Stupidity, it's a technical term

[citizenschallengev4]

First part of this was write before you above comment, but I got pulled off before sending and it’s sat here:

@lausten

That formula is an explanation of what we know about the nervous system, not a deep understanding of how we became what we are.

Look at how much people are obsessed with understanding origins.

Thinking consciousness starts at the neural level is flat wrong. And I don’t think Sapolsky would disagree. Intellect and behavior, that where the neurons come into their full glory.

Remember my first goal is the understanding the “Self” - myself. To fully understand me, particularly my “animal instinct” (impulses, passions) requires going past neurons,.
Understanding self-reflecting consciousness - that is the experience of experiencing" also requires going beyond neurons to a deeper understanding of our bodies complexities and interconnections.

I’m not disputing anything Sapolsky says, neurons may be the pathways that our thinking intellect depends on - however there is much more, with the body’s ability to “experience the experience” than neurons.

There we get to the great Hard Problem, which is about the “experience of the experience” with the obvious observation that neurons alone aren’t enough to feel like a thing.

That was written weeks ago and has been sitting here - doesn’t seem much point, but here it is.
…

@lausten

For once, answer this, where the heck did you get that I want status quo?

From listening at the local college philosophy club, and articles and YouTube feeds. From the fact that the philosophizers that I’ve explored, professionals and non-, our biology reality is something they refuse to engage in.

It’s one thing for my writing style to rub the wrong way, but it’s whole different story

=======================================

@lausten

makes clear that there isn’t something that powerful people are able to do now that they weren’t able to do then,

Of course, it’s the same old same old. And apparently people have been intellectually lazy and uninterested, by and large.

@lausten

Rather, this is us, it’s how our minds work.

Which is why we are watching our over crowded humanity in the process of our self-cannibalization, and we’ll be taking most of the Animal kingdom with us. Oh, but what a ride it has been.

Which bring us to this philosophical breakthrough:

Deteriorata - Fluke of the Universe

[lausten]

@citizenschallengev4

From listening at the local college philosophy club, and articles and YouTube feeds. From the fact that the philosophizers that I’ve explored, professionals and non-, our biology reality is something they refuse to engage in.

So, are you not talking about me in particular? Because I asked how you got something about me and you answered, from YouTubers and a club I’m not a member of. I have felt that you put me in a box with others, so that makes sense.

[citizenschallengev4]

@lausten

So, are you not talking about me in particular? Because I asked how you got something about me and you answered, from YouTubers and a club I’m not a member of.

I have felt that you put me in a box with others, so that makes sense.

Sorry I misread that, and read it as - where did I get my opinion on what the status quo is, from.

As for how I “get things about you”? From the words you write to me and the impression they imprint upon me.

In a way, it’s true I do. Heck I can’t even get you to acknowledge the self-absorbed, self-serving nature of humanity. When you mention Evolution it never becomes more than a vague notion, then you tell me dwelling on it is bs, and more or less irrelevant, because we already know evolution happens. As if that’s all I’m talking about.

No I can’t fish up a quote - but that is the distinct message I’ve received from you, for a long time now.

Instead, . . .

But again, it’s what your words leave me with.

[citizenschallengev4]

Even now, for all points in my previous comment (#41), that was all you could focus on.

[lausten]

@citizenschallengev4

then you tell me dwelling on it is bs, and more or less irrelevant

I never said anything close to that. You are imagining that you are being harmed. I am losing all interest in trying to sort out your misunderstandings.

[citizenschallengev4]

@lausten

You are imagining that you are being harmed.

Oh please.

@lausten

I am losing all interest in trying to sort out your misunderstandings.

You’ve been saying that forever.

I’ve yet to see some actual interest in digging in and sorting it out. Instead I feel I’m constantly tossed into a battle. I appreciate my approach comes off as offense to some - that’s why I keep hoping for some serious on-point feedback. So, I appreciate I need to be able to eat some shit myself, which I feel I’ve done plenty of, considering your consistent derision rather than solid constructive critique.

What I see, feel is, you hammering at me for not bowing down to the edifice of the traditional philosophy, and some of its superstars - stuff that to my mind, helped get us to this dead end alley that self-deluding humanity has driven down.

When you quote me it’s been cherry picking and usual quite beside the main point I’m trying to drive at. Instead it feels like gotchas. It’s like you strive to make construct response next to impossible. So it’s another dust up. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Really sad and not at all what I’m after.

[lausten]

@citizenschallengev4

that’s why I keep hoping for some serious on-point feedback.

I think you missed the part where I said your basic premises are fine, but there’s no substance.

@citizenschallengev4

for not bowing down to the edifice of the traditional philosophy

Never says that

@citizenschallengev4

beside the main point I’m trying to drive at.

That’s what I keep saying, you don’t drive toward anything, just repeat the intro

[citizenschallengev4]

@lausten

That’s what I keep saying, you don’t drive toward anything, just repeat the intro

I don’t drive towards anything?

Philosophy Embrace Evolutionary Biological Sciences.

Earth Centrism - A Student's Bibliographic Resource - (2/2)

Understanding Consciousness

[IMG_heart & mystic hand] David Chalmers leads philosophers who claim scientists, (who are dedicated to studying physical reality), will never figure out how biological processes can produce subjective experience. Then they talk about studying “consciousness” but focus on neurons and the brain. While the body gets lost like some kind of externality, an irrelevance to minimize and avoid. But, consider for a moment that the brain is intimately connected down to every cubic millimeter of your b…

more to come . . . since what I’m driving toward is helping more people become aware of this scientific understanding of our origin, to be proud and to be loud - why not explicitly loudly accept the hard reality that, we create our Gods from within ourselves. Keep showing for our local philosophers until I finally shame someone into coming out of hiding.

Doing philosophy today without incorporating modern biological reality is p¶¶ing in the wind. Look for the seeds of consciousness within our cells and mitochondria and the electrical symphony of impulses streaming through our body.

Not within our ever imaginative ego driven castles built of thoughts.

Body + Brain + Interaction (interior & exterior) = consciousness, thoughts, dreams, gods, (and the soul while the heart is beating).
also a heck of a lot easier to demonstrate than the existence of a personal God out there. More people ought to be aware and be proud, find the foundation of biology and evolution, to support our need for meaning and sense of belonging.

[lausten]

@citizenschallengev4

since what I’m driving toward is helping more people become aware of this scientific understanding of our origin

That would be fine, and sometimes you do. More often you say people don’t know something that is pretty commonly known. Sure, not everyone, not what’s the point in pointing to ignorance? Cursing the darkness when there are lights all around. As in,

@citizenschallengev4

Keep showing for our local philosophers until I finally shame someone into coming out of hiding.

I agree,

@citizenschallengev4

More people ought to be aware

That’s why I support CFI. But I don’t see how I help more people be aware by spending my energy saying that there are people who are unaware.

[citizenschallengev4]

@lausten

But I don’t see how I help more people be aware by spending my energy saying that there are people who are unaware.

Well it is what it is.
Look at where we and our society is at.
We are beyond saving, that’s why I’m more concerned about seriously understanding the self, cause on a personal level, it’s going to come in handy as our societal, global, slow motion catastrophe starts picking up steam.

[lausten]

@citizenschallengev4

Look at where we and our society is at.

I do that quite often if you haven’t noticed

@citizenschallengev4

cause on a personal level,

My point/question was why is it important to tell others that there are more others that are unaware. How is that on a personal level? Understanding the self, for yourself, that’s personal. Convincing me or anyone that too many people don’t understand the self or aren’t discussing it, that’s not on the personal level.

[citizenschallengev4]

@lausten

Understanding the self, for yourself, that’s personal.

Seriously.
Understanding the Self has been a major concern for people and humanity in general since before society existed - or is that claim not true?

Everybody knows about Descartes words. Why are you telling me to shut up - or that striving for a sober scientific fact based understanding of the self is irrelevant or something.

You wave the flag of Mythkeepers, great, we do live by myths.
But science is around for a good reason too - what’s the problem,

Sure, you can be upset with me for progressively losing my respect for mankind in general, so I’m an a hole, I don’t give a fart any more - I’m an Earth Centrist - and we are nothing but a terror for this planet.

What I do care about is helping inject some sober scientific reality in public discussion.

Nothing I want to discuss is any made up revelation on my part, the evidence is all out there, buried in data that fills libraries. I believe is it needs to be discussed more.

But you say shut up???
Why?

[citizenschallengev4]

@lausten

Convincing me or anyone that too many people don’t understand the self or aren’t discussing it, that’s not on the personal level.

Lots of discussions.
Lots of misunderstanding also.

Little desire to drill down to biological evolutionary reality.
Keeping it within the realm of me, me, me.

I’ve underlined specific flaws regarding most of these people that have made a cottage industry out of discuss “consciousness”.

Most of them don’t even take the time to point out that consciousness is on a continuum and what’s being studied in human brains, is but the extreme complexity end of this spectrum of consciousness.

And that consciousness itself has been evolving for over a billion years as bio-molecular complexity increased.

[lausten]

@citizenschallengev4

But you say shut up???

I don’t say that. I respond to specifics. I note when something you say is interesting to me, new to me, or offers valuable insights. I note when something you say could benefit from some rephrasing, my opinion, of course. Lately, I’ve been pointing out how often you repeat yourself. By “repeat”, I don’t mean that what you say is wrong, I mean it’s words you’ve used before, sometimes literally a cut and paste, words that I’ve asked about, asked for elaboration as to what it is you are getting at. Then, you take me asking for more words and say that I’m saying, “shut up.”

[citizenschallengev4]

@lausten

asked for elaboration as to what it is you are getting at.

That would be refreshing!

@lausten

Then, you take me asking for more words and say that I’m saying, “shut up.”

Some nuanced questions would be most welcome.

But that’s not what your words convey. Just have to look at your commentary and the type of questions you shoot at me over at “Understanding Consciousness take two”.

Ignoring my responses doesn’t help. Especially when I try correcting your misinterpretations.

[lausten]

Saw this and I thought it brought this conversation into the current time

Why Smart People Don't See What's Wrong With Trump

These are two Republicans who saw something was needed after Trump won his first term. They are “never Trumpers”. Starting at 10 minutes, they make a good stab at answer the question of why smart people still back Trump. It’s a dynamic of right-wing-media, the voters, and the people who want the power.

[lausten]

There are many angles to look at this. Schopenhauer talked of dialog vs debate.

Why Smart People Should Never Argue With Idiots – The Schopenhauer Strategy

I often ask people to engage in dialog, but they insist on acting like lawyers. Sometimes they act like a drunk at the bar, arguing just to win. Intelligence is not the issue, it’s the goal. Unfortunately this video concludes that sometimes you just have to wait until the time the idiots die. There is a little it about trying to reflect their words back to them until they feel heard, but there’s still no guarantee they will listen to you after you’ve done that.

The question then is, how do you want to spend your time? Fighting with people who have no intention of ever listening or building something that will last, something that will grow where there is fertile ground.

Still, I’m left worrying if we have that time. How many more have to die or suffer before relief comes? Can we let the long arc of justice play out in a world where we are capable of destroying our entire species along with many others?

[morgankane01]

The tiger, the donkey and the lion

A tiger and a donkey pass each other on a meadow.

The donkey says to the tiger:
– The grass is blue.

The tiger replies:
– No, the grass is green.

The dispute escalates and both decide to submit it to the arbitration of the lion, “the king” of the jungle. Long before reaching the clearing where the lion was resting, the donkey begins to cry:

“Your Highness, isn’t the grass blue?”

The lion replies:
– Indeed, the grass is blue.

The donkey rushes up and insists:
– The tiger does not agree with me, he contradicts me and that annoys me. Please punish him!

The lion then declares:
– The tiger will be punished with 1/2 day of silence.

The donkey begins to jump happily and continues on its way, happy and repeating:
– The grass is blue… the grass is blue…

The tiger accepts his punishment, but demands an explanation from the lion:
“Your Highness, why did you punish me? After all, isn’t the grass green?

The lion said to him:

• Indeed, the grass is green.

The tiger, surprised, asks him:
“Then why are you punishing me???

The lion explains to him:
– It has nothing to do with whether the grass is blue or green. Your punishment comes from the fact that it is not possible that a brave and intelligent creature like you could waste your time arguing with a madman and a fanatic who does not care about truth or reality, but only of the victory of his beliefs and his illusions. Never waste time with arguments that make no sense… There are people who, no matter what evidence is presented to them, are unable to understand. And others, blinded by their ego, their hatred and their resentment, will only ever wish for one thing: to be right even if they are wrong.

When ignorance cries out, intelligence is silent.
Peace and tranquility are priceless…

In other words, “When a wise man argues with a fool, two fools end the discussion.”

The issue is that there are more and more fools, and they are more and more closed to the facts and dangerous.

As it is useless to try to debate with them, what should we do?