CC, you’re in Nietzsche shoes…Oh god, no, no not that. :ahhh: As a pure novice, my impression is Nietzsche spent way too much time bellybutton gazing, not that he didn't have some good points. :-/ Me I'm hooked on understanding this planet and my time here. And though the global warming reality is a big downer and most of my internet presence I am fully engage in all the joyful stuff too]. :coolsmile: Maybe that's why I'm so passionate, I appreciate the stakes we are gambling away. =========== Oh about the global warming thing, to be succinct. :) We ARE increasing our planet's atmospheric insulation layer, it IS heating up our planet, and that Will disrupt all of the geophysical systems we have come to know and love… and depend on. :cheese: Hey CC... sorry ;) Didn't mean to freak you like that :) I look forward to learning more about the issue...
CC
Don’t give up now, the problems with getting the average person to take climate change as a serious problem are not just that you are stepping on some major economic toes, but also that it does not have an immediate serious everyday impact on most people.
Many people are dealing with much more immediate problems such as financing our children’s education, caring for our parents, finding a job that pays enough to support our families, etc.
One thing have noticed is that many of the people who are pushing for action in this area are major abusers themselves, whether they have purchase a home in low lying areas subject to flooding, living in areas that have been known to be deserts for centuries, have a separate car (and sometimes more than one) for each person in the family, RVs, and boats for recreational uses, fly all over the world for recreation. When the everyday people see this you can’t expect them to support the sacrifices necessary to get climate change under control easily. It takes much work by many people to convince the vast majority to support the necessary actions to limit this problem. Also it seems that we can’t stop climate change totally so we must find ways to adopt as well as take remedial actins. It is going to be a long term process to do this. Hang in there.
Garythehuman wrote:
Many people are dealing with much more immediate problems such as financing our children’s education, caring for our parents, finding a job that pays enough to support our families, etc.
—Just as many people were rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
Lois
Hey, I bet those deck chairs looked really pretty when they were rearranged, and even as they floated away. :lol:
Occam
Garythehuman wrote: Many people are dealing with much more immediate problems such as financing our children’s education, caring for our parents, finding a job that pays enough to support our families, etc. ---Just as many people were rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. LoisSo family matters, financial problems etc. don't count. Must be nice to be not to have to worry about those things.
Garythehuman wrote: Many people are dealing with much more immediate problems such as financing our children’s education, caring for our parents, finding a job that pays enough to support our families, etc. ---Just as many people were rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. LoisSo family matters, financial problems etc. don't count. Must be nice to be not to have to worry about those things. They matter but so does the state of the world. You won't have a family or financial matters to take up your time if our environment collapses. Must be nice to not have to worry about larger issues, Lois
C’mon. Gary is just explaining the situation exactly like it is. Don’t kill the messenger.
Gary is 100% right.
People are trying to survive in this world right at their own Dining Room tables.
You expect most people to make sense of, or give credence to this massive inundation of information and conflicting reports?
They never have and they never will. And they shouldn’t have to.
The common person is being pulled from both sides by political and social interests.
People just want to eat. That’s all.
C'mon. Gary is just explaining the situation exactly like it is. Don't kill the messenger. Gary is 100% right. People are trying to survive in this world right at their own Dining Room tables. You expect most people to make sense of, or give credence to this massive inundation of information and conflicting reports? They never have and they never will. And they shouldn't have to. The common person is being pulled from both sides by political and social interests. People just want to eat. That's all.Lois does have a point, everything everyone is working so hard for right now will be completely moot if the overall systems, both social and ecological, that we depend on collapse from destructive behaviour. People are basically being asked to work against their own interests by constantly being pressured into supporting unsustainable consumerism. Collectively we're being asked to behave in a certain fashion that has a definite and looming end point and the way out of the trap is to equally work collectively to change these patterns.
Lois does have a point, everything everyone is working so hard for right now will be completely moot if the overall systems, both social and ecological, that we depend on collapse from destructive behaviour. People are basically being asked to work against their own interests by constantly being pressured into supporting unsustainable consumerism. Collectively we're being asked to behave in a certain fashion that has a definite and looming end point and the way out of the trap is to equally work collectively to change these patterns.Yeah I see that. But first and foremost I am for the PEOPLE. You say collectively we are being asked... No, collectively we are going down the stream. To go down the stream, you jump on the raft with everyone else and start paddling. Some paddle harder, some paddle smarter. Some paddle for the left fork, some paddle for the right fork. Some people don't paddle they are just along for the ride. There isn't enough room for everyone to paddle anyways. And yes that's your "collectively" part. The stream only flows downhill. And people fight for the paddles. Now how can you blame the people who aren't paddling? Not everyone can paddle. Maybe they are indifferent which way the raft goes. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Especially when they can't understand why some of the people are grabbing and fighting for paddles. When people are pushing some people off the raft. Others are screaming why they want to paddle left and others are screaming why they want to paddle right. And the people without paddles can't make sense of it. Most people just want to stay on the raft. That's all. And there isn't a dang thing wrong with that.
Lois does have a point, everything everyone is working so hard for right now will be completely moot if the overall systems, both social and ecological, that we depend on collapse from destructive behaviour. People are basically being asked to work against their own interests by constantly being pressured into supporting unsustainable consumerism. Collectively we're being asked to behave in a certain fashion that has a definite and looming end point and the way out of the trap is to equally work collectively to change these patterns.Yeah I see that. But first and foremost I am for the PEOPLE. You say collectively we are being asked... No, collectively we are going down the stream. To go down the stream, you jump on the raft with everyone else and start paddling. Some paddle harder, some paddle smarter. Some paddle for the left fork, some paddle for the right fork. Some people don't paddle they are just along for the ride. There isn't enough room for everyone to paddle anyways. And yes that's your "collectively" part. The stream only flows downhill. And people fight for the paddles. Now how can you blame the people who aren't paddling? Not everyone can paddle. Maybe they are indifferent which way the raft goes. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Especially when they can't understand why some of the people are grabbing and fighting for paddles. When people are pushing some people off the raft. Others are screaming why they want to paddle left and others are screaming why they want to paddle right. And the people without paddles can't make sense of it. Most people just want to stay on the raft. That's all. And there isn't a dang thing wrong with that. I'm not sure I get that. Time is flowing(or appears to) but we're not obligated to join into a mad rush to self-extinction which is almost certainly what we're all engaged in in a collective sense right now. The biosphere simply can not take 7 billion people trying to assert a level of consumption that isn't sustainable. Certainly there is competition within our societies, but if that is the main driver of society and the result is the end of the conditions that allow us to exist then what's the point. No other species has the abilities of communication or reason that we have evolved, which gives us great power but also comes with a significant collective and personal responsibility. In that sense we aren't just in the boat of your metaphor, we're also the stream and if the current course is leading off a high waterfall onto sharp rocks, then isn't the best option to change the course of the stream.
I'm not sure I get that.I really thought you would have.
Time is flowing(or appears to) but we're not obligated to join into a mad rush to self-extinction which is almost certainly what we're all engaged in in a collective sense right now. The biosphere simply can not take 7 billion people trying to assert a level of consumption that isn't sustainable.The stream is just life. You get on the raft when you're born. Most people are acutely aware of their mortality. Hint.
Certainly there is competition within our societies, but if that is the main driver of society and the result is the end of the conditions that allow us to exist then what's the point.This is where your idealism crashes against the hard wall of reality. Competition is a broad concept which can generally cover a whole range of human behavioral forces. Pair bonding, shelter and food basically.
No other species has the abilities of communication or reason that we have evolved, which gives us great power but also comes with a significant collective and personal responsibility. In that sense we aren't just in the boat of your metaphor, we're also the stream and if the current course is leading off a high waterfall onto sharp rocks, then isn't the best option to change the course of the stream.People are trying to change the course of the raft. Everyone eventually has to get off the raft anyways. The raft ride doesn't last forever. So what's the point? Some people think they are getting on another raft, some people don't. Earth is the raft. I get it personally. I was aware of the poisoning of the planet when I was 10 years old. That was me. I just instinctively felt it. I still do today. I didn't understand human nature until much later. You can't sit there and cry because not everyone is on the same page as you. You just can't. I'm not saying that things won't turn around. I'm not being fatalistic. I'm just saying don't blame everyone for not caring or believing or not trying to change things. Gary is right. I know how you feel about economic issues. I feel the same way. How do you expect everyone to care about Global warming or whales when you know how they are being squeezed? C'mon. Lot's of people have come to the conclusion that this is an unfair, cruel world. You can either subscribe to the maxim that it's the leaders fault. -or- We get the leaders we deserve. The leaders who reflect us as a people. Because the raft has leaders.
I'm not sure I get that.I really thought you would have.
Time is flowing(or appears to) but we're not obligated to join into a mad rush to self-extinction which is almost certainly what we're all engaged in in a collective sense right now. The biosphere simply can not take 7 billion people trying to assert a level of consumption that isn't sustainable.The stream is just life. You get on the raft when you're born. Most people are acutely aware of their mortality. Hint.
Certainly there is competition within our societies, but if that is the main driver of society and the result is the end of the conditions that allow us to exist then what's the point.This is where your idealism crashes against the hard wall of reality. Competition is a broad concept which can generally cover a whole range of human behavioral forces. Pair bonding, shelter and food basically.
No other species has the abilities of communication or reason that we have evolved, which gives us great power but also comes with a significant collective and personal responsibility. In that sense we aren't just in the boat of your metaphor, we're also the stream and if the current course is leading off a high waterfall onto sharp rocks, then isn't the best option to change the course of the stream.People are trying to change the course of the raft. Everyone eventually has to get off the raft anyways. The raft ride doesn't last forever. So what's the point? Some people think they are getting on another raft, some people don't. Earth is the raft. I get it personally. I was aware of the poisoning of the planet when I was 10 years old. That was me. I just instinctively felt it. I still do today. I didn't understand human nature until much later. You can't sit there and cry because not everyone is on the same page as you. You just can't. I'm not saying that things won't turn around. I'm not being fatalistic. I'm just saying don't blame everyone for not caring or believing or not trying to change things. Gary is right. I know how you feel about economic issues. I feel the same way. How do you expect everyone to care about Global warming or whales when you know how they are being squeezed? C'mon. Lot's of people have come to the conclusion that this is an unfair, cruel world. You can either subscribe to the maxim that it's the leaders fault. -or- We get the leaders we deserve. The leaders who reflect us as a people. Because the raft has leaders. It's not about blaming anyone, it's about pointing out the fact we're all responsible, claiming immediate expediency doesn't change that. And it basically comes down to the evolutionary drive to replace ourselves that most people have and that probably underlies almost everything people do. But as I've said, what's the point if in the constant drive of people to continue their genes we're destroying the environment where those genes have any context?
I'm not sure I get that.I really thought you would have.
Time is flowing(or appears to) but we're not obligated to join into a mad rush to self-extinction which is almost certainly what we're all engaged in in a collective sense right now. The biosphere simply can not take 7 billion people trying to assert a level of consumption that isn't sustainable.The stream is just life. You get on the raft when you're born. Most people are acutely aware of their mortality. Hint.
Certainly there is competition within our societies, but if that is the main driver of society and the result is the end of the conditions that allow us to exist then what's the point.This is where your idealism crashes against the hard wall of reality. Competition is a broad concept which can generally cover a whole range of human behavioral forces. Pair bonding, shelter and food basically.
No other species has the abilities of communication or reason that we have evolved, which gives us great power but also comes with a significant collective and personal responsibility. In that sense we aren't just in the boat of your metaphor, we're also the stream and if the current course is leading off a high waterfall onto sharp rocks, then isn't the best option to change the course of the stream.People are trying to change the course of the raft. Everyone eventually has to get off the raft anyways. The raft ride doesn't last forever. So what's the point? Some people think they are getting on another raft, some people don't. Earth is the raft. I get it personally. I was aware of the poisoning of the planet when I was 10 years old. That was me. I just instinctively felt it. I still do today. I didn't understand human nature until much later. You can't sit there and cry because not everyone is on the same page as you. You just can't. I'm not saying that things won't turn around. I'm not being fatalistic. I'm just saying don't blame everyone for not caring or believing or not trying to change things. Gary is right. I know how you feel about economic issues. I feel the same way. How do you expect everyone to care about Global warming or whales when you know how they are being squeezed? C'mon. Lot's of people have come to the conclusion that this is an unfair, cruel world. You can either subscribe to the maxim that it's the leaders fault. -or- We get the leaders we deserve. The leaders who reflect us as a people. Because the raft has leaders. It's not about blaming anyone, it's about pointing out the fact we're all responsible, claiming immediate expediency doesn't change that. And it basically comes down to the evolutionary drive to replace ourselves that most people have and that probably underlies almost everything people do. But as I've said, what's the point if in the constant drive of people to continue their genes we're destroying the environment where those genes have any context? If there's money to be made, who cares about the environment? Lois
And it basically comes down to the evolutionary drive to replace ourselves that most people have and that probably underlies almost everything people do. But as I've said, what's the point if in the constant drive of people to continue their genes we're destroying the environment where those genes have any context?Right, exactly what is the point? People can't see the forest for the trees. Plus people are looking at different forests/trees anyways. Lot's of allegory here. I'm fine with it. I don't know what else to say...It is what it is.(and NO, that's not in Cop-out fashion, that's really the case.)
Right, exactly what is the point? People can't see the forest for the trees. Plus people are looking at different forests/trees anyways. Lot's of allegory here. I'm fine with it. I don't know what else to say...It is what it is.(and NO, that's not in Cop-out fashion, that's really the case.)The point in constantly informing people of the physical results of doing certain things is so they do have the best information to make the best collective choices, which is the subject of this thread. Do we give up and allow continuing ecological devastation because it interferes with some people's pretending everything is "normal". The central fact is that most people do need to be shocked out of their complacency if we do want any kind of future on any basis.
You can either subscribe to the maxim that it’s the leaders fault. -or- We get the leaders we deserve. The leaders who reflect us as a people. Because the raft has leaders.And here Vy, is the crux of the argument. Liked your raft analogy BTW. We can, all of us fist pump and blame but until we get into the fight and I mean the political arena by: voting, letter writing, speaking, actually running for a political office, debating using facts to back our contentions, and supporting organizations specifically designed to fight corporations and PACS then eventually the raft will be inundated and sink and I'm not about to let that happen when everyone I care about is on there with me. And remember that when we have to leave it the others will still be along for the ride. Someone's got to pick up the paddle and carry on when you drop it. So why not lead by example? Cap't Jack
And here Vy, is the crux of the argument. Liked your raft analogy BTW. We can, all of us fist pump and blame but until we get into the fight and I mean the political arena by: voting, letter writing, speaking, actually running for a political office, debating using facts to back our contentions, and supporting organizations specifically designed to fight corporations and PACS then eventually the raft will be inundated and sink and I'm not about to let that happen when everyone I care about is on there with me. And remember that when we have to leave it the others will still be along for the ride. Someone's got to pick up the paddle and carry on when you drop it. So why not lead by example? Cap't JackVery well said.
So why not lead by example? Cap't JackWho? I know you weren't directing that at me. So who should lead by example. An "arbitrary everyone"?
No, not at you personally. But you could use the appellation of “Everyman” if you wish because I meant that ALL of us are in the same boat, uh raft here. those who scream “there outa be a law” yet do nothing about it themselves aren’t helping to navigate the raft to safer waters. My post was meant as a challenge to everyone to involve themselves in this effort to for want of a better phrase, save ourselves and our fellow species via the methods I listed. We’re only powerless if we allow ourselves the luxury of apathy.
Cap’t Jack
No, not at you personally. But you could use the appellation of "Everyman" if you wish because I meant that ALL of us are in the same boat, uh raft here. those who scream "there outa be a law" yet do nothing about it themselves aren't helping to navigate the raft to safer waters. My post was meant as a challenge to everyone to involve themselves in this effort to for want of a better phrase, save ourselves and our fellow species via the methods I listed. We're only powerless if we allow ourselves the luxury of apathy. Cap't JackI know VA. I just jumped in here to say that Gary The Human was right. We can try to educate people, but if they don't want to listen for whatever reason then what? Like Gary said, "People have more pressing issues." And rightly so.