Noahs flood debate

I don’t know, because it’s like saying atom and Adam are related. They aren’t, but the closest I can see is Adam and Atum and the Hebrew אדם.

https://biblehub.com/hebrew/120.htm

But, while Atum and Adam appear to be the same because Atum is the first god and Adam the first person.

Wiki link:

Blockquote In the Heliopolitan creation myth, Atum was considered to be the first god, having created himself, sitting on a mound (benben) (or identified with the mound itself), from the primordial waters (Nu).[6] Early myths state that Atum created the god Shu and goddess Tefnut by spitting them out of his mouth.[7] One text debates that Atum did not create Shu and Tefnut by spitting them out of his mouth by means of saliva and semen, but rather by Atum’s lips.[8] Another writing describes Shu and Tefnut being birthed by Atum’s hand. That same writing states that Atum’s hand is the title of the god’s wife based on her Heliopolitan beginning.[9] Other myths state Atum created by masturbation, with the hand he used in this act representing the female principle inherent within him.[10] Yet other interpretations state that he has made union with his shadow.[11]

But if we look even closer, we find that ADM means red or ground: The Hebrew Origins of Adam’s Name and its Connection to the Ground - hebrewversity

The Hebrew god took the ground and his breath/soul (God’s breath) or Nephesh, in Hebrew. ADM was first soul with his first breath being ruach or God’s breath/wind/source of life. The first living being with Nephesh or a soul is ADM in the Hebrew story, but ADM was not a deity or a demigod for that matter.

Now granted, various culture shared stories and adapted the stories they shared to their culture, basically sharing dying and rising god stories and the roots of them may very well be ancient Egyptian, but you cannot assume that Adam is Atum because of the spelling alone. Adam is first being and Atum is first god. It could be possible that the Hebrews changed the Egyptian story over centuries, because the Hebrews did worship more than one god at one time, but spelling alone cannot prove that there were two gods, with one demoted to the red/blood/ground, instead of a mouth. If that is the case, then any god buried into the earth or swallowed by his father is now an earthly being. In which case, the Greeks had a lot of earthly beings, thanks to Cronos. Then again, you could be onto something, but you may have to dig deeper. Spelling alone won’t get to any relationship though.

They are related. You cannot trust the biblical authority’s interpretation because they are biased with extreme prejudice against this. It would defeat their own preferred divorce from other prior civilizations. The claim that “atom” is merely ‘Greek’ is misleading with intent. But the Greeks likely adopted the term as it relates to their own memetic evolution of language. The “atom” is defined as “indivisible” by what we get from the Greeks. But Adam IS the prime characterization of what referenced ‘clay’ or the Earth beneath one’s feet and what would be intetpreted as solid. Both ‘adam’ and ‘atum’ have ‘m’ as its ending sound and likely referred to the objective endings as ‘n’ is to subjective endings. ‘t’ and ‘d’ relate to things but evolved of a mimicking of the sound of striking things like wood, versus something like a rock (or better, metal).

All our languages related but change due to many things. It is more likely that the phonetic sounds are what initially created words, not arbitrary symbols. A good read that I think relates to us here as skeptics is Richard Dawkin’s “The Selfish Gene” where he talks of words having the same kind of genetic like evolution and his analogy to how genes operate.

I can take most of the significant names and show such memetic relationships like this. But note that other factors have influence too just as genes can mutate by a variety of ways. Politics is an excellent example. Take some words more close in time, like “lieutenant”. If you are American, you will pronounce it “loo-ten-ant” but how do you think the British colonial commonwealth countries opted to choose to pronounce it, “lef-ten-ant”? This came from a political bias and the original use of the ‘u’ came from the Roman spelling and with the the sound, ‘v’. [This the source of why ‘w’ is sounded ‘v’ by the northern Germanic or Scandinavian cultures, and yet we pronouncr thisas ‘dubel -u’] This also evolved into a ‘b’ sound and makes, “witch” relate to “bitch”.

The Aramaic or northern African roots of the ‘ya’ or ‘ye’ sound was spelled with ‘i’ but politically had been altered by the Greek era to ‘j’ but came from economics: when we write cheques, to prevent others from changing say, a $10 to $100, we spell it out and use lines on either side to avoid this conterfeiting. The ancients used ‘I’ or’i’ as a symbol for one (as in Roman numerals). But to avoid counterfieting, they would hook the ‘I’ or ‘i’ to become ‘J’ or ‘j’ at the ends for the same reason. And since the Greeks also happen to use the ‘j’ as phonetically sounding like a soft ‘g’ sound, this is how the change of Yoshua (sound) became Jesus. These meant, “I am” and is how the French get “je suis”. Note too that Zeus, is related to ‘sis’ for “same” and is the ‘suis’ as well.

Going way back, the lion would rah (roar) and would be a sound representing how even a kid might try to scare one another. This sound AND the image of the male lion, with its main, became the predominant root that became “Ra” (the energy of the ‘rays’ of the sun), and our modern arrogant means to further insult the ancient Egyptian’s representation of this as another ‘god’ when it was likely just another means of learning the term for communicating the idea of ‘energetic’ concepts. “Va” is a diminished example of this and both relate to the verb, ‘are’ in English, and ‘va’ in French.

‘m’ sound was motherly and probably related to comfort as the sound we make when being breast fed as a baby. This is somewhat universal. The ‘n’ sound is dominant for negating concepts and why perhaps the subjective value of the sun to be dominant but negating of ‘m’ as secondary recipients of the ‘m’ in the earth receiving the sun at night as ‘n’ is primary for the rising of the sun at ‘eden’. The ‘t’ may have been representing ‘t’, ‘ch’, or ‘j’ sounds from our African roots and mimicked things like a javelin being thrown and striking something. "Torah is the ‘t’ and ‘ra’ and seems to suggest why it is the "words spoken or thrown out (by the source or a god).

I am confident about the relationship of the ‘eden’, ‘aten’, ‘atum’, and ‘adam’ roots this way for similar processes of thought. These consonents are cross linked to the diamond or circle of directions I tried to represent but should certainly be denied by most of the dominating religions today.

I believe that Jerusalem (je-ra-sol- um) is “I see the one [received]” or “the place where one sees the sun” or “I saw god”, etc. And I believe that Jerusalem as a place was the last remnant of the Egyptian rule over the whole region around 1000 BC. and that Judaism itself is the fallout of AkenAten (a kin to aten, or the same as the sun god) to the end of the dynasty including Ramses (‘ra-moses’ == leader of the light).

David gives us ‘divide’ to which can be either the Dead Sea continental divide, or the separation of Egypt’s last empire, or even the divide between Judea (where Jerusalem is) to the northern Israel (assyr- ra- el) [Assyrian source combined Asher and Ra as combined cultures]

Soloman can be "sol amun’ or the “solo” (orinal) end of the Egyptian empire.

It’s not important to be exact. But if you are not religious as I am, I do not actually believe that any names from any of the religions were of arbitrary names. We are biased to name our children BEFORE they are born; the ancients named their children by how they behaved and any titles that give us a clue about who they represent from common terms.

“Cronus” is related to “chronos” (time and/or order); YHWY is Ye-oveh (== the egg) and relates directly to Jehovah as (je- ova) meaning the same.

The story of Adam and Eve is not about the origin of two particular humans but told as such to combine cleverly a few ideas in one. Adam is from is the being made from clay and why it is the Earth beneath our feet. It opposes the supreme origin or ‘egg’ of the sky, the sun with its most perfect circle in contrast to the oval of eggs of fish and birds, etc. [if Aten is the perfect shape in the heavens, representing God, and Adam is made in his ‘image’, it stands to reason they might name him similarly.] Adam represents the indivisible first of mankind, where Eve represent all the rest of mankind and suggests a kind of ‘et cetera’ which gives us “eve-rything” for “eve-r”.

Ptah was another name not necessarily a literal god either but refers to another aspect from the sun, the sound of a spark (like fire). I already mentioned, Nut, Nun, and the Nile.

Amun is likely “the end” or a secondary thing like the moon (which sounds familiar to ‘a moon’). And would make AmunRa be ‘moonlight’.

I can go on and on. But the point of these as ‘etymological’ roots are less biased than to presume the religiously biased interpretation. We may know that the Hebrew asserts that the ‘Ark’ (of the covenent) is merely a cupboard, but it was probably an remnant obelisk of AkenAten’s city moved to the desert (Armana) that was broken and held many commandments for that ‘moses’ when he was finally asked kindly to leave for his intentional denial of respect of all other cultures that he tried to wipe out. The ‘ark’ was thus a likely real boat or an amphibious sled like those used to help build the pyramids. It may have been slowly destroyed due to normal erosion and time and thus became the eventual box left over as a mere ‘cupboard’ that the Jews now assert. Note how that though happens to match a similar box in King Tut’s tomb?, Tut-moses is the sun of AkenAten.

There are a lot of reasons why these words are not accepted and are intentionally being given false etymological roots. It might, for instance, indicate that the original ‘promised land’ WAS Egypt but that their failure left them only Palestine as the last remnant of the monothiestic AkenAten. Note how the story divorces Moses from that by asserting him a foreigner instead?

Jacob (ja cob) == I stumbled or I walk; then when he realized where or who he was fighting, he became Israel (I saw Thee light); relates to Achilles in the Greek. Eden relates to the Oden of the north which suggests that there was back and forth waves of travel back and forth.

Okay, I’m just going on too much. This should be enough and has digressed from the topic too far.

I’m not going to provide a link for this, but just site my favorite living historian, Richard Carrier. I like him because he helps make history accessible. He has done a lot to explain Bayesian reasoning and he talks about the scholars that he depends on. The history that most of us read requires very technical work, on things like language. People who do that work can spend months determining the correct letter or word on a piece of clay or parchment. They also provide us with the sort of language analysis you are doing, but they do it with a lot more precision and data to back it up, not just noticing a one-letter difference, or seeing “Eve” in a modern word.

Sure. Do you know who were the first hominids to believe in a god?

Yes, I’m familliar with him and met him here in Saskatoon with our CFI group a few years back. There was only four of us because some strong feminists in the group did not want to associate with him regarding some rumours of sexual misconduct. But he didn’t approve of a particular author that both I and Dawkins liked regarding a similar take on interpreting Jesus as not being taken as literal as I agree with too. I can’t recall which author it was but know that Richard did not like him even with Dawkins’ support of him. I think it might have been this one: Misquoting Jesus (?) by Bart Ehrman but not absolutely sure. I took a quick look in my library but it is temporarily disorganized and can’t find it.

I also like Richards take too but just disagree with his concern over the guy. [He seemed annoyed of him but may differ now]? My own take is independent and rather naive. I still find it useful to hypothesize and relate them.

@lausten Just to clarify, the others may have not met up with him because I was vocal in my disapproval of some commenting about the rumor and so this may not have been about Richard directly. I am assertive but relative to many come across agressive. So my appearance may have turned them away?

I have his “Proven History” here and have yet to read it because I read from his site about his take using Baysian techniques to which I am sufficiently familiar with. But…I actually have his book out to read now and will get to it. I placed my priorities on other issues (like physics) and have to still go over a lot of ground for developing my own theory on physics. The depth is overwhelming and is actually something I need help with because I don’t think it possible for me to do this alone. I likely will not get published before I die but won’t give up. Richard and I share some of our thinking but he’s formally educated and I am self-taught (ongoing). I spread my interests very broadly and ‘foundationally’ so. Anyways…don’t interpret the rumor as the actual cause given it may only have been my own pushiness against the kind of ‘cancel culture’ Canadians here invented! :grin:

No. Or are you setting up a joke?

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Who said I was trusting them? That’s pretty much the only sources I can get online. That and the Hebrew one wasn’t exactly Biblical. It was more Jewish.

Um… Wrong atom. I never said it was Greek nor did I say Atum was Greek.

I don’t think you quite grasped what Dawkin’s was saying.

Oy vey! I think you took the lion sound and Ra a bit too far. Cats were gods in their own rite (pun intended). Ra was not symbolized as a cat. Please don’t insult Bast by saying Ra (the sun) is a cat. Ra was the Sun [of god], who rose in the morning as a young man, matured around noon, was old in the evening, died and was reborn. The same went for the seasons. Of course I abbreviate this a bit, but any dying and rising god is set to that same idea/motif, but the names, not necessarily. Adam wasn’t a god or even a demigod.

I think you are stretching the late Acharya S’s work a bit. If this is your source, please cite it and give us a link if you can.

lol If you were referring to Acharya’s work, this is where you screw up. Is (Isis) Ra (Ra) and El (El) as the respective gods. It’s in her work. The Is has nothing to do with assyr, but rather Isis.

Please, please… IF you are going to go now this road, please read Acharya S AKA D.M. Murdock. She may be dead now, but her work out lives her and you can read it and get a better understanding of where you are trying to go with this.

No, this is recorded history.

A group of researchers recorded the behaviour of an alpha chimpanzee during a monsoon storm.
When the thunder, and lightning started a chimpanzee family feeding in a clearing, hurried for any kind of shelter at the forest edge and huddled together.

But the Alpha male started running around the clearing beating at the bushes and finally picked up a stick and beat the bushes and waved it in the air in a gesture of defiance to that unseen enemy in the sky that was making loud noises, and throwing water and fire down making his family wet and scared .

The Alpha was clearing in an aggressive defense mode against this unseen being in the sky.
As Chimpanzees are the lesser evolved compared to humans, it can be said that the first sky god was believed to be real by our common ancestor and is deeply ingrained in our evolutionary chronology.

This was recorded on film and shown I believe as NOVA presentation. I’ll see if I can find it. it is remarkable observing the chimpanzee alpha defending his family.

Gods may have been with us for perhaps hundreds of thousands of years.

After all, the first survival mechanism was the fight or flight reaction in response to a possible unseen external threat

It’s an hour long, but you can listen and get a feel for her:

I am interested by a link, please.

“Jewish” is indifferent to “Hebrew” for me. While I get what you mean, I don’t associate myself to a racial culture and no one asserts themselves, “Christian” just because they have Christian parents. There is still a political interest by non-religious Jews who also happen to believe in the state of Isreal. As such, there is still a discrimination underlying the surface by those who identify with their parental lineage. I do not. [It relates to the fact that I was adopted too, though. I do not get how my own country, Canada, thinks that one’s genetic lineage ‘owns’ some culture as though if my parents liked the color red, that I somehow ‘own’ some inherent right to the color with priority.]

So my intepretation of using sources that self identify a heritage that still has strong political interests in a ‘right’ to some official claims based on what may threaten one’s own statehood *can * be biased sufficiently regardless of one’s actual religious affiliation.

I DO not discount other sources and don’t mind looking the authors you suggest. But I also do not believe that there is ‘evidence’ that assures one interpretation regarding etymology is correct. I am still recognizant of this but broaden my scope to all cultures and have only selected guesses which I do not hold absolute.

As to…

This is a misunderstanding. I assumed you knew that the common etymology states that “atom” came from the Greeks and meant “indivisible”. I’m saying they stopped short so as to not permit a link to the religious character Adam that would affectively disrepect all the Judea-Christians. I also do not think that Atum was Greek but is specifically Egyptian. But I gave this as the root of “autumn” and spoke of how the politics alters spelling but keeps the phonetic sounds sometimes. “Autumn” means “fall” and does relate to Adam but to the ancients via Egypt is two differnt meanings. Adam is the solid Earth to which man ‘fell’ (atum).

You mean that you differ on my opinion. That’s fair. But I do understand what Dawkins referred to and it was specifically his use of his invention of ‘meme’ that influences my intepretation regardless. I interpret language as hiding its memetic roots that we all share. Our line is the proto-indo-european roots. You can use language as rough guides to literally determine how we spread out in the world. There is no guarantee in the correct interpretation. But I am cautious of those selected etymologies that dictate what IS ‘true’ when politics, religion and culture all play a role. For this reason I also do not interpret those making dead cultures seem as though they were independent and unrelated to what followed.

Okay, and I see that from your own language that you may be Jewish? (Oy vey!)?

Here is ‘evidence’ of the problem of interpreting the actual roots of language from the Wikipedia’s “Origin of Language”:

The shortage of direct, empirical evidence has caused many scholars to regard the entire topic as unsuitable for serious study; in 1866, the Linguistic Society of Paris banned any existing or future debates on the subject, a prohibition which remained influential across much of the Western world until late in the twentieth century.[1][2] Various hypotheses have been developed about how, why, when, and where language might have emerged.[3] Still, little more has been universally agreed upon today than a hundred years ago, when Charles Darwin’s theory of evolution by natural selection provoked a surge of speculation on the topic.[4] Since the early 1990s, however, a number of linguists, archaeologists, psychologists, anthropologists, and others have attempted to address this issue with new, modern methods.[

I am only intuitively guessing independently of any particular author’s works because I am only expressing this casually. If you’re offended by my interpretations, please don’t. All that I’m getting at is that there ARE etymological roots that exist that have sensible meaning to their original users. That many treat the Egyptians, for instance, as primative believers in multiple gods is intentionally dismissive of how they used language. The reason you get ancient Egypt and Greece be treated as moronic mythological pantheons is because the stage of evolution of civilization adapting to settlements from many distinct nomadic tribes. It is false, for instance, to assume they had multiple gods or worshiped the pharoahs as gods. They were just as rational and moreso with respect to how they cleverly assimilated many cultures contrary to the process of those who think they were idiots.

All words had more meaning than we treat words today. That is, they were not arbitrary in their choice of words for naming people and the apparent extreme ‘religiosity’ was only an accident of their own demise as new cultures replaced them and, like the process of Darwinian selection, the new rulers would eliminate the history they do not approve of that undermines the changed paradigms.

Yes, I agree with the possible link to Isis too. But “El” at the end of words seems likely to refer to a ‘thee (One)’ versus at the begging as simply ‘the one’, like a cardinal description.

Talking about “Isis”, the intentional use of “ISIS” to describe a terrorist organ rather than “ISIL” is a perfect example of how many like to subtly malign those who like to draw an association to Isis, the Egyptian ‘god’ as it is an old term meaning “I am” or “as the same” to which both Jesus and Zeus are similar in meaning. They are all ‘secondary’ level gods or ‘messiahs’ ← from “moses”.

I welcome the other references and may read them. I am not being hardened to my guesses here, only making a point about how religious scriptures hide certain histories, just as the various ‘gnostics’ thought of this. [I just saw an episode of “The Story of God” that had a teacher of Kabulla (spelling?) which showed a similar kind of thinking I am using by reading into the various hidden meanings of words in the Torah. [“Divine Secrets” (S3 E5)] So I cannot be that far off.

Thank you. I’ll watch this.

I found this quote on the same Wikipedia “Origin of Language” that is related:

I cannot doubt that language owes its origin to the imitation and modification, aided by signs and gestures, of various natural sounds, the voices of other animals, and man’s own instinctive cries.

— Charles Darwin, 1871. The Descent of Man, and Selection in Relation to Sex [35]

ROFL No, I am not Jewish. Never have been, but I’ve had many friends in my lifetime who are/were Jewish.

No not moronic- at least I don’t. I do see them as the roots of religions today. Actually, the ancient Egyptian, Mesopotamia, Assyrian, and alike beliefs maybe the root of all religions today, followed by the Hebrews, Greeks, Romans, and ancient Chinese myths. When humans began creating mythologies they were animists, worshipping the sun, volcanos (Moses et al), the moon, etc. Then they began anthropomorphizing the gods, which eventually led to what we see today.

El relates to one deity, but Elohim is more than one deity. Isis, Ra, and El go back to Egyptians and Hebrews worshipping all the gods- Egyptians having Isis and Ra, the Hebrews El and Elohim.

You are very welcome.

I originally thought this but notice that ‘el’ can be either at the end or before. But when it is at the end, most refer to them as gods. “Baal” → “ba -el” or possibly “abba el”? [Father god]

My guess is shared by what others say regarding this:

“Israel” is another.

I don’t know how to get the following into a link the way I’m familiar with. Go to the link to see the list of names of gods. Notice the end is ‘el’ for them. Here is the source:[Theophory in the Bible

Theophory is the practice of embedding the name of a god or a deity in, usually, a proper name.[1] Much Hebrew theophory occurs in the Bible, particularly in the Old Testament. The most prominent theophory involves names referring to:

  • El, a word meaning might , power and (a) god in general, and hence in Judaism, God and among the Canaanites the name of the god who was the father of Baal.
  • Yah, a shortened form of Yahweh.
  • Levantine deities (especially the storm god, Hadad) by the epithet baal , meaning lord . In later times, as the conflict between Yahwism and the more popular pagan practices became increasingly intense, these names were censored and baal was replaced with bosheth , meaning “shame”.

When in front, see [What is the meaning of ‘la’ and ‘el’ in Spanish?..]

Let’s demystify the mystery of El and La in Spanish.

You must be aware of the articles that any language has, for example in English we have the articles - Definite and Indefinite.

The Definite article is denoted by the word “the” and the indefinite articles are “a” and “an”.

In the same manner we have the articles in Spanish. In Spanish the definite article is denoted by “el”and “la” however you must notice that in English there is only one definite articles i.e. “The” while in Spanish there are two i.e. “el” and “la” , why?

Because Spanish differentiates between the genders. The article “el” is used for Masculines whereas the article “la” is used for Feminines. Below are some examples -

El - El hermno (The Brother); El Padre (The Father); El Libro (The Book); El Caballo (The Horse) etc.

La - La Hermana (The Sister); La Madre (The Mother); La Mesa (The Table); La Yegua (The Mare) etc.

Now how do you decide whether to use El or La with any noun? There do exist simple rules to determine that.

Generally the nouns that belong to masculine gender like Father, Brother etc. take the article El. Other than those, generally the nouns that end in letter “o” belong to the masculine category and take the article “El”.

For the “Ashera el” [where I interpeted “Israel” of the northern part of ancient Palestine (the southern was Judea)]:

Asherah , ancient West Semitic goddess, consort of the supreme god. Her principal epithet was probably “She Who Walks on the Sea.” She was occasionally called Elath (Elat), “the Goddess,” and may have also been called Qudshu, “Holiness.” According to texts from Ugarit (modern Ras Shamra, Syria), Asherah’s consort was El, and by him she was the mother of 70 gods. As mother goddess she was widely worshiped throughout Syria and Palestine, although she was frequently paired with Baal, who often took the place of El; as Baal’s consort, Asherah was usually given the name Baalat. Inscriptions from two locations in southern Palestine seem to indicate that she was also worshiped as the consort of Yahweh.

Asherah, detail from an ivory box from Mīnat al-Bayḍāʾ near Ras Shamra (Ugarit), Syria, c. 1300 bc; in the Louvre, Paris.

Asherah, detail from an ivory box from Mīnat al-Bayḍāʾ near Ras Shamra (Ugarit), Syria, c. 1300 BC; in the Louvre, Paris.

Giraudon/Art Resource, New York

The word asherah in the Old Testament was used not only in reference to the goddess herself but also to a wooden cult object associated with her worship.

Britannica, The Editors of Encyclopaedia. “Asherah”. Encyclopedia Britannica, 16 Feb. 2018, Asherah | Semitic goddess | Britannica. Accessed 26 October 2021.

Still looking for the video, but did run across this second account that confirms the male chimp behavior during rainstorms and at waterfalls, albeit in a slightly different context. But still it suggests a deeper inquiry about natural phenomena and a ritual display to some Unseen Agency.

It is easy to see an aggressive “raindance” during a thunderstorm as a defensive display to an unknown power.

Waterfall Displays

Chimpanzees at Gombe National Park in Tanzania often become animated during rainstorms and around waterfalls. Our videographer, Bill Wallauer , answered a letter inquiring about this behaviour and we share his observations and thoughts below.

In my time at Gombe I witnessed an average of two to three waterfall displays and rain dances per year. They ranged from single individual solitary events to a single individual participant within a social group, to multiple participant events.

The displays I witnessed were performed by males of all age groups. Rarely have I seen adolescents or infants displaying in and around adult males, but it does occasionally happen. The displays are prolonged, lasting as long as five minutes, sometimes more. Aggression is occasionally an element of the display, but usually the event continues long after the subordinates have moved away.

My feeling is that dominance plays a secondary role (if any) in most of this type of display. Rain dances are performed more often toward the beginning of the rainy season. I do not have a sense of seasonality in relation to waterfall displays.

During rain dance displays, lightning and thunder often, perhaps usually, precede and accompany the downpour. If you have experienced a storm in which the hair stands up on the back of your neck and you can feel or smell the electricity in the air, you can almost be certain that the chimps would display if they were there. In other words, the behaviour is predictable under some circumstances.

And then there is this strange fascination with snakes!

An excellent example of a respect and intense curiosity of chimpanzees to an animate object is in their reaction to snakes, particularly pythons. Pythons could pose a threat to young chimpanzees, but it is not likely that any snake would take on an adult. However, when a single individual or group of chimpanzees encounters a python (even a small one), the reaction is remarkable. One would expect the chimps to issue alarm calls to warn others and as an expression of their fear, but then to move well out of harms way as soon as possible.

Predictably, the chimpanzees do issue a specific vocalization called a snake wraa , but when it is uttered, the group often draws near, to stare at the snake. Some climb above if possible for a better look. Typical facial expressions are those of fear and curiosity. Physical reassurance contact is often made (especially mutual embracing), and eye contact among individuals is frequent. After tens of minutes, members finally begin to disperse.

Some individuals however, show exaggerated, prolonged interest. They will call repeatedly, even after other individuals have moved well away. I’ve seen chimpanzees stare and call for as long as 30 minutes.

It is difficult to explain why chimpanzees react to pythons in this way. It appears to be much more than keeping a close eye on a possible threat, as many species do. It also seems a great waste of energy and time. If pythons are dangerous, it would make much more sense to alarm call and move away as quickly as possible.

https://www.janegoodall.org.uk/chimpanzees/chimpanzee-central/15-chimpanzees/chimpanzee-central/24-waterfall-displays

Could this have any relationship with the biblical snake in the garden of Eden?

What do chimp ‘temples’ tell us about the evolution of religion?


See this stone? I’m going to make a really loud noise with it

This week, my half-whimsical dream almost came true. Biologists working in the Republic of Guinea found evidence for what seemed to be a “sacred tree” used by chimps, perhaps for some sort of ritual.

Laura Kehoe of the Humboldt University of Berlin, Germany, set up camera traps by trees marked with unusual scratches. What she found gave her goosebumps: chimps were placing stones in the hollow of trees, and bashing trees with rocks.

Sign or symbol

The behaviour could be a means of communication, since rocks make a loud bang when they hit hollow trees. Or it could be more symbolic?

How about an imitation of ability to create thunder and be feared?

“Maybe we found the first evidence of chimpanzees creating a kind of shrine that could indicate sacred trees,” Kehoe wrote on her blog.

Of course it’s not proof that chimps believe in any kind of god, as the Daily Mail would have it, but it is the latest evidence of their extraordinarily rich behaviour.

Still looking for the male swinging his stick at the heavens in a clear gesture of defiance.

El is still singlar for god in Hebrew and Israel is still Is[is] Ra El

The “el” in Spanish is totally different and not related. It means “the”, not a deity like in Hebrew. You’re stretching it.

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Thanks very much for this answer.

All this put a question about the separation between man and some animals.

If viewed from an evolutionary perspective, this type of dawning belief systems in primitive minds seems very natural.

The God of thunder, Thor is one of the oldest Gods on record and it is perfectly logical to expect that the earliest sentient hominids would attribute a thunderstorm to an “unseen but angry causal force in the sky”.

Later there were offerings and prayers to appease the angry God of Thunder and the fact that thunderstorms usually don’t last that long would be attributed to the power of prayer and sacrifice.

The rest of religious history are just variations on a theme. It bears mentioning that the good and benign gods of life and fertility all dwell in the sky, with the sun and the stars, whereas the bad and destructive gods live deep in the ground with fire (volcanos) and great floods (tsunamis), caused by tremors in the ground.

Today we have scientific explanations for all these natural phenomena, but what is an evolving sentient mind that is just beginning to associate cause and effect to think when subjected to these tremendous unexplainable forces?