The point of life/living

[inthedarkness]

@lausten

They aren’t there on the surface. They require a couple of steps, as in, if I want to not be harmed by people around me, then I shouldn’t harm people around me. If I don’t want some random person I’ve never met to harm me, I need to get more people to understand this idea of mutual non-harm.

That’s easy, I understand that much. Selfishness might get you what you want in the short term but it depends on everyone else not being selfish, because if everyone else was then you wouldn’t be able to take more than you need. You’d likely be too busy defending what you have. The same with might makes right, it’s only good as long as you’re strong or on your guard and neither one lasts forever.

So for the most amount of peace and freedom everyone has to agree to NOT do some things and that frees up worry about them happening. This isn’t a guarantee but it does drastically improve the odds. It’s why you can sleep at night in a comfy bed and not taking watches.

Some might say it makes humans soft unlike in nature but they fail to see that evolution is due to necessity and they HAVE to be strong or else. I don’t think animals would like to be always fighting for scraps, that’s why you see bears and birds returning to plentiful food areas humans have. There isn’t really a high ground to be strong and independent like in nature, because that’s by necessity not choice. Given the option I’d wager animals, if capable of human levels of reasoning, would do the easier way. Heck adaptations are about making their lives easier.

So even by pure selfishness standards it is beneficial to be selfless.

@lausten

You came here a year ago with questions about a website called “Pathway to Happiness”, so I can safely assume that’s what you want.

Well no, that site I came across because I googled “does the truth hurt” and his website was the first ping.

I…am not really sure I want to be happy. It’s certainly something people say I should want. Even the concept of doing WHAT I want still feels alien since my life was mostly just a series of “have to’s”.

Though my real issue is still getting over the stuff I read on Gary’s website.

[lausten]

@inthedarkness

Even the concept of doing WHAT I want still feels alien since my life was mostly just a series of “have to’s”.

Welcome to adulthood.

[inthedarkness]

@lausten

Welcome to adulthood.

Well no, this isn’t even adulthood. I DON’T know what I want. Most adults I talk to generally do know but life gets in the way. Me…I’ve just because doing “supposed to” my whole life I don’t know what it is to really want something.

Even as a kid I was like that. What I like and want didn’t matter, it had to be practical and efficient and “mature”. The result? A stunted adult who wouldn’t know what to do with the lottery if they won the next day.

[lausten]

@inthedarkness

Most adults I talk to generally do know but life gets in the way.

What’s the difference between “life gets in the way” and “have to”?

[inthedarkness]

@lausten

What’s the difference between “life gets in the way” and “have to”?

Because those are generally obligations you have to do like work, family, food, etc. But they have something they want to do or dreams they desire or things they enjoy.

In my life it was more like “do this, then this, and get this result”, sort of like a check list. That’s why I went to college, not because I wanted to or because I wished to, it was just what you’re supposed to do. Same reason I got into a relationship, or looked into IT, or read up on Buddhism, etc. It all seemed like the “Correct” choice to make to be right and true.

But when I look inside about what I want and what I wish, it’s just empty. There is nothing there. I feel like I wasted my life just going along with things and expecting everything to work out. But when I tried to figure out what I liked or enjoyed nothing stuck with me. No real passion, hobbies, most of what I did was just for the approval or adoration of others, not for my sake.

So here I am, wondering what it’s like to have that passion and to do for yourself and what you want. I see other people do it, while I’m more like some AI program pretending to be human.

[lausten]

@inthedarkness

It all seemed like the “Correct” choice to make to be right and true.

Not sure what you think most people do. Do you think they choose the wrong or false thing?

@inthedarkness

There is nothing there. I feel like I wasted my life just going along with things and expecting everything to work out

Again, extremely common

@inthedarkness

not for my sake

But you have a sense of what “for your sake”. This seems disingenuous, saying you don’t know what you want, but you know that you aren’t getting what you want.

[inthedarkness]

@lausten

Not sure what you think most people do. Do you think they choose the wrong or false thing?

Most people I know have things they want to do or dream of and it shows in them. Me I just do it because people say I should. It’s like a robot, no real input and just inevitably doing so.

@lausten

But you have a sense of what “for your sake”. This seems disingenuous, saying you don’t know what you want, but you know that you aren’t getting what you want.

I know what is meant by that because I see it in other people but not myself. I don’t have any real drive for anything, no passion or interests, it’s been like that since childhood. It frustrated my mom because she didn’t know what to do since I had no real interest in anything but video games.

I don’t know what I want. What I believe is based on what other people say is right and not really what I think is right, I don’t really have opinions on many things. I just say what I think people will like or approve of.

I guess the laymen term for it would be like having a “soul” (not literally, figuratively). I see everyone around me have genuine interest in passion, while I’m just doing things because other people like them.

[lausten]

@inthedarkness

. I don’t have any real drive for anything

Well that sucks. I’m not going to diagnose you, and all the suggestions given are standard responses to what you report. None of this changes the logic of seeking meaning, understanding human behavior, finding happiness, or most anything else we’ve discussed. Joseph Campbell used to say “follow your bliss”, but if don’t have one then that wouldn’t make any sense.

[inthedarkness]

@lausten

None of this changes the logic of seeking meaning, understanding human behavior, finding happiness, or most anything else we’ve discussed.

Well sorta, since the problem has been the stuff I read on Pathwaytohappiness, especially the one about things don’t make you feel.

It’s like I said on that thread, if things don’t make me feel then what’s the point in doing anything? What reason is there to do something if it doesn’t make you happy?

[citizenschallengev4]

@inthedarkness

What does that even mean to “know one’s self”?

To deep down appreciate that you are an evolved biological being, the result of some half a billion unbroken years of continuity of one iteration after another, until you came along.

Or if you want to be poetic, to deeply appreciate that you are a filament in Earth’s pageant of evolution, and the fun feeling of knowing one has connections that span the eons. And that life on Earth will continue, no matter how much humans destroy what we inherited. She has time on her side. What awaits me in a few days, or years, is an endless sleep, no worries about all the horrors people have created for themselves.

Read up on Earth’s evolution, and Solms and Sapolski, Damasio and others. To know oneself is to inhabit that science based evolutionary understanding.
It really is that simple, though it takes a bit of homework.

The difference between a postcard and Being There.

All that achieves a feeling of arriving, satisfaction of my life long curiosity and great mysteries being resolved, not to mention all I could never have imagined back at Bell Avenue.

I know where I came from and where I’m going, and I found reason for ‘being here’ in the times and people I was a part of and all the wonderful discoveries I’ve experienced and learned from. Death, heaven, hell, god, devil, guilt, the hating one self … all that sturm und drang is resolved. Heck, I even have Christ’s Passion nailed on an intellectual and spiritual/emotional level.

I sleep well and constructively interact with others in my life.

It leads to an inner security along with a better appreciation of all those layers and aspects I am made up of. The stuff you think is meaningless, but that still does matter to who we are - and the better we comprehend the swirls of emotions and balls of confusion we create for ourselves the better we learn to side step and make lemonade out of lemons and all that.

That peace of mind thing that’s priceless.

[lausten]

@inthedarkness

Well sorta, since the problem has been the stuff I read on Pathwaytohappiness,

But now you’ve told us that you had this thing of not having a passion your entire life. Another one of your misrepresentations and misdirections.

You were experiencing this first, then you worked on this logic. There are reasons for your experience but it’s not because of Gary or the origin of the universe.

[inthedarkness]

@citizenschallengev4

To deep down appreciate that you are an evolved biological being, the result of some half a billion unbroken years of continuity of one iteration after another, until you came along.

Somehow I feel that’s wrong based what I’ve seen from everyone who’s not you.

@citizenschallengev4

Or if you want to be poetic, to deeply appreciate that you are a filament in Earth’s pageant of evolution, and the fun feeling of knowing one has connections that span the eons. And that life on Earth will continue, no matter how much humans destroy what we inherited. She has time on her side. What awaits me in a few days, or years, is an endless sleep, no worries about all the horrors people have created for themselves.

Also not true. Also there is no guarantee life on Earth will go on, it will eventually end at some point and so will the Earth. So you’re already believing a lie.

The horrors aren’t what people have made for themselves but what it means to live. I’ve seen clips of nature, it’s brutal and savage outside out little bubbles we’ve made.

@citizenschallengev4

All that achieves a feeling of arriving, satisfaction of my life long curiosity and great mysteries being resolved, not to mention all I could never have imagined back at Bell Avenue.

No it doesn’t. You’re inventing a fantasy that isn’t rooted in reality.

@citizenschallengev4

I know where I came from and where I’m going, and I found reason for ‘being here’ in the times and people I was a part of and all the wonderful discoveries I’ve experienced and learned from. Death, heaven, hell, god, devil, guilt, the hating one self … all that sturm und drang is resolved. Heck, I even have Christ’s Passion nailed on an intellectual and spiritual/emotional level.

Based on the holes in your logic I’ve seen so far and not being able to answer the questions I’ve asked I’m guessing you just aren’t aware of it, which…ignorance is bliss I guess.

@citizenschallengev4

It leads to an inner security along with a better appreciation of all those layers and aspects I am made up of. The stuff you think is meaningless, but that still does matter to who we are - and the better we comprehend the swirls of emotions and balls of confusion we create for ourselves the better we learn to side step and make lemonade out of lemons and all that.

Again, it does not. You’ve invented an myth that isn’t supported by facts. Evolution is indifferent, it just happens with no thought into it. Life persists because that’s what it does. That’s all there is too it.

You really don’t get it.

@citizenschallengev4

That peace of mind thing that’s priceless.

Living in a bubble will do that to people. Just like the MAGA folks and the people at pathwaytohappiness.

@lausten

But now you’ve told us that you had this thing of not having a passion your entire life. Another one of your misrepresentations and misdirections.

It’s not. These are all problems that add up. You keep saying it’s a misdirection when it’s not. Gary’s stuff is one problem, but there are others too. All these issues affect me but not all of them are related.

@lausten

You were experiencing this first, then you worked on this logic. There are reasons for your experience but it’s not because of Gary or the origin of the universe.

It was never about the origin of the universe, I never really cared about that. But my current issues are because of what Gary said, and so far no one has been able to help. Not even the therapists because the don’t understand what I’m saying to them when I try and explain it.

[citizenschallengev4]

@inthedarkness

Somehow I feel that’s wrong based what I’ve seen from everyone who’s not you.

You should trying learning from real scientists* who have been doing the hard work. What I’m writing about is observation, more than conjectures.

It’s the philosophers with their need for fanciful other worldly provocative ideas and conclusions to sell copy and make careers who, thoughtlessly, think of consciousness as a thing, rather than an interaction between living biological beings.

Please, think about it - where is there any need for consciousness outside of the biological living realm?

Please someone answer that.

*For a partial bibliography, see bottom of page.

[lausten]

@inthedarkness

You keep saying it’s a misdirection when it’s not.

I don’t “keep saying it”. You’ve been here over a year and this is the first time I remember you saying anything about your mother being bothered about you not finding a hobby. If I say something about how you have talked about at the end all the questions “why” there is nothing, that there is no meaning, then you say, “no, I never really cared about that”. Well, then, why did you bring it up?

Therapists, or anyone, can’t help you with what Gary said because Gary is full of crap. Trying to debunk a charlatan is not going to help you sort out how you feel about life. If you want to get better at recognizing logical fallacies and see when someone is trapped in a delusion, then work on that, but that’s not cognitive behavioral therapy, which is more likely what will help you. And don’t tell me you tried it and it didn’t work, because that’s my point, that whatever we say, you say it doesn’t work. My guess is, and it’s only a guess since I don’t know who you really are, because you don’t tell us, the thing you need to work on first is addressing how you approach and interact with the people you ask to help you.

[lausten]

@citizenschallengev4

where is there any need for consciousness outside of the biological living realm?

That’s an impressive collection. I’m not understanding the question though. Consciousness arose in biology. Why are you asking this?

[write4u]

@citizenschallengev4

where is there any need for consciousness outside of the biological living realm?

@inthedarkness

Somehow I feel that’s wrong based what I’ve seen from everyone who’s not you.

I wholeheartedly support CC position on the evolution of life on Earth, with a minor caveat about the evolution of the human brain.

[inthedarkness]

@citizenschallengev4

You should trying learning from real scientists* who have been doing the hard work. What I’m writing about is observation, more than conjectures.

Scientists aren’t philosophers. They can’t answer the question of knowing one’s self.

@citizenschallengev4

It’s the philosophers with their need for fanciful other worldly provocative ideas and conclusions to sell copy and make careers who, thoughtlessly, think of consciousness as a thing, rather than an interaction between living biological beings.

Considering that a good deal of science is about defining terms so they can know what to study and look for, and the fact that science is rooted in philosophy (that’s where it started) this comes off as highly ironic.

@citizenschallengev4

Please, think about it - where is there any need for consciousness outside of the biological living realm?

That’s not really the question. I mean even today science has a hard time defining consciousness and what is or is not that. More than that science still doesn’t have an answer to the hard problem of solipsism.

Like I said, you just invented a fantasy that the facts don’t support.

@lausten

I don’t “keep saying it”. You’ve been here over a year and this is the first time I remember you saying anything about your mother being bothered about you not finding a hobby. If I say something about how you have talked about at the end all the questions “why” there is nothing, that there is no meaning, then you say, “no, I never really cared about that”. Well, then, why did you bring it up?

You’re talking about the origin of the universe which I never said I cared about. I’m talking about motivation for doing things when saying why, it has never been more than that.

Also I’ve mentioned it before, people just don’t pay attention.

@lausten

Therapists, or anyone, can’t help you with what Gary said because Gary is full of crap. Trying to debunk a charlatan is not going to help you sort out how you feel about life.

It helps to explain why that is, especially since other people on his page seem to believe him.

@lausten

If you want to get better at recognizing logical fallacies and see when someone is trapped in a delusion, then work on that, but that’s not cognitive behavioral therapy, which is more likely what will help you.

It hasn’t so far because the problem is the things I read and reasoning that out.

@lausten

My guess is, and it’s only a guess since I don’t know who you really are, because you don’t tell us, the thing you need to work on first is addressing how you approach and interact with the people you ask to help you.

I literally tell them everything and hide nothing from the therapist but unfortunately when it comes to explaining this they miss the mark in understanding what I mean. I’ve spent sessions trying to get at what is going on and they don’t seem to get it, eventually I just concede on a point and we move on but the problem isn’t resolved.

[lausten]

@inthedarkness

Also I’ve mentioned it before, people just don’t pay attention.

You aren’t as clear as you think you are, and you change positions.

@inthedarkness

since other people on his page seem to believe him

Have you looked at the internet? People believe all sorts of wacky things

@inthedarkness

the problem is the things I read and reasoning that out.

You’ve demonstrated poor reasoning skills at times, and you’ve shown that you get obsessed with things that don’t matter.

@inthedarkness

I literally tell them everything and hide nothing from the therapist but unfortunately when it comes to explaining this they miss the mark

There is no possible way I can evaluate your sessions.

[inthedarkness]

@lausten

You aren’t as clear as you think you are, and you change positions.

I don’t, you’re just putting words I didn’t say. Like the origin of the universe stuff. I also know I’ve mentioned that “not having any drive” growing up.

@lausten

Have you looked at the internet? People believe all sorts of wacky things

Yeah but people have to show it’s wacky, not just claim it is so. That’s my issue with his stuff. You say he’s full of crap but HOW?

@lausten

You’ve demonstrated poor reasoning skills at times, and you’ve shown that you get obsessed with things that don’t matter.

That’s why I ask other people, otherwise I end up trapped in a loop of bad logic. But I can’t really change the way I think since I’m on the spectrum which means I know it will happen again and I can’t stop it.

[lausten]

@inthedarkness

But I can’t really change the way I think

Everyone does. Everyone can examine their thoughts. Pretty sure that’s possible for someone like you.

@inthedarkness

You say he’s full of crap but HOW?

I spent quite a few posts on that a while back. Basically, you can’t select your feelings as if they are stored in a file drawer. Our instincts and history come into play with every bit of input the world throws at us. Learning how to choose from emotions that pop up is a lifelong challenge, not something you can switch on and off.