one canât find life worth living, then either the person is dying of something like cancer or they have a mental illness. If itâs something like cancer then by all means find a Dr. Kevorkian, if that makes you happy. Otherwise, please find a good psychiatrist and enjoy nature.
Oh and one last thing⌠No one on this forum is your psychiatrist or your psychologist. IMHO, no one should be engaging with you on this forum because we arenât your therapists.
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Moreover, it is illegal to practice medicine without license.
(3) Except as provided in subsection (1) of this section, it shall constitute a felony for any person to practice medicine in this state without a license and upon conviction thereof shall be imprisoned in the state prison for a period not to exceed five (5) years, or shall be fined no more than ten thousand dollars ($ âŚ
Do you want to be responsible for someone going to prison? Go see a licensed professional!
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Well no, you donât choose. Like I said, something either convinces you or it doesnât. Some people think they can get away with just being mean and sometimes life pans out to not prove them wrong.
Well you are assuming a conclusion, that life is worth continuing, but you havenât shown that.
Iâm guessing youâve never actually been sailing. Iâve done it once, I was put in a camp for it as a teen and taught how to, it was one of the worst times of my life.
Why would it be? Maybe some just donât think itâs worth it having to MAKE life bearable or enjoyable. And itâs an easy argument to make, you have to struggle a lot to make it come out even or good but do anything and it easily becomes intolerable.
Life does seem like a raw deal and it makes one wonder what people who think itâs worth it are smoking.
Dodge.
Iâve thought about and refined this for years and the opposing sideâs views donât make much sense when I break them down.
Or itâs not illness and no one has an answer for actual questions about the value of life. You keep wanting it to be illness because itâs easier to handle, donât have to think about it.
They are dodging the question. Your answer shows a shockingly limited perspective on the issue and also part of the reason discussions on the topic of death and dying donât amount to much. People are too scared of those who arenât âsickâ and wish to die, because that would force them to question life and the supposed value of it.
Again, dodging.