What’s your take on a basic income]?
Unrealistic in every way.
I think the Partial Basic Income sounds like a swell idea. People who already have a comfortable income from other sources don’t need it.
I know the argument – “society doesn’t owe anyone a living”. But I think it does. When we were living off the land, farming and hunter-gathering, that might have been true. But today society is too specialized. You need skills to get a job, and some people, try as they might, simply can’t acquire the needed skills. And we’ve seen it time and time again – if people can’t find jobs, they will become criminals, burglars, drug dealers. Isn’t that a drain on society? So I think that society Does owe everyone a living.
I think the Partial Basic Income sounds like a swell idea. People who already have a comfortable income from other sources don't need it. I know the argument -- "society doesn't owe anyone a living". But I think it does. When we were living off the land, farming and hunter-gathering, that might have been true. But today society is too specialized. You need skills to get a job, and some people, try as they might, simply can't acquire the needed skills. And we've seen it time and time again -- if people can't find jobs, they will become criminals, burglars, drug dealers. Isn't that a drain on society? So I think that society Does owe everyone a living.Where's the money going to come from? Not to mention handing out money creates a society of dysfunctional babies.
I think the Partial Basic Income sounds like a swell idea. People who already have a comfortable income from other sources don't need it. I know the argument -- "society doesn't owe anyone a living". But I think it does. When we were living off the land, farming and hunter-gathering, that might have been true. But today society is too specialized. You need skills to get a job, and some people, try as they might, simply can't acquire the needed skills. And we've seen it time and time again -- if people can't find jobs, they will become criminals, burglars, drug dealers. Isn't that a drain on society? So I think that society Does owe everyone a living.Where's the money going to come from? Not to mention handing out money creates a society of dysfunctional babies. I tend to agree with you on this. In theory it sounds like it could do some good, but ultimately would end up being just another welfare system that gets exploited to all hell. Maybe it'd be better to have a system where the very basic of necessities are met. (i.e. Food/ Water)
I tend to agree with you on this. In theory it sounds like it could do some good, but ultimately would end up being just another welfare system that gets exploited to all hell. Maybe it'd be better to have a system where the very basic of necessities are met. (i.e. Food/ Water)The idea of a basic income is that everyone gets the same amount and people can do whatever they want with it, so technically it can't really be exploited. To support people with basic necessities it would be easier to just give them a (low) amount of money and they buy them themselves. That would mean much less overhead for the government.
I tend to agree with you on this. In theory it sounds like it could do some good, but ultimately would end up being just another welfare system that gets exploited to all hell. Maybe it'd be better to have a system where the very basic of necessities are met. (i.e. Food/ Water)The idea of a basic income is that everyone gets the same amount and people can do whatever they want with it, so technically it can't really be exploited. To support people with basic necessities it would be easier to just give them a (low) amount of money and they buy them themselves. That would mean much less overhead for the government. This is where I tend to lean more on th Liberal side. Most of your staunch conservatives i know would cry wealth redistribution on a topic like this without considering the bottom line costs/benifits of thing like this. I honeslty don't know enough about this to really have a set opinion yet, but it certainly does make for an interesting discussion.
Like Beltane asked above, where is the money going to come from?
There are not enough taxes being levied to go around for what we already have budgeted.
Avoiding VYAZMA and Beltane for the moment…
I went out to dinner with a doctor the other night, which was more than the usual idiotic conversation about either baseball or gluten. We got on to this idea that free health care is nice, it goes with the basic value of taking care of each other, but really, shouldn’t we have free food first? The idea that you have to market food like you market sun glasses or video games is really pretty insane when you think about it. Your market is limited by the number of calories a person can consume. To increase profits you encourage obesity and over population. That we have an economic system where this makes sense, makes no sense at all. And worse, we treat that people who do most of the work like crap. Farmers have to be multiply skilled, and we place all the risk on their shoulders for something that is often at the whims of nature.
I don’t even think you need to break capitalism to fix it. Just make the job of farming easier. Don’t tie a person to the land. Classify the land “farm”, just like we now do with “timber”. And give them a steady income, just like the guy who makes the same wage, if the restaurant is busy or not. Let some farm land go fallow, like humans have done since forever, and move the farmers to where production is best. And no one gets to profit off of this. Grocery stories are 501c3. Period.
But no, we got people who think this makes people lazy. Having someone control my food supply is supposed to motivate me?
Avoiding VYAZMA and Beltane for the moment.... I went out to dinner with a doctor the other night, which was more than the usual idiotic conversation about either baseball or gluten. We got on to this idea that free health care is nice, it goes with the basic value of taking care of each other, but really, shouldn't we have free food first? The idea that you have to market food like you market sun glasses or video games is really pretty insane when you think about it. Your market is limited by the number of calories a person can consume. To increase profits you encourage obesity and over population. That we have an economic system where this makes sense, makes no sense at all. And worse, we treat that people who do most of the work like crap. Farmers have to be multiply skilled, and we place all the risk on their shoulders for something that is often at the whims of nature. I don't even think you need to break capitalism to fix it. Just make the job of farming easier. Don't tie a person to the land. Classify the land "farm", just like we now do with "timber". And give them a steady income, just like the guy who makes the same wage, if the restaurant is busy or not. Let some farm land go fallow, like humans have done since forever, and move the farmers to where production is best. And no one gets to profit off of this. Grocery stories are 501c3. Period. But no, we got people who think this makes people lazy. Having someone control my food supply is supposed to motivate me?Free food. Another great impossible idea. I think the whole world should get together and have a big group hug, and everyone can tickle each other until we create utopia.
Nah, let’s do it your way and fight it out until only the stupid are left standing
Nah, let's do it your way and fight it out until only the stupid are left standingLel brah, that actually would turn out better......but who said anything about fighting, the point is nothing in life is ever free.
Nah, let's do it your way and fight it out until only the stupid are left standingLel brah, that actually would turn out better......but who said anything about fighting, the point is nothing in life is ever free. Say that to me while I'm hording samples at Costco! Muahahaha
Nah, let's do it your way and fight it out until only the stupid are left standingLel brah, that actually would turn out better......but who said anything about fighting, the point is nothing in life is ever free. Say that to me while I'm hording samples at Costco! MuahahahaWell, I know when I'm beat, lol.
Like Beltane asked above, where is the money going to come from? There are not enough taxes being levied to go around for what we already have budgeted.On the plus side, yes it would need more taxes, but there will be lots of savings too. Less crime, as crime is often related to poverty, less mental illnesses as they are often related to poverty, no unemployment benefits as that would be covered by the BI (basic income)...
This is where I tend to lean more on th Liberal side. Most of your staunch conservatives i know would cry wealth redistribution on a topic like this without considering the bottom line costs/benifits of thing like this. I honeslty don't know enough about this to really have a set opinion yet, but it certainly does make for an interesting discussion.The BI (basic income) would make people radically free, in a good way. People could take their lifes into their own hands, could make bolder desicions like starting a business without having to be afraid of what happens if they fail and many wouldn't be stuck working for bullies and idiots.
Nah, let's do it your way and fight it out until only the stupid are left standingLel brah, that actually would turn out better......but who said anything about fighting, the point is nothing in life is ever free. That's a truism that isn't really true. When did you start paying for your mother's milk? Did your contribution to the household match the value of the house? In an agrarian world it might have, but we don't live in an agrarian world. Our contributions are much more abstract, but we continue to act like pay actually equals the value of what we do. What's more true is the way we treat the poor actually shows where are values really are.
Where's the money going to come from?The same place it comes from to build prisons, I suppose. The prison system has become so bloated that corporations are getting into the act, running them for profit, all at the taxpayers expense.
Where's the money going to come from?The same place it comes from to build prisons, I suppose. You mean like the State Dept. of Corrections? or the Federal Bureau of Prisons? I really don't think that those institutions would ever be able to come up with enough money to provide all citizens with basic income. That's not realistic. How about everyone who wanted a "basic income" just applies for a job and gets it that way? See, that's most likely the zenith of organized society. Then things get done. Streets get cleaned. Things get invented. Products get made. Food is provided. Also there are plenty of jobs that require no skills or education. So using the excuse that "try as people might, some folks just aren't able to get skills" is just ridiculous.
You need skills to get a job, and some people, try as they might, simply can't acquire the needed skills. And we've seen it time and time again -- if people can't find jobs, they will become criminals, burglars, drug dealers. Isn't that a drain on society?Yeah, it was you who said that. Throughout the history of humankind people who are deemed a drain on society are dealt with. Prisons, rehab, hospitals, killing, banishment etc etc.. That's how it has always been. It's part of our social behavior. Hunter/gatherer tribes surely had very little room for people who couldn't contribute to the welfare of the tribe or group. We can observe this today in places around the globe. There's never been a place in tribes, groups or societies/villages/cities reserved for many loafers or malingerers. As the groups grow larger and more sophisticated the tiny fraction of loafers becomes more visible, but no less controversial as they have always been. We are still a group of social animals where everyone is expected to pull their own weight and contribute what they can to society. It's always been that way.