You kind of missed my point. I have agreed a couple of times that programs fail people. You don’t need to keep acting like I don’t know that. I’m not arguing that there are problems with support for people in need. I’m talking about you. That’s the difference. The unemployment rate is around 4%. People in poverty is about 11%. The suicide rate is 4 in 100,000. Those are all bad things, and I wish we did better to take care of all those people.
What you are missing is, if we, as in “the government”, “society”, “human beings”, “neighbors”, did nothing, all those numbers would be higher. There are millions of people who have turned their lives around, got jobs, worked their way out of poverty, and simply lived because of help from others. I’m not arguing that everything possible is being done or that agencies are highly effective and help everyone. People fall through cracks in the system. I’ve seen those cracks. So much of what you say is true. HOWEVER, you are claiming that nothing can be done for you, that those systems fail often. That is easily shown to be false. You are arguing against helping yourself.
The logic works something like this; If the systems are failing you, but at least some of the time the systems succeed, what is different with your situation? The one person in the world who is your best advocate is you. The one person that knows you better than anyone else is you. You probably can’t do this on your own. That person who isn’t answering your text probably can’t do it all for you. We need each other. I’ll let you figure out the next step.
But again, that still doesn’t mean it’s like that for everyone. That’s what I mean by you got lucky.
I promise there isn’t. Every interaction has been me having to effectively be someone else.
In my 33 years of trying that has never happened.
The problem is there are scores more who didn’t make it. The system does fail often when you consider those stats don’t represent all the people who sought the help. They also include the people who can take care of themselves.
I’m not, I’ve literally done everything asked of me and nothing. So far it’s been empty promises and no return contact. I can just point to my experience with Colorado unemployment and their inability to answer questions or help (that’s even if I get through to the call).
even a broken clock is right twice a day. The fact is the systems fail tons of people, myself included. They either don’t have the funding or staff to handle everything, or maybe they’re just bad in other ways.
The therapist I was given didn’t really understand what I was saying and kept trying to push worksheets and exercises I told her didn’t work. I can’t see any other therapist either because a lot of them don’t take medicaid due to the rules of it.
You and I both know this isn’t true of anyone. The person who knows you best is DEFINTELY NOT you. How many people constantly overestimate and misjudge themselves? We have a whole list of cognitive biases to say otherwise.
Then I’m doomed because I literally have nothing else. I’ve exhausted everything given to me and nothing to show for it. Heck that A+ IT certification was useless because there are no entry level jobs in my state. The only one within driving distance hasn’t answered anything I sent them even though the position is still open since I applied months ago.
Sometimes your best isn’t good enough and there’s nothing else you can do. Life isn’t a fairy tale where if the hero works they succeed. History is littered with the broken bodies of those just like you who worked just as hard for nothing.
That’s a general statement. I’m not weighing people. I don’t know what it means. We’ve agreed that the system fails a bunch of people; they actually exist and help some people too. Nothing is added to this conversation by you constantly repeating this.
You are confusing what I said about how we all need each other, with the fact that we are individuals. You’re right, other people can see things about us that we don’t see. It’s also true that we have things in our heads and in our private lives that no one else sees. I’m not going to argue anymore on these judgments like who knows you best. It’s not the point.
It’s a little too convenient that “not answering your calls” is the common excuse. I’m having trouble believing all your excuses. You know I’m not your landlord or father, right? It’s up to you to take care of yourself. I can’t do anything with your reasons.
It’s also full of martyrs and people who want others to think they are victims.
I started on Episode 48 of the “Meaning Crisis” and it had a quote from Miester Eckhart, “live without why”. @inthedarkness doesn’t seem to read other threads, and this led to some other interesting articles, so I’m bringing them all here. One of the interesting points I found was a reason to live is
Our lives are not only our own. They also belong to those who surround us. We should take care of ourselves because we are important to others—even though we sometimes forget it.
I learn through conversations. Some people think it looks like arguing, that’s their problem. So Mr. Darkness has helped me learn why to live by arguing against it. Googling the Eckhart quote, I haven’t found anything on Eckhart yet, but here are the articles I did find;
This one sums up both the “Meaning Crisis” series, and this thread quite well. It’s a short read.
but human survival relies very much on learning and planning. You can’t learn without living in the past, and you can’t plan without living in the future. Regret, for example, which makes many of us miserable by reflecting on the past, is an indispensable mental mechanism for learning from one’s own mistakes to avoid repeating them. Fears about the future are likewise essential to motivate us to do something that is somewhat unpleasant today but has an enormous benefit for our well-being in the future.
So we have regret and fear to help us learn to be in the moment. Messed up, but that’s how it works. That’s the answer to why is there suffering. He goes on to talk about time, and we can change our perception of that regret and misery and get more of the good stuff in the present. It’s most of the article, here’s a thought,
…this is not an illusion but a reality. If “me” is the sum of my memories, desires, thoughts, and feelings, then clearly me today is a very different person from me 20 years ago, and who knows who this person might be twenty years from now.
This is the correct way to look at how we are the sum of the human experience, not that “we don’t choose our emotions” crap that the darkman started out with months ago.
The other article actually has a list of why to live. Which is nice. It’s from a book and the book is now a dramatized Netflix series. The article talks about the controversy of the suicide scene in the series. I’M NOT RECOMMENDING THE SERIES, I HAVE NOT SEEN IT.
I listed reason #4 above. I already know more or less the response I get from any of this, but, read that reason again and you’ll see why I’m doing this. Here are reasons 6 through 8:
We are the designers of our life. It is our challenge to find beauty, even—and especially—when the opposite occurs. Finding beauty in the world is possible and brings countless rewards.
We all live through experiences that leave scars. However, there is always someone to give us a hand during those difficult times. The important thing is to accept that help.
Making an effort to deal with problems can make us aware of how strong we really are. Life’s challenges don’t exist only to upset us—they exist so that we understand ourselves better and get to know who we really are.
If you impose “but life has no meaning” on top of this, they are negated. Eckhart says, don’t do that. Lots of philosophers, pseudo-scientific religions, gurus, happy people from Louisiana, me, also agree with this. I think biology and neuroscience agree with it too. As the first article said, learn to live in the moment, and that “ultimate meaning” and need for a resolution to the narrative of the universe are less imposing on your momentary happiness. You can’t get rid of those thoughts of past and future, but you can expand your awareness of a warm evening, a soft cushion, or a good French fry, and make that fleeting millisecond of the present seem larger.
Well considering they’re contracted by the government and work in a building where they have to let you in I can’t just drop by out of nowhere.
I’ve e-mailed, called, even contacted the guy who knows the recruiter (who my dad is friends with), there is literally nothing else I can do and it’s the only entry level position even remotely close. Not even the places that are 1hr or 30 min away have any. My cert was a waste of time.
You want to write them off as excuses when this is the reality people deal with today, EVERY day.
He’s wrong about that, our lives are our own. Living just because others might be sad if you died isn’t a reason to go on, not to mention it’s a hollow existence. I know because that’s what I’ve been doing.
Articles like that are often short sighted and privileged. It reminds me of the people on the pathwaytohappiness website who advocate for following your bliss because it worked for them when in reality they just got lucky.
The same goes for living in the moment, it’s only good advice for those who don’t need it. The ones who struggle like I do it does nothing for. He mentions non-human animals ignorant of what their existence is like. If pay attention they are always on edge, always on the lookout for potential threats in their lives.
It’s incorrect, who we are today isn’t always different from 20 years ago. And no we DON’T choose our emotions, you should know that. We don’t choose our beliefs, something either convinces us or it doesn’t. As for “who knows who this person would be 20 years from now”, that’s equally stupid. What makes you think anything will change then? What even makes you think you’ll survive that long? Neuroscience shows us that we ARE our pasts, there aren’t multiple selves. It’s hard to believe the guy is a Ph.D with stuff like that.
My PRESENT is the problem, the past was better for me so living in the now doesn’t solve anything. I don’t have anything or the ability to do much. I have less today than I did then and in life that often means the future doesn’t bode well.
You pick the most out of touch articles to make your point.
It doesn’t negate it, life having no meaning renders that list null and void. I already explained why.
But that list is also wrong, no surprise.
6 is wrong because we aren’t the designers of our lives, you should know that since you don’t believe in free will. We don’t choose where we are born, what we learn, what we are convinced by or what we like. In fact if you’re born in poverty you’re statistically likely to stay there. It’s not our challenge to find beauty, there is nothing saying that.
7 is flatly wrong, there is not always someone to give a helping hand and that’s reflected in the suicide rates and loneliness epidemic plaguing the country.
8 has to be delusional. Often it shows how weak we are considering how many people are barely squeaking by and are one emergency away from financial ruin (like me). They are fragile, not strong, because they live precariously. The problems don’t exist to understand yourself better, you either win or get buried. It’s like I told you, we aren’t the heroes of the story and just because you work doesn’t mean you win. Life isn’t catered to our notions of meaning.
9 is wrong, to live isn’t to discover something about yourself (which is in direct contradiction to point 6 about being designers). To live is to struggle to persist and existence you didn’t ask for.
Not even going to swing at 10, discovering love in your eyes? Are they high? How sheltered is their life?
11 is just privileged if you have the freedom to fall in love and ability to do so.
13 is irrelevant, it doesn’t matter if death is waiting for each of us that bears no impact on doing it before hand.
Like…that article hurt your point, not helped it. That’s the sorta delusional takes I’d hear from someone who hasn’t known struggle and has been lucky to make it.
Quite the opposite, biology and neuroscience support the “no meaning” and that we are wired to be unhappy because unhappy and unsatisfied organisms survive.
Been there, done that, it doesn’t work. I really think this is the advice for people who already have it good and don’t have much to worry about. It’s delusional in the same sense most “living in the moment” advice is. It comes from privileged people and isn’t a reflection of life itself. I already explained why that’s not true using the animals he referenced and I can draw that to today as well.
For most people living in the moment is just skating by and having to watch everything. They can’t dream of the future because it doesn’t exist for them. There really isn’t time to relax because anything could upset the balance.
Your articles, unknowingly, made my point. That people who argue for things like this are out of touch with reality and what life is actually like and can’t see past their privileged positions, and neither can you it seems. They got lucky and think that means they know a thing or two about life but when they open their mouths it reveals how stupid they are.
Like…I still find it hard to believe they’re both Ph.Ds but I guess in psychology that doesn’t go very far or mean too much.
Philosophers are often in the privileged class I mentioned, you’d have to be born pretty lucky to have time to think about life. Though they are often seen as out of touch for a reason. The pseudoscience religions is a mark against not for you. It doesn’t matter if you agree with it if the statement is wrong. That’s like agreeing with flat earth.
Like…it wasn’t hard to poke holes in the articles you showed and that’s because this line of thinking is often delusional, born of luck and privilege. Especially that 13 reasons for living, most of them were nonsense and the rest were easy to disprove. It reads like someone living in a bubble their whole lives.
Like I told you, I’ve tried everything given to me to change my life and it never worked out. We aren’t heroes of a story, stop pretending otherwise. (I’d also need to be able to reply sooner than 12 hrs to keep up with folks on here).
I had a similar experience. I fit the requirements perfectly but I had to file in their system. No response, and I knew someone. My guess was, they had hand picked someone, but legally they had to advertise. But,come on, IT, there are jobs. At entry level, you have to suck up, a lot. You have to be friendly, contrite, and agreeable. They have no idea how good you are if you have no references, so they want someone nice. You are not nice.
A 4% unemployment rate means EVERY DAY people go to work. That everyday there are also people in that 4% does prove anything. Very few people are terminally unemployed. One of positive traits is that you are persistent. Leverage that.
Not suggesting you be a hero. As the inventor of hyperdrive said, “I stopped trying to be a great man, and just tried to be a man.”
There aren’t, I’ve checked the boards. No one is hiring for entry level except them, everything else is a senior position.
I am nice, you can ask every workplace I’ve ever been. I don’t rock the boat or anything like that.
Persistence doesn’t mean anything without results. Like that saying goes “effort means nothing without results”. It doesn’t matter how long you keep at something if nothing comes of it.
Well that hero is what you’re going for with those articles, that make us out to be heroes of our stories when really they just got lucky and think that means they know about life.
It seems to me you’re making a lot of excuses and protesting everything that is suggested to you. Why I have no clue except you may have depression or something so bad you have no motivation. I don’t know. That said though, maybe you need a job to get a job or just take a job you might not like but can still do until you do find something.
I worked a weekly midnight shift when I was 16. I cleaned toilets in my first jobs, while going to school. I did retail right after getting my college degree. But, yeah, I got lucky.
Because I’ve done it all before with no results. No motivation comes from seeing everything you’ve done doesn’t work out.
And what do you think I’ve been doing? I’ve done nothing but look for anything else I can do and the results are the same. Turned down from every job in my area, even fast food. I swear you guys are out of touch.
Yeah that was then not now, times change and jobs aren’t what they used to be and neither is the process. And way to prove my point, it was luck.
not really no, that has no outcome on whether you get hired or not.
It’s called sarcasm bro. You aren’t even 30 are you?
Man, that was awesome back in the eighties when jobs were everywhere and you could come in late, call the boss a jerk, drink your lunch, and get raises every quarter.
Just before Obama was elected, I was working as a cashier at a beauty place, but I also campaigned for Obama both times that he ran and while he was president, lo and behold, things improved as it often does when a Dem is in office. I had a better a job for a while. I’m not telling you to vote Dem, but I am saying I had a job and did other things. I wasn’t the happiest person, not working in the field I was educated for, but I did take a lame part time minimum wage job for a while. I’ve also been a cashier or waitress at other places. Minimum wage jobs suck, especially when you have a college education, but I’ve done it. It’s far less depressing than being completely unemployed. If you have to, go to a place that helps people find jobs. You could learn how to put the right key words in on the modern day online applications to get your foot into the door.
Oh, oh, and remember when minimum wage $3.25? Okay, some of you are to young. Then it UP to $7.50 and it stayed there, while prices went up, that was so great, so great. Those were good times. Kids today, and there $15 starting pay, that must be terrible.
33 and even if it was sarcasm you still proved me right, you got lucky to be born in a good time.
Actually it was easier back then to land a job and you made enough to be able to support yourself unlike today.
You don’t know much about economics do you? Things were different then than now, especially since it’s even hard now to land a job thanks to modern technology, most companies don’t even use people but AI now.
Again you’re just out of touch.
15 starting isn’t enough to support yourself so no.
False. It reinforces the dread most people feel at the jobs they hate that this is what life is going to be like. I’ve worked at places at wal mart before and you’ve never known or seen the despair in people’s eyes when they know this is life. No one likes working there and they all talk about how they hate it, but there is nowhere else to go in a small town.
The places that help people find jobs don’t actually do that. They just point you to their job board and tell you to apply, that’s what the one in my state did. Everything else requires you to have a family to qualify.
Keywords don’t matter anymore either, it’s about who you know. That’s even more true now with AI running the show.
This maybe true, but don’t romanticize it too much.
Most reasonable people think of hating the minimum wage job is an incentive to find a better job or join a union.
Ask for a job counselor. That’s what their job is- to help you find a job and not just point you to the job board. You’re not trying if you don’t ask for a job counselor.
You have to find a way to make your resume stand out after you upload it for the potential employer. I’m not out of touch. You truly need to go to job seekers classes and ask for a job counselor.
Exactly what years were the good ones? When cancer was a death sentence? When lead in the air was destroying our brain cells? When people were dying Vietnam? Cholera? LA riots? Reagan?
No one is supporting themselves now? I need to watch the news more.
I get the sense you sit on the internet all day and make up fantasies
That’s what I was told when I was 16. And it’s partially true. Remember what I said about being nice? Stop believing you have special knowledge and that no one can tell you anything. You aren’t that special.