There are a few people here who seem to be of the opinion that some fictional liberal elite is responsible for all the ills of western society. Apparently if not for “liberals” then we’d all be living in happy healthy homes, children wouldn’t getting fat, they’d stop being gay… and screwing around… and doing crime… and taking drugs, etc…
I’d really like to see some evidence of this liberal elite that is so destructive in the west.
We know how destructive the elites are many other places, think of the violent former KGB cliche that now effectively owns Russia, or the Chinese Communist party that has the blood of tens of millions on its hands and will imprison or kill anyone who even questions whether they have the right to govern there.
But how about the west and more specifically the US, has it been the liberal elite denying freedom and enslaving people here?
Arguably one of the most powerful families in the US and by extension the world has been the Bushs. Prescott Bush was a wealthy banker, Senator and king maker for people like Richard Nixon who he pulled out of obscurity in California. His son went on to head the CIA, was Reagan’s VP and a one term US president. His grandson was a two term US president and another grandson was a leading candidate for the republican party last year. Prescott, George Sr. and George Jr. all allegedly members of one of the most exclusive secret societies on the planet at Yale. You don’t get any more “establishment” than that anywhere.
There is no comparison within the Democrat party. The Kennedys probably come the closest but only put one son in the White House and another in Congress.
Going by the logic of the arch-conservatives who are here to school us on just how virtuous they and their movement are, then the effect of that arch-conservative family should have should have brought stability, freedom and respect for the law across the western world.
Like hell it did. Prescott Bush was the banker to Hitler’s banker, he helped make WW II happen and things like the Holocaust.
George Bush's grandfather, the late US senator Prescott Bush, was a director and shareholder of companies that profited from their involvement with the financial backers of Nazi Germany.
The Guardian has obtained confirmation from newly discovered files in the US National Archives that a firm of which Prescott Bush was a director was involved with the financial architects of Nazism.
His business dealings, which continued until his company's assets were seized in 1942 under the Trading with the Enemy Act, has led more than 60 years later to a civil action for damages being brought in Germany against the Bush family by two former slave labourers at Auschwitz and to a hum of pre-election controversy.
The evidence has also prompted one former US Nazi war crimes prosecutor to argue that the late senator's action should have been grounds for prosecution for giving aid and comfort to the enemy.
The debate over Prescott Bush's behaviour has been bubbling under the surface for some time. There has been a steady internet chatter about the "Bush/Nazi" connection, much of it inaccurate and unfair. But the new documents, many of which were only declassified last year, show that even after America had entered the war and when there was already significant information about the Nazis' plans and policies, he worked for and profited from companies closely involved with the very German businesses that financed Hitler's rise to power. It has also been suggested that the money he made from these dealings helped to establish the Bush family fortune and set up its political dynasty.
George H. W. isn't much better, he helped start wars in Central America and the Middle East that were mostly about profit that helped kill hundreds of thousands and laid the groundwork for a grinding conflict will likely continue for decades.
His son totally blew it when he invaded and occupied the wrong country and the US has lost thousands of lives and had tens of thousands permanently shattered not to mention the trillions of dollars added to the US debt with no gain, once again to make a few people a whole of money. Which also happened as under his oversight the banks went nuts and brought the global economy to its knees making homeless and jobless millions of Americans and people across the planet. People at places like Goldman Sachs got even richer while millions were punished brutally.
So please describe how "liberals" have even come close to the devastation created by this one conservative dynasty that was also responsible for the rise of Richard Nixon.
And thinking that a billionaire noted for his hedonistic lifestyle, massive ego, contempt for the law and any sense of ethics or morality like Trump is going to be an improvement on this sad legacy is highly dubious. One that is likely being held hostage by that same violent former KGB cliche that now owns Russia.
https: //www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jan/10/fbi-chief-given-dossier-by-john-mccain-alleging-secret-trump-russia-contacts
Senator John McCain passed documents to the FBI director, James Comey, last month alleging secret contacts between the Trump campaign and Moscow and that Russian intelligence had personally compromising material on the president-elect himself.
The material, which has been seen by the Guardian, is a series of reports on Trump’s relationship with Moscow. They were drawn up by a former western counter-intelligence official, now working as a private consultant. BuzzFeed on Tuesday published the documents, which it said were “unverified and potentially unverifiable".
From what I can see you don't get any more unethical, immoral and illegal than many of those who lead conservatives in the west.
Ten days and no takers, Beltane? perhaps webplotter will take a stab at it. Be interesting hearing his interpretation.
Interpretation?
More like spin, invade a nation because you claim to have definitive intelligence it has WMDs that it's going to launch with UAVs at your coastal cities then when it turns out the nation has neither WMDs or UAVs claim it's about building democracy. While making huge amounts of money through the defence sector and related sectors. How much did the Bush family make through its connections to Halliburton and The Carlyle Group alone during the Iraq war. How much money did the Bush family make working with Fritz Theissen without whom Hitler would have just been some fringe nut job ranting on the streets.
That's just to start, conservatives have no problem killing on a massive scale if they can turn a buck, but when people want to have actual freedom and the right to pursue happiness in their own way they're a danger to us all. They're the biggest hypocrites in the world.
The general motivation for the various foreign ‘adventures’ mentioned was an attempt to impose some degree of justice in despotic countries who’s citizens were subjected to murder, torture and political disenfranchisement. The fact that profis were made is just a fact of life that goes hand in hand with a capitalist approach to dealing with problems. Surely, to choose to do nothing and condemn ordinary people to the worst excesses of evil despots is diametrically opposed to a liberal outlook, so I find it puzzling that people can be so hypocritical about this.
There have always and will always be powerful families who wield substantial political and economic power in the world and there is no getting round this. But it is better that this is the case in an open, democratic society with a free press that is able to question and criticize the motives and actions of those in power, rather than in one with a state controlled press and the oppression of any effective opposition. Our country is not a perfect one but at least it allows for the least amongst us to have a say and to this extent liberalism is to be applauded. It is when liberalism becomes abused in the name of decadence and self-indulgence that it is time to take a step back and ask ourselves what we are really doing. People who moan about the way people in power abuse (in their view) their position need to go live in Russia or Saudi Arsbia for a few years in order to gain a better perspective
webplodder is not worth responding to. He makes comparison that suit him, but ignores ones that don’t.
I proposed something like to my conservative uncle, pointing out how much power the Republicans hold, governors, the house, etc, yet they haven’t managed to accomplish much. His answer was that the Democrats still have enough power to be obstructionist. We don’t talk politics much anymore.
The general motivation for the various foreign 'adventures' mentioned was an attempt to impose some degree of justice in despotic countries who's citizens were subjected to murder, torture and political disenfranchisement. The fact that profis were made is just a fact of life that goes hand in hand with a capitalist approach to dealing with problems. Surely, to choose to do nothing and condemn ordinary people to the worst excesses of evil despots is diametrically opposed to a liberal outlook, so I find it puzzling that people can be so hypocritical about this.
Like hell it was, fascists of whatever stripe in the west backing Hitler had nothing to do with bringing justice to a despotic country, it imposed one of the most despotic and murderous regimes in history on a country that in turn triggered a global war that resulted in the deaths of between 50 and 80 million humans. And even after Germany declared war on the US Prescott Bush was still doing business with Hitler.
George H.W.s invasion of Panama was complete BS, he wasn't going there to save anyone, he was bringing into line a former puppet who got too big for his britches. Operation 'Just Cause" was anything but, when American gunships set a slum on fire it killed several thousand Panamanians who were then buried in a mass grave. Tell me how that isn't a war crime.
Then Bush moved on to baiting Saddam to invade Kuwait that kicked off decades of bloodshed that has made tremendous amounts of money for people closely connected to the Bushes and more.
You send your ambassador to a brutal dictator - one Reagan helped arm to fight the Iranians - with this message, it's basically telling him to go ahead and attack his neighbour.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/gulf-war-documents-meeting-between-saddam-hussein-and-ambassador-to-iraq-april-glaspie/31145
U.S. Ambassador Glaspie – What solutions would be acceptable?
Saddam Hussein – If we could keep the whole of the Shatt al Arab – our strategic goal in our war with Iran – we will make concessions (to the Kuwaitis). But, if we are forced to choose between keeping half of the Shatt and the whole of Iraq (i.e., in Saddam s view, including Kuwait ) then we will give up all of the Shatt to defend our claims on Kuwait to keep the whole of Iraq in the shape we wish it to be. (pause) What is the United States’ opinion on this?
U.S. Ambassador Glaspie – We have no opinion on your Arab – Arab conflicts, such as your dispute with Kuwait. Secretary (of State James) Baker has directed me to emphasize the instruction, first given to Iraq in the 1960’s, that the Kuwait issue is not associated with America. (Saddam smiles)
All this gave the massive US military-industrial complex a new lease on life after the end of the Cold War.
Then we get to Bush W. who's administration almost completely fabricated justification to attack the same nation and his VP had very close ties to a corporation that made billions from the war.
There have always and *will* always be powerful families who wield substantial political and economic power in the world and there is no getting round this. But it is better that this is the case in an open, democratic society with a free press that is able to question and criticize the motives and actions of those in power, rather than in one with a state controlled press and the oppression of any effective opposition. Our country is not a perfect one but at least it allows for the least amongst us to have a say and to this extent liberalism is to be applauded. It is when liberalism becomes abused in the name of decadence and self-indulgence that it is time to take a step back and ask ourselves what we are really doing. People who moan about the way people in power abuse (in their view) their position need to go live in Russia or Saudi Arsbia for a few years in order to gain a better perspective
Once again like hell it is. A family dynasty that often has worked through a secret society and helped kill or injure millions of Americas while often making common cause with America's worst enemies has no place at all in a open and free society. In fact if this kind of total abuse of power is allowed to continue far enough then we'll end up with no freedom or rights here. Which when you look at who and what conservatives are and have always been in the west is likely their intent.
There's a reason that the Bushes were part of the conservative movement and why Putin chose to insert his destructive puppet into the republican party not the democrats. First off the democrats would have laughed him off the stage and secondly a party based on mass representation simply can't be controlled like one based on elitism and power can be.
Liberalism isn't being abusive, the power in the name of a wealthy few by conservative is. That includes the conservative president now in the White House and the entire republican party which has become little more than astro-turf for big tobacco and the fossil fuel sector.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brendan-demelle/study-confirms-tea-party-_b_2663125.html
A new academic study confirms that front groups with longstanding ties to the tobacco industry and the billionaire Koch brothers planned the formation of the Tea Party movement more than a decade before it exploded onto the U.S. political scene.
Far from a genuine grassroots uprising, this astroturf effort was curated by wealthy industrialists years in advance. Many of the anti-science operatives who defended cigarettes are currently deploying their tobacco-inspired playbook internationally to evade accountability for the fossil fuel industry’s role in driving climate disruption.
The only thing that liberalism threatens is an agenda that is already removing most wealth and power from most of the people in the west including the US. Tell me how you can pursue happiness if you can't afford food, housing, healthcare and more let alone be free. What conservatism has turned into in the US is anathema to the intent of the people who created the country in the first place. It says right there in the Declaration of Independence that tyrants are not to be tolerated, but that is exactly what Trump is and what the republican party has become under Tea Party control. They don't listen to anyone but those who pay them and only work in their own interests no matter the damage done. That includes the bloody wars the Bushes did so much to start and so much more.
As I said this is just more conservative scapegoating to disguise just how utterly destructive to freedom and life on the planet the political right has become. We don't have too much freedom in the west, it's rapidly disappearing.
You just have to look at Kansas to see the kind of “paradise” that conservatives are intent on bringing to all of America. The republican controlled state senate was forced to override their own governors insane tax policies because the state is on the verge of collapse.
Kansas is broke – but you wouldn’t guess it looking at its shining state capitol in Topeka. The imposing limestone monument, crowned by a shiny copper dome and limned with John Steuart Curry’s luminous murals, has just undergone a $325m facelift. What’s happening inside the state house is a lot less pretty, and may well foreshadow the far uglier battle looming over the future of taxation in the United States.
Last month, Donald Trump’s two key economic allies, the treasury secretary. Stephen Mnuchin, and Trump’s chief economic adviser, Gary Cohn, unveiled the outline of Donald Trump’s much-trailed tax plan. The biggest tax cuts “in history" would slash taxes for business, simplify taxes for everyone else, and “pay for themselves" by stimulating economic growth, Trump’s fiscal duo claimed.
The plan’s similarity to the one that has left Kansas in crisis is “unbelievable", according to Duane Goossen, the former Kansas secretary of administration.
This is just one issue where conservatives are completely delusional, others include human forced climate change and reasons and likely catastrophic outcomes of the vast and rapidly widening gulf between the wealthy and the rest of the US population. This is what happens when you let a few people with too much money and far too few brains take control of what is supposed to be a free nation based on mass representation.
People like the Kochs used judges they had bought off long ago to allow them to buy the US political system outright. Scalia and Thomas should have recused themselves on Citizens United because of their close association to the Kochs but they didn't and now the US system is thoroughly corrupted by money.
And that was a conservative created problem by prominent conservative appointed Justices working in the interests of super-rich conservative donors. The fact that there are still people who think that the republican party still represents anybody but the wealthy is amazing.
We can't blame the entire sad state of affairs on the republicans, if the Democrats hadn't screwed around with the primaries then Sanders could very well be president right now and the US could be heading in an entirely new and needed direction back to what the nation is supposed to be. A place where freedom and equality are actually respected and valued by the government, not sold off to the highest bidder.