Relative Understanding

General Discussion
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I see that Sree rarely makes sense let alone understands solipsism or what constitutes facts. The problem with solipsism is that there aren’t really any facts because you can’t verify them. The whole bit about it is that you don’t know, which scares me more than anything else.

“Nothing makes sense until you figure it out. You are ALONE. You either realize this or you don’t. Most people don’t. People who don’t feel ALONE are forms. They don’t believe in solipsism and live with other people in families and communities.”

Wrong.

“Being ALONE is frightening. Living in fear is a problem if you cannot deal with it. Being ALONE prevents you from relating with other people who are forms. This is why @3point14rat has been pleading with you to stay away from crazy stuff like solipsism.”

Also wrong as that is not what Rat is getting at with solipsism.

“Which way are you going? If you reject solipsism, then we can end this discussion. I am fine with that.”

You aren’t understanding the main argument at work here.

“Not to me.”

Being alone is a belief, whether you want to accept that or not it is very much a belief just as much as a belief in an external reality.

“Being ALONE is a FACT to me. The way to confirm this is not through discussion with other people and get their concurrence. Other people are not ALONE. They are just forms and pictures in my reality. Being ALONE requires self-confidence rooted in intelligence that comes from a flawless mind.”

Again, you are spouting a belief and making arbitrary distinctions without evidence. A “flawless” mind (no such thing by the way but for argument’s sake lets say it is) would not say it is alone for it cannot verify this, but it would also not say it isn’t as it cannot verify this. You are guilty of the same errors in logic and leaps in judgment as the author of that quote. You say MY reality, but how do you know there is a you? I mean you can’t verify you’re own existence. Are you a dream? A simulation on a computer? You DON’T KNOW. That is the point of solipsism, and skepticism to a point. You can’t verify you exist. You don’t KNOW other people are forms and pictures in your reality, that is pure belief.

“You have many doubts that cannot be silenced. You are unsure of many things. Curious as you are, you have neither the determination to inquire nor the courage to explore the unknown. You stand in the light among other people, and peer at the void, a darkness into which you dare not go.”

This is not a darkness or a void, it’s simply an unanswerable question. The ultimate sense is that you can’t know if you are alone or if others exist, period. It’s a question without an answer, you cannot gather proof of it in either direction. No amount of rhetoric will answer it either. It represents the limits of human reason and understanding, something you might want to take to heart before you spout random nonsense as fact. At least in the threads I linked people acknowledge this as an unknown (and that is why it’s a problem) and that it can’t be known or solved. You may wish to follow their example.

So far the only solution I have heard is to pick a direction and stick with it. You either believe it’s true or you don’t believe it’s true, but at the end of the day all you can do is believe (because there is no answer to it).

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Honestly Sree, it makes me wonder how you are a member on this forum when you don’t seem to display knowledge of the concepts you argue with.

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We don’t ban ignorance at CFI.

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Fair enough.

To get this back on topic I direct you to this:

“the solipsist mind is drawing a line around all the other minds saying this is my mind. The non-solipsist mind sees boundaries around every mind. Both are wrong because while the solipsist mind says ‘I am the only entity’, the non-solipsist one says ‘I am one of the entities’. In reality there is no mind, no basis for believing there is one or many. However, the solipsist is closer to the truth because it eliminates the illusion of diversity but unfortunately still keeping the identity of being someone, without further questioning the nature of that one.”

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I don’t really know why but there’s just this compulsion that I can’t leave any stone unturned when it comes to this otherwise I’d be guilty of confirmation bias.

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Oh geez, not confirmation bias again. I declare you not guilty. You are free to go.

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I see that Sree rarely makes sense let alone understands solipsism or what constitutes facts. The problem with solipsism is that there aren’t really any facts because you can’t verify them. The whole bit about it is that you don’t know, which scares me more than anything else. - @snowcity
Why are afraid of the FACT that you are reality and reality is you?
“Nothing makes sense until you figure it out. You are ALONE. You either realize this or you don’t. Most people don’t. People who don’t feel ALONE are forms. They don’t believe in solipsism and live with other people in families and communities.” - Sree

Wrong. - @snowcity


How is it wrong? How would you know that it is wrong? You can’t know this. You are either ALONE or you are not. In the latter case, you are picture in an imaginary world.

Being alone is a belief, whether you want to accept that or not it is very much a belief just as much as a belief in an external reality.
It’s not a belief to me. It’s not a philosophy. Being ALONE is to be free of all philosophies.
Again, you are spouting a belief and making arbitrary distinctions without evidence. A “flawless” mind (no such thing by the way but for argument’s sake lets say it is) would not say it is alone for it cannot verify this, but it would also not say it isn’t as it cannot verify this. You are guilty of the same errors in logic and leaps in judgment as the author of that quote. You say MY reality, but how do you know there is a you? I mean you can’t verify you’re own existence. Are you a dream? A simulation on a computer? You DON’T KNOW. That is the point of solipsism, and skepticism to a point. You can’t verify you exist. You don’t KNOW other people are forms and pictures in your reality, that is pure belief.
The only proof that I know I am not deluded is my ability to live ALONE unlike people moving in various fixed social patterns.
This is not a darkness or a void, it’s simply an unanswerable question. The ultimate sense is that you can’t know if you are alone or if others exist, period. It’s a question without an answer, you cannot gather proof of it in either direction. No amount of rhetoric will answer it either. It represents the limits of human reason and understanding, something you might want to take to heart before you spout random nonsense as fact. At least in the threads I linked people acknowledge this as an unknown (and that is why it’s a problem) and that it can’t be known or solved. You may wish to follow their example.
If you don’t know and you can’t know, then why do you waste your life inquiring into all kinds of airy-fairy subjects? Are you seeking self-assurance among duds, people who are forms and pictures in reality?
So far the only solution I have heard is to pick a direction and stick with it. You either believe it’s true or you don’t believe it’s true, but at the end of the day all you can do is believe (because there is no answer to it).
If this is the tack you take, then you will end up getting sucked into the abyss along with the herd.
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The most rational solution is to act as though solipsism is false because that way everyone wins. The two alternatives: 1) Solipsism is true, and 2) We can’t know one way or the other, can lead to either destructive thoughts and actions or total inaction, both of which are very bad for you.

Why would anyone treat their fellow humans, their home planet, and themselves differently depending on the answer to solipsism? Cause and effect exist regardless, so being a dick has the same negative consequences to you in both scenarios.

Your curiosity is great; you are interested in very deep and mind-bending questions that have been asked for thousands of years. Just don’t let the fact the questions are unanswerable keep you up at night.

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Why are afraid of the FACT that you are reality and reality is you?
Because it's not a fact. You are not reality and reality is not you. How hard is that to understand?
It’s not a belief to me. It’s not a philosophy. Being ALONE is to be free of all philosophies.
Again, no it isn't because it's still just another philosophy.
How is it wrong? How would you know that it is wrong? You can’t know this. You are either ALONE or you are not. In the latter case, you are picture in an imaginary world.
The point is that you can't know if you are alone or not. It's unknowable. Nothing is a picture or anything like that. Stop claiming beliefs to be facts.
If this is the tack you take, then you will end up getting sucked into the abyss along with the herd.
You don't get it do you? The whole thing with solipsism is that you can't prove or disprove it. You either believe it or you don't, there is no amount of evidence or reason or logic that can change that. It's why philosophers leave it behind and call it a dead end.
If you don’t know and you can’t know, then why do you waste your life inquiring into all kinds of airy-fairy subjects? Are you seeking self-assurance among duds, people who are forms and pictures in reality?
There you go again trying to put beliefs as facts. They aren't duds or forms or pictures. That is your belief, it is not a fact. You, just like the OP, are jumping to conclusions that don't follow. It's quite clear you understand nothing about the subject or anything else for that matter.

Actually I did come across something that proves her wrong and you: Solipsism and the Problem of Other Minds | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

I did hear that some say the Hologram theory of the universe might be a reason people would believe in solipsism.

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I mean…Quora is littered with Questions about “how do I know others are conscious or not simulations”. The only answer is that you can’t know. Period. You either believe they are or don’t. It’s actually kind of sobering how many unanswerable questions there are.

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It’s also worth noting that those who claim it is true don’t understand the argument. I’ve also learned that it’s premises (that our minds are the only thing known to exist) is an assumption, it’s not known. How do I know I have a mind or that my mind exists or that I exist? I assume these things but I cannot “know” them to be true. I could very well be a dream of something or someone else, or a figment.

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The only answer is that you can’t know. Period. – Xain

So, you don’t know. So, what is your argument exactly? What is your logic that proves that you don’t know? How do you know you don’t know? And how do you know that? There seem to be two versions of “know” at play here.

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People live in “controlled hallucinations” (Anil Seth)

Pay close attention to what this scientist says, it’ll change your perspective of reality.

 

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It’s also worth noting that those who claim it is true don’t understand the argument. I’ve also learned that it’s premises (that our minds are the only thing known to exist) is an assumption, it’s not known. How do I know I have a mind or that my mind exists or that I exist? I assume these things but I cannot “know” them to be true. I could very well be a dream of something or someone else, or a figment. - @snowcity
Bang your head on the wall to establish the FACT that you exist, your mind exists, and that you have a mind. After that, if you still cannot “know” those things to be true, bang your head again harder on the wall. Keep banging your head until you know those things to be true.

The reason why you cannot wrap your head around the idea that your mental states are the only mental states is that you perceive yourself as one person in a sea of people, one leaf in a forest of trees, one blade of grass in a savanna, a grain of sand in the Sahara. You see yourself as a human digit instead of the representative of all mankind. You are a mediocrity. This is not an insult but a statement of FACT.

I felt that your post #336481 was an honest confession on your part in the search for clarity. It had a ring of sincerity that resonated with me. Your post could not have been written by a complete dud. It had a ring of truth in it. I thought you wanted to inquire into the viability of being “ALONE”. This is your word.

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7:15

Instead of perception depending largely on signals coming into the brain from the outside world, it depends as much, if not more, on perceptual predictions flowing in the opposite direction.

07:29
The world we experience comes as much, if not more, from the inside out as from the outside in.


 

With a greater sense of understanding comes a greater sense of wonder, and a greater realization that we are part of and not apart from the rest of nature. And ... when the end of consciousness comes, there's nothing to be afraid of. Nothing at all.
I admit I'm a tad more sensitive to these things by nature and especially after the past months of working over Donald's Hoffman stage act,

 

Still I need to make the point that it is very very unbecoming for a serious scientist to feel the need to resort to gratuitous words, that inject drama and what I hate is a misleading perspective. He would have done much better thinking about his topic and coming up with something original, something that painted a better impressions than some freaked “hallucination” analogy. Hideous!!! In no way is it a realistic appraisal of what’s going down when we perceive and think. Their’s something so sick about.

And given all the articles I’ve looked up these past weeks, I’m newly startled at how common this sort of disconnect from down-to-Earth reality and the actual subject, such as our perceiving and processing the world we are embedded within.

 

Instead, let’s spend all our time with fanciful tangents that take us further from understanding anything.

 

But, it is great head candy, intellectual smack.

 

"hallucination" = "an experience involving the apparent perception of something not present."
The sloppy misleading use of the term "hallucination" is an example of the gratuitous misuse of a word. A genuinely serious scientist would spend more time arriving at something with a little more explanatory power, if less sexy than hallucinations

 

 

Please someone explain to me what justified its use in that talk ?

and why a not different word, a better choice of word/concept that get’s much closer to the essence of what new finding are telling us.

 

Our eyes are optical instruments recording light reflected off real stuff.

Our brain processes and composed what our mind sees - to call any of that process a hallucination is utter bullshit!

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You see yourself as a human digit instead of the representative of all mankind. You are a mediocrity. This is not an insult but a statement of FACT. -- Sree
I think Xain is smart enough not to listen to you Sree. The "bang your head" response is a common one to solipsism. The entire basis of solipsism is that the human condition is that we only know what is in our own heads and we don't completely understand our own heads.
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CC: "Still I need to make the point that it is very very unbecoming for a serious scientist to feel the need to resort to gratuitous words, that inject drama and what I hate is a misleading perspective."
The pressure to render real science into easily consumable entertainment for short attention spans has resulted in lots of potential home-run presentations being merely bunts (that lead to a game-ending triple-play.)

Sometimes I watch a TED Talk and am amazed by the low level of education they seem to be aiming at. I’m far from being smart, but even I feel insulted by the lack of credit they give the audience.

It’s important to get science information to the masses. But anyone who needs it dumbed down that much isn’t going to be watching the video (or, especially, reading the article/book.)

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Our eyes are optical instruments recording light reflected off real stuff.
That's what the teacher said.
Our brain processes and composed what our mind sees – to call any of that process a hallucination is utter bullshit!
You believe what the teacher said. Things are different when you go to college where you question what the teacher said.
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Write4 that video has nothing to do with solipsism.

Bang your head on the wall to establish the FACT that you exist, your mind exists, and that you have a mind. After that, if you still cannot “know” those things to be true, bang your head again harder on the wall. Keep banging your head until you know those things to be true.

The reason why you cannot wrap your head around the idea that your mental states are the only mental states is that you perceive yourself as one person in a sea of people, one leaf in a forest of trees, one blade of grass in a savanna, a grain of sand in the Sahara. You see yourself as a human digit instead of the representative of all mankind. You are a mediocrity. This is not an insult but a statement of FACT.

I felt that your post #336481 was an honest confession on your part in the search for clarity. It had a ring of sincerity that resonated with me. Your post could not have been written by a complete dud. It had a ring of truth in it. I thought you wanted to inquire into the viability of being “ALONE”. This is your word.


AS I have mentioned before banging my head on a wall isn’t proof I exist. I could just be an illusion, consciousness and my selfhood and mind could just be an illusion. I could be a figment or a dream. Banging my head doesn’t prove I’m real. It doesn’t prove I have a mind either. I mean, what is a Mind? How do you know you have one? If all the data I have is sensation but according to solipsism sensation can’t be trusted then how can I know I am real and have a mind? No amount of bangs on the wall will prove I am real any more than watching someone else doing it will prove it to me. When you doubt evidence you forfeit any claims to truth or facts.

I think people are right to say not to listen to you because you don’t seem to grasp solipsism and keep asserting beliefs as facts. “My” mental states are the only ones I can know for sure (at least the argument says that, but it’s not true). Seeing myself as a representative of all mankind is a belief, not a fact. I assume others are like me because I look and behave like them. Seeing myself as one of many sounds like the default position to take as Solipsism is arrived at only through rigorous skepticism (but even it stops at some point).

Now let me reiterate, your claims of being alone are beliefs. Solipsism is a belief, and it took me a while to see that. I can’t prove I am alone or among many, so it falls to which one a person chooses to believe. Occam’s Razor, I see now, points to realism as the most logical explanation. I can’t see a rational reason to believe I created all of this and that these people are homunculi. It’s possible, I can’t say it isn’t. But after going through hell and back on this I can’t logically believe in solipsism anymore.

I suggest you go back to school Sree.

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But after going through hell and back on this I can’t logically believe in solipsism anymore. -- Xain
Cool. We'll see how long it lasts this time