Sorry, this was a side blow to Lois, who always comes back to her idea that free will does not exist, but always refuses to answer crucial questions. It is our beloved feud.Saying free will does not exist and saying it does because you've changed the definition is the same thing. Believing we can deserve what happens to us as a result of our choices because we could have done otherwise but chose not to makes us disfunctional. So things change a lot when you change the definition of free will. Oh and hi GdB, hope all is well.
That still doesn't solve the whole reality bit. Am I really just supposed to take a leap of faith and BELIEVE things are real?You are taking a leap of faith just by asking people if things are real. What if this is an illusion? What if the illusion convinces you that things are real? That's the risk you take by asking anyone or anything-including yourself. Why would you pose such a question when you should know that you could never get a definite answer? An answer you could trust. The paradox is that you are able to use constructs that wholly come from an actual reality(because-yes this is all real) and use those constructs to question reality itself. With the arrogance of the human mind's adventurism, you're forgetting that you're building one idea from another idea. And trying to call them separate.
Why don’t we try to devise a test to determine if solipsism is true? There are many types of solipsism, but based on your opening statement I believe that we are talking about metaphysical solipsism, “All of reality is actually a dream and therefore a construct of our mind". So, if all of reality to just a construct of the mind, then we should be able to change reality by changing our mind. Here is my first test. As I am sitting here writing this I look out the window and the grass is brown and scraggly from the abuse it takes during the winter. I would like to change that. So, in my mind I say the grass should be green and lush. Then when I turn my head and look out it is still brown and scraggly. It appears that metaphysical solipsism has failed this first test. Your thoughts?No one can "change his mind." What we think is determined by factors beyond our control. To "change one's mind" consciously means overriding genetic and environmental determining factors by force of will, which would be impossible.
What many people don’t understand by solipsism is not that everything is imaginary, but that anything and everything could be imaginary. We have no way of knowing what is imaginaty and what is real, if anything is real. The solipsist simply states that we may not be able to distinguish between reality and imagination and that taken to its logical conclusion–everything may or may not be imaginary. That’s all it means.
Solipsism notwithstanding, when you do something that gives you and perhaps someone else pleasure, then your life is meaningful. When you grieve for a lost one, it means that person was meaningful to you. "When you are sorrowful look again in your heart, and you shall see that in truth you are weeping for that which has been your delight", Kahlil Gibran. Life is full of successes and failures and they are all meaningful to the person experiencing these feelings. I don't understand why life would lose meaning by the knowledge that the universe is all mathematics. It is our personal experiences that gives meaning to ourselves and hopefully to others.Are there any others?
That still doesn't solve the whole reality bit. Am I really just supposed to take a leap of faith and BELIEVE things are real?Well, according to Tegmark, yes. If we were ourselves simulated sentient beings inside a simulation we would never know the difference. He believes the essence of the universe is purely mathematical and that we are just forms of accumulated values. Fundamentally, everything is an expression of mathematical values and relatively simple in function. But, as previously explained, there are common experiences of reality which reinforces our experience of reality, such as physically sitting behind a physical computer and typing stuff. The proof lies in the fact that I can read what you wrote. My belief of your existence is reinforced by my own relative experience. We *experience* things relatively differently and it's not a matter of *either or*. This was addressed by Hazen, life as a reality is not a matter of inevitability or from pure chance, it's within a range of probability. The formation of living things itself had a high probability and here we are. But most of our relative experiences can be explained by our MNN (mirror neural network) which allows us to experience your emotions.from our own experiences. We wince when we see someone stub their toe. Why do WE wince? We did not stub our toe. So why did we *experience* the same physical response as the guy who stubbed his toe. We know his pain is real, we all have stubbed our toes once. I find comfort in my ability to experience someone else's joy also, for me those are the things that keep it real. In your mind, anyway.
That still doesn't solve the whole reality bit. Am I really just supposed to take a leap of faith and BELIEVE things are real?That's what we do, whether it's rational or not.
That still doesn't solve the whole reality bit. Am I really just supposed to take a leap of faith and BELIEVE things are real?That's what we do, whether it's rational or not. No we don't. We dont believe things irrationally.
What many people don't understand by solipsism is not that everything is imaginary, but that anything and everything could be imaginary. We have no way of knowing what is imaginaty and what is real, if anything is real. The solipsist simply states that we may not be able to distinguish between reality and imagination and that taken to its logical conclusion--everything may or may not be imaginary. That's all it means.It is clear what Titanomachina means:
But the thing is I can't prove its true. I can't prove that this is a dream and the people are fake anymore than I can prove it isn't a dream and it's all real.
I mean to say that there is no proof that anything outside of me is real. But then again there is no proof it's a dream. I can't disprove it but I can't prove it. Thing is I can't leave things like this alone. I need a definitive answer to it. But this places doubt on certainty and reality.This is a perfectly correct meaning of solipsism, namely Metaphysical solipsism]:
Metaphysical solipsism is the variety of idealism which asserts that nothing exists externally to this one mind, and since this mind is the whole of reality then the "external world" was never anything more than an idea. It can also be expressed by the assertion "there is nothing external to these present experiences", in other words, no reality exists beyond whatever is presently being sensed. The aforementioned definition of solipsism entails the non-existence of anything presently unperceivable including the external world, causation, other minds (including God's mind or a subconscious mind), the past or future, and a subject of experience. The solipsistic self is adequately described by Wittgenstein in the Tractatus as follows: "The self of solipsism shrinks to a point without extension and there remains the reality coordinated with it"
Just in case I am a metaphysical solipsist, I would like to apologize, in advance of my dying, for all of you, then, ceasing to exist.
That still doesn't solve the whole reality bit. Am I really just supposed to take a leap of faith and BELIEVE things are real?That's what we do, whether it's rational or not. No we don't. We dont believe things irrationally. As far as you can tell.
Just in case I am a metaphysical solipsist, I would like to apologize, in advance of my dying, for all of you, then, ceasing to exist.Apology accepted;)
That still doesn't solve the whole reality bit. Am I really just supposed to take a leap of faith and BELIEVE things are real?That's what we do, whether it's rational or not. No we don't. We dont believe things irrationally. Whether you want to accept it or not, the truth is we are irrational creatures. A lot of outlives are based on belief. Belief that our senses guide us true, or that we will live tomorrow. Whether existence is real or a dream, there is no proof or rationality to support either. It comes down to what you want to believe. For all the championing of rationality that people claim they are, they operate of blind faith whether they know it or not. Its funny really.
Whether existence is real or a dream, there is no proof or rationality to support either. It comes down to what you want to believe. For all the championing of rationality that people claim they are, they operate of blind faith whether they know it or not. Its funny really.What's a dream? Isn't that something that happens when we sleep? Is there another "dream" we are not aware of? You're not going to keep borrowing from this reality to explain another reality I hope...That would be kind of silly. "Existence is real" is a redundancy. "Existence is a dream" is a crazy idea about the state of matter/space-time.(it's a mental construct that flies in the face of science) You can make all kinds of fluffy bumper sticker ideas. That's easy. Why don't you go ahead and try explaining your "brain in a jar" thought experiment like I requested in the other thread... Let's see how far you can take that. Or do we have to settle for the same ontological argument people use to explain gods? "I can't prove god doesn't exist, therefore it's possible.." Because there's an infinite amount of evidence that we are experiencing this existence. You know, the one we are communicating in right now.
One thing no one can imagine is how these metaphysical concepts could come about, be it not for this
rational, physical construct we call reality.
Ooops. That’s it.
“I’m going to use all of these tools to prove that they(the tools) don’t exist.”
Try again please.
Solipsism notwithstanding, when you do something that gives you and perhaps someone else pleasure, then your life is meaningful. When you grieve for a lost one, it means that person was meaningful to you. "When you are sorrowful look again in your heart, and you shall see that in truth you are weeping for that which has been your delight", Kahlil Gibran. Life is full of successes and failures and they are all meaningful to the person experiencing these feelings. I don't understand why life would lose meaning by the knowledge that the universe is all mathematics. It is our personal experiences that gives meaning to ourselves and hopefully to others.Are there any others? Well, that question could have been posted by a bot. Are you a bot?
One thing no one can imagine is how these metaphysical concepts could come about, be it not for this rational, physical construct we call reality. Ooops. That's it. "I'm going to use all of these tools to prove that they(the tools) don't exist." Try again please.Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner! Frankly, this thread is much ado about nothing. We don't understand everything about reality, but scientists have an extremely close approximation of reality; close enough that we can hold this long-distance conversation. Worrying about being a brain in a glass jar imagining the universe is mental masturbation.
One thing no one can imagine is how these metaphysical concepts could come about, be it not for this rational, physical construct we call reality. Ooops. That's it. "I'm going to use all of these tools to prove that they(the tools) don't exist." Try again please.Exempt our sense are fallible. There are optical illusions, temperature, audio, even touch based ones. How can you be sure what you see and experience is real And not a product of your imagination? Someone could say we are all figments of their imagination and we couldn't prove them wrong.
Someone could say we are all figments of their imagination and we couldn't prove them wrong.The burden of proof lies upon the person making the claim. No one can prove we are nothing but figments of their imagination.
One thing no one can imagine is how these metaphysical concepts could come about, be it not for this rational, physical construct we call reality. Ooops. That's it. "I'm going to use all of these tools to prove that they(the tools) don't exist." Try again please.Exempt our sense are fallible. There are optical illusions, temperature, audio, even touch based ones. How can you be sure what you see and experience is real And not a product of your imagination? Someone could say we are all figments of their imagination and we couldn't prove them wrong. The opposite is true. The endless variety of subjective experiences rather confirms that we are not a pre-programmed illusion, OUR reality itself unfolds through the evolutionary process and in spite of our subjective and relatively different *experience* of what and how we observe it, what we observe IS reality because it is already happened and fixed in our past, no matter how brief or long ago. Reality is real, we just experience it differently. That only means our thoughts are the metaphysical imaginations. .