Moses identified as Crown Prince Tuthmosis

My conclusion, from the information below:

  1. Manetho: Moses rebelled against Amenophis who had a famous scribe of the same name (Amenhtep III = A3).
  2. Artapanus: Moses was the only heir to the throne, i.e. Crown Prince (CP) Tuthmosis.
  3. Artapanus: Moses was involved in the first burial ceremony of the Apis bull, as was CP Tuthmosis.
  4. Manetho: Moses sent messengers to the Hyksos kings of Jerusalem, summoning them to come to his aid in his war against A3. El Arish Shrine Text: it was the king’s son who sent the messengers to the Asiatics in their land (also mentions 9 days of darkness, etc). The Story of Joseph and Asenath: the same narrative, but from the Israeli side. They describe how the Egyptian king’s eldest son (i.e. CP Tuthmosis) twice sent messengers to them, summoning them to come to his aid in his war against his father. As in the previous two accounts, they complied and invaded Egypt.
    Don’t you think there is a possibility that Moses could have been CP Tuthmosis, based purely on this information?

When I try to google Moses and Tuthmosis, I get hits on your work, and some blogs. What are your sources?

The sources are all listed in my book (Bibliography 202, 1169 references). This is where it gets a bit tricky - I do not want to convince you to buy the book - you’ll just have to trust me that the information is well referenced.

PS: Bed-time in South Africa. I’ll post the references here tomorrow.

The good date we have in stone for Moses is 1259. The year Egypt sued the Hittites for peace, so it was a year or two after the fall of Hittite Empire that Abraham came to agreement with Ramses II and moved into the Canaan from 40 years in the desert.
That would put the exodus around 1302.
Another point is that the timeline of the Hyksos having come to the Middle Kingdom is around 1700. Then leaving around 1500 because of a plague of leprosy.
You might keep up with the latest finding on Avaris, the capital of the Hyksos’s Middle Kingdom.
Also, six months ago China changed their history and is now floating the idea that they are the Hyksos who left Egypt. So, I would be looking for China to be answering you puzzle. I bet they will find the Port of Perunefer. That would answer a lot of the questions.

When I try to google Moses and Tuthmosis, I get hits on your work, and some blogs. What are your sources?
1. Josephus: Against Apion 1.26 (227-251) 2. Correction - not Artapanus but Josephus: Antiquities 2.9.7 (232-237) 3. Artapanus, from Eusebius – Praeparatio Evangelica (Gifford), 9.27, “…having given the name Apis to a bull, commanded the troops to found a temple for him, and bade them bring and bury there the animals which had been consecrated by Moses, because he wished to bury the inventions of Moses in oblivion" CP Tuthmosis: Amarna Sunset (Dodson), pp. 4, 15 4. Manetho: Josephus Against Apion 1.26 (241) El Arish Shrine Text: Francis Llewellyn Griffith and Édouard Naville, The Mound of the Jew and the City of Onias, London: Kegan Paul, Trentch, Trubner & Co., 1887, pp. 71-73 The Story of Joseph and Asenath (see Mark Goodacre's translation, XXIII, XXIV) Incidentally, according to Manetho, Amenhotep III confronted the armies of Moses and the invaders, but the decided to retreat into Ethiopia for a period of 13 years. Amenhotep’s prolonged stay in Ethiopia is attested to by scarabs of him found in that country [Amenhotep III – Perspectives on his Reign (O’Connor), pp. 11-12], rock carvings at Soleb depicting him as weak and sickly (effectively proving that he was in Ethiopia at that time) and numerous of his monuments being scattered all over the country[A History of Ancient Egypt (Grimal), pp. 223-225]. Furthermore, we have three accounts of the Egyptian army 'disappearing' - in the Bible it was supposedly drowned in the sea, in the El Arish text king Shu and his army 'departed to heaven', and Manetho's account reveals the actual event - Amenhotep and his army had retreated into Ethiopia.
The good date we have in stone for Moses is 1259. .
Where are your sources for this? Has Moses as an individual been identified? You did not reply to my original post - is there something wrong with my arguments?

Flavius Josephus, could have guessed that. You are reading things like Artapanus and taking them as if they are scholarly works by modern historians. They are source documents from history, written centuries after the events they presume to be discussing, with no basis for their accuracy. They say more about the authors and their time than they do about any actual events in history.

Could they independently have dreamt up the same story, from different perspectives? Do you think Josephus deliberately lied about Manetho’s version of events? And the El Arish Shrine Text - did Josephus or Artapanus carve out these hieroglyphics? You claim that there is no basis for their accuracy - what proof do you have for this? I have just demonstrated that regarding some key events, there probably is.
By the way, Josephus had access to much older works, now lost. His information would have been much more accurate than what modern scholars have to try to piece together today.

Okay, that last statement is completely illogical. You are giving him credit simply for being alive in an earlier time. If the works are “now lost” you can’t evaluate them. If you have something from the actual time of the events, there is a higher probability it will be “more accurate”, but they still have to be considered in context. But you don’t have those, so it doesn’t matter.
Manetho claims a sacred book written by the god Hermes as a source. El-Arish is dated a 1000 years after Moses. I can’t read hieroglyphics but I wouldn’t go to you or any of these authors you are using for help, because you haven’t established credibility with me. You haven’t shown that you know how to demonstrate historical truth.
Sorry. I see you have put a lot of work into this, but at best, you have a History channel documentary here. One that scholars would dismiss.

Okay, that last statement is completely illogical. You are giving him credit simply for being alive in an earlier time. If the works are "now lost" you can't evaluate them. If you have something from the actual time of the events, there is a higher probability it will be "more accurate", but they still have to be considered in context. But you don't have those, so it doesn't matter. Manetho claims a sacred book written by the god Hermes as a source. El-Arish is dated a 1000 years after Moses. I can't read hieroglyphics but I wouldn't go to you or any of these authors you are using for help, because you haven't established credibility with me. You haven't shown that you know how to demonstrate historical truth. Sorry. I see you have put a lot of work into this, but at best, you have a History channel documentary here. One that scholars would dismiss.
What has become of common sense and logic? Let's leave it at that.

We obviously have different ideas about what those words mean, so where we are currently “at” is not understanding each other. You initiated this conversation by acknowledging that your ideas are not accepted by scholars. I don’t think I’ve said anything worse than that. There are cases where non-scholars have found things that were eventually accepted in the consensus, so your life’s work is up to you.
There may be other ways to view the value of what you’ve done. As a Christian, I studied the Bible. When I realized I was going about it all wrong, and that belief was part of the problem, I didn’t completely walk away from all that I’d discovered. Instead I look at the Bible as mythology. It’s not a popular idea, but it’s my thing.
http://www.milepost100.com

I appreciate your work Riaan. At the very least you seem to be making an honest effort to understand things versus the usual Christian who just takes what they’ve been told. The problem however with any thing like this is that the source information is so completely unreliable as to be almost useless. Or at best it gives a slightly greater that 50% chance of being accurate. Even if three people tell the same exact story doesn’t mean much. Think of reporting today. Given some event, you can watch a news story on TV, read about it online, in a printed magazine, etc. and get different accounts. And that’s with people having access to video, modern technology, etc. No matter what there’s always the telephone effect. And now go back several thousand years…the effect is magnified a hundred fold. Point being, only a sliver of truth is likely in any historical documents from that time period.

The good date we have in stone for Moses is 1259. .
Where are your sources for this? Has Moses as an individual been identified? You did not reply to my original post - is there something wrong with my arguments? Nothing wrong with your original post. I just don’t know anything about the people you are talking about. I like history. As far as Moses in 1259. They have the records of Egypt suing the Hittites for peace. The battle itself is taught at West Point. A military school in the USA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian–Hittite_peace_treaty My understanding is that the all the Egyptian pharaohs had a title of Moses. It was a title and not a name. It means “to bring forth". Different pharaohs brought forth different items, like goodness, happiness, you get the idea. The guy that “brought forth people from Egypt" I don’t think we know his name. It is my understanding that the Egyptians were fighting over the olive orchards in Syria, in the area of the Egyptian port of bible. And Moses wanted to go to Israel because of the olive trees. The Hyksos had brought with them the hybrid olive and the technology of grafting. Olive oil was a changing factor in the lives of all the people and changed the wealth of countries. Trouble was that the olive trees did not grow in climate of Egypt as we know Egypt today.

The identification of CP Tuthmosis is not based only on the references I gave above.

  1. Ahmed Osman argued that the biblical Joesph and Yuya, who served A3, were one and the same person. The main objection to this? His daughter Tiye, A3’s Great Royal Wife for 37 years, is not mentioned in the Bible. The Story of Joseph and Asenath again provides this confirmation: Joseph and Asenath ‘ruled Egypt’ for 48 years. A queen related to Joseph therefore ruled Egypt for 4 to 5 decades. Furthermore, Manetho recorded that Joseph and Moses were contemporaries and Justin that Moses was Joseph’s son. CP Tuthmosis was Yuya’s grandson, and not his son, but was also a contemporary of his grandfather.
    
  2. David Rohl identified the biblical Saul and David as the Amarna contemporaries Labayu and Dadua, but unfortunately attempted to use this information to move the well-attested Amarna era much later in time to ca. 1000 BCE, generally assumed to be the era of Israel’s United Kingdom. However, if you move Saul and David (and, therefore, Solomon) earlier in time, to the Amarna era, a whole new scenario develops. Scholars seem to universally agree that the land of Sheba, from where the Queen of Sheba came, was located at Marib in Yemen. Would this queen and her entourage and army etc really have travelled 4000 km to Jerusalem and back, an arduous journey over a rugged and arid terrain, just to pop a few questions to Solomon? It borders on stupidity to believe that.
    By contrast, Josephus calls het the Queen of Egypt and Ethiopia. Should we once again (as you do) write this episode in the Bible off as pure legend? In this case, we can’t. The Megiddo Ivory] depicts an Egyptian queen with an Amarna style crown visiting a Canaanite king on a throne, resembling Solomon’s. Many aspects of this late Bronze Age (i.e. the Amarna era) carved image match details of the History of the Queen of Sheba, which I suppose you would also describe as an invention. The narrative of the History of the Queen of Sheba in turn matches many aspects of Manetho’s account of the revolt against A3.
    As related above, Moses as the king’s eldest son sent messengers to the Hyksos rulers in Jerusalem. Likewise, messengers were sent back and forth between Solomon and his Queen, before she eventually came. One can imagine that they would never have dared attack the mightiest army in the region, that of Egypt, without receiving proper assurances that it would be safe to do so. A person called Sheba was David’s fiercest enemy and it would seem that Bathsheba, his daughter, sent her infant girl (who was of Hittite and Hebrew blood) to Yuya in Egypt for protection against David – see the History of the Queen of Sheba.
    A scene from the Amarna tomb of Ay is described as follows:
    “ We have already noticed that each great house, whether royal or private, seemed to possess a band of female musicians. As the women shown here are all busily engaged in the practice of music and dancing, and the walls both of the hall and the closets are hung with musical instruments of all kinds, we must conclude that this was a prominent part of the duties or recreations of the women of the house. The instruments include the lyre, the lute, the triangular harp, and the standing harp and lyre. It will be noticed that the women in the upper room of both houses have a peculiar mode of wearing the hair, by dividing it into one or more tresses curling at the ends . Nor is this mere négligé, for the women in the rooms below wear the hair in an ordinary Egyptian mode. This lock or tress is quite un-Egyptian, but is familiar to us in men (and women) of Hittite race and known also in Syrian women."
    The queen on the Megiddo ivory is accompanied by a Hittite lyrist, and in the so-called Zannanza affair, a recently widowed Egyptian queen (Nefertiti, Reeves) wrote to the king of the Hittites, asking him for a son to become her husband and king of Egypt, as she had no sons of her own and she would not marry a servant, i.e. an Egyptian. The only female queen of Egypt who could ever have found herself in circumstances that would allow such a request was Nefertiti.
    Nefertiti, therefore, clearly had a connection to the Hittites.

The Bible is a religious tract not a historical document, trying to “prove” any part of it is highly problematic. It was created for short term religious purposes not to accurately record events from that time.
Even the existence of someone much more prominent in the religious world like Jesus Christ is proving very difficult, the further back researchers go the less evidence there is he even existed.
So basically what we’re dealing with here is mythological figures that have been literalized for religious and political reasons.
Would you begin a search for the literal origins of Zeus or Odin, doing so with Moses is approaching that scale. Trying to turn the metaphorical into the literal produces meaningless results and anyone who understands what religion actual is understands it is almost entirely metaphorical in nature.

welcome back Riann

The Bible is a religious tract not a historical document, trying to "prove" any part of it is highly problematic. It was created for short term religious purposes not to accurately record events from that time. Even the existence of someone much more prominent in the religious world like Jesus Christ is proving very difficult, the further back researchers go the less evidence there is he even existed. So basically what we're dealing with here is mythological figures that have been literalized for religious and political reasons. Would you begin a search for the literal origins of Zeus or Odin, doing so with Moses is approaching that scale. Trying to turn the metaphorical into the literal produces meaningless results and anyone who understands what religion actual is understands it is almost entirely metaphorical in nature.
It would be an almighty big coincidence for all of the myths to independently tell the same story. The Megiddo ivory is very real and can't be argued away. How would you interpret the scene on the ivory? Amenhotep III did spend a very long time in Nubia (why?) and probably died there. Your opinion that all biblical figures are mythological figures is just that - your opinion. And you'll stick to that belief no matter what evidence to the contrary might surface. As far as Jesus Christ is concerned, I am convinced that there are enough references to real people, like for instance Gaius Vibius Pansa, a Roman consul, to prove that a person that became known as Christ did exist. The Romans believed that Christ's father was a Roman soldier called Pandira, and also that he was 'of the Treasury'. In my book Barbelo I argue that Christ was born to Joseph, Herod's treasurer, and Mariamne I, Herod's second wife. Joseph was also known as the Old Man (Sabbas) and reference is made to a Joseph barsabas of the Flat Feet. Joseph, the son of (bar) the Old Man, of the Flat Feet. I could not find any information about the Flat Feet, until I read a bit about Cicero's Pro Ligario speech, in which he defended a Roman soldier called Ligarius before Caesar. The Roman consul Gaius Vibius Pansa was also involved. I had by then developed a habit of trying to translate, to satisfy my own curiosity, all interesting-looking Latin words I came across (I had Latin for 5 years at school and loved every bit of it). It turns out that Pansa means 'having broad flat feet', no less, and it is one of the tenses of pando, pandere. The word Ligarius has no direct translation, but again, by an almighty coincidence, the Latin word Lignarius means 'a carpenter'. So, here we have in a single context the Flat Feet, a Roman soldier called Pandira (Pandere) and a carpenter (the NT relates that Joseph was a carpenter). Joseph and his friend Sohemus were supposed to guard Mariamne during Herod's absence, but on on occasion he discovered that Joseph and Sohemus must have had intimate conversations with Mariamne, and had Sohemus promptly executed. It would seem that Joseph (sabas) 'of the Flat Feet' had some relationship with the Roman consul, perhaps having married his daughter, and Herod dared not touch him. As I point out in my book Barbelo, there are many stories about Christ and his disciples that point to conclusions that scholars simply seem to be unable to reach. For instance, the fact that the physical descriptions of Christ and Paul match to a T. And the sayings and deeds of Christ and Simon Magus are identical. Can't they connect the dots? It is the very controversy that this information seems to be pointing at, that convinces me that a person called Jesus Christ did exist, but that he was anything but the Son of God.
The Bible is a religious tract not a historical document, trying to "prove" any part of it is highly problematic. It was created for short term religious purposes not to accurately record events from that time. Even the existence of someone much more prominent in the religious world like Jesus Christ is proving very difficult, the further back researchers go the less evidence there is he even existed. So basically what we're dealing with here is mythological figures that have been literalized for religious and political reasons. Would you begin a search for the literal origins of Zeus or Odin, doing so with Moses is approaching that scale. Trying to turn the metaphorical into the literal produces meaningless results and anyone who understands what religion actual is understands it is almost entirely metaphorical in nature.
It would be an almighty big coincidence for all of the myths to independently tell the same story. The Megiddo ivory is very real and can't be argued away. How would you interpret the scene on the ivory? Amenhotep III did spend a very long time in Nubia (why?) and probably died there. Your opinion that all biblical figures are mythological figures is just that - your opinion. And you'll stick to that belief no matter what evidence to the contrary might surface. I grew up a Christian and for a time I was a fundamentalist Christian which means I accepted the Bible literally. My tendency therefore would be to take what the Bible says literally, it is facts that now inform me of what is most likely. And that includes whether figures presented in what were intended from the start to be metaphorical texts actually existed. Are we going to look for Adam in the past or Noah or even Solomon. Just because someone is recorded to have been present in a religious context doesn't mean they in fact had a physical presence on Earth.
As far as Jesus Christ is concerned, I am convinced that there are enough references to real people, like for instance Gaius Vibius Pansa, a Roman consul, to prove that a person that became known as Christ did exist. The Romans believed that Christ's father was a Roman soldier called Pandira, and also that he was 'of the Treasury'. In my book Barbelo I argue that Christ was born to Joseph, Herod's treasurer, and Mariamne I, Herod's second wife. Joseph was also known as the Old Man (Sabbas) and reference is made to a Joseph barsabas of the Flat Feet. Joseph, the son of (bar) the Old Man, of the Flat Feet. I could not find any information about the Flat Feet, until I read a bit about Cicero's Pro Ligario speech, in which he defended a Roman soldier called Ligarius before Caesar. The Roman consul Gaius Vibius Pansa was also involved.
I'm not, shouldn't it be obvious by now that the Christ figure is an amalgam of previous purely mythical figures from across the region including Egyptian going back thousands of years before the supposed time of Christ. These include Horus/Osiris, the Virgin Mary being based on Isis. The Osirian sacrament was virtually identical to the one catholics now practice but used ale instead of wine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJ5rnkrSzsQ It's been known since the Rosetta Stone allowed the translation of ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs that the Christ story was preceded by very similar mythical events that were understood to be exactly that... myth.
I had by then developed a habit of trying to translate, to satisfy my own curiosity, all interesting-looking Latin words I came across (I had Latin for 5 years at school and loved every bit of it). It turns out that Pansa means 'having broad flat feet', no less, and it is one of the tenses of pando, pandere. The word Ligarius has no direct translation, but again, by an almighty coincidence, the Latin word Lignarius means 'a carpenter'. So, here we have in a single context the Flat Feet, a Roman soldier called Pandira (Pandere) and a carpenter (the NT relates that Joseph was a carpenter). Joseph and his friend Sohemus were supposed to guard Mariamne during Herod's absence, but on on occasion he discovered that Joseph and Sohemus must have had intimate conversations with Mariamne, and had Sohemus promptly executed. It would seem that Joseph (sabas) 'of the Flat Feet' had some relationship with the Roman consul, perhaps having married his daughter, and Herod dared not touch him. As I point out in my book Barbelo, there are many stories about Christ and his disciples that point to conclusions that scholars simply seem to be unable to reach. For instance, the fact that the physical descriptions of Christ and Paul match to a T. And the sayings and deeds of Christ and Simon Magus are identical. Can't they connect the dots? It is the very controversy that this information seems to be pointing at, that convinces me that a person called Jesus Christ did exist, but that he was anything but the Son of God.
I've come to not see it that way, but instead see the nature of true Christianity to be of a purely spiritual nature, with Christ representing the logos or christos which is an internal presence or divinity that has nothing to do with actual historical events. Christianity took what was esoteric myths created to describe an inner reality that can not be explained in physical terms and tuned into a literal story that makes no sense at all in its present form. This was done to make it easy for more people to understand and follow which it did do, the cost being to lose most of the actual meaning of the faith. Which as I said is a description of an inner spirit or logos, not a man with miraculous powers. The stories of Jesus healing by touch, raising the dead, converting water to wine, feeding the multitudes and rising from the dead are all based on metaphors that were created to describe the inner rising of conscience and personal inner growth and enlightenment, not literal physical events. Moses takes this paradigm and extends it even further back in time with even less certainty of veracity. Just look at current times where we record events and information to an extent never seen before... and we still have profound discussions over what is real right now. The issue of global warming being a prime example. The Bible and all religious texts are not a historical record, they are a metaphorical representation of the best understanding of the inner life of people at the time. The concept of literal and accurate history that we have now didn't even exist at the time and that includes the Egyptian culture which was highly influenced by myth and legend. So we must take all records from that time with skepticism. Is it possible that there was a central figure who led what became the Israelites out of bondage in Egypt. Is the Bible figure of Moses and the book of Exodus an accurate reflection of actual events. Highly unlikely. It's questionable that the Exodus even happened or that the Jews were ever slaves in Egypt. Religion is myth and must been seen in this light to understand what it is actually saying. It is attempting to describe an inner reality or presence in our lives we do not have a direct connection to which is why these mythological figures are created in the first place... to indirectly describe this inner state. And that includes Moses I think the evidence indicates. For me Christianity has a meaning now far greater than it did once you accept that Christ was never a physical man and the these supernatural events taking place in the Bible are not in a natural physical setting, they are meant to be seen in a purely metaphorical/spiritual light. That includes the "miracles" associated with Moses and the Exodus.

For people who have supposedly never witnessed the aftereffects of a volcanic eruption, the ‘miracles’ of Moses describe in uncannily well. The walls of water would of course be a tsunami, in plague six Moses takes ash from a fireplace and blows it over Egypt, resulting in all kinds of diseases to break out. The darkness was, of course, caused by the volcanic ash blocking out the sun. Only the death of the firstborn was man made - the sacrifice, in fires, of the firstborn children of humans and animals, at precisely the same moment in time. Moses must have been rescued from the sacrificial fires in the nick of time, hence the ‘burning bush’ episode in the Bible.
It should be mentioned that the religious revolution of Egypt against the god Amun, in favour of Akhenaten’s god the Aten, is usually attributed to Akhenaten. A much more sensible explanation would be that Amenhotep III, on the advice of the High Priest of Amun, ordered the sacrifice of the firstborn. When they complied, but it did free Egypt from the deadly plague which was decimating the population, the rejected Amun straightaway. When the population realized that CP Tuthmosis, who would have been first in line to be sacrifice, they would really have been upset with the A3. In the end A3 decided not to fight his own son, with his rebel army, and retreated into Nubia.
How else would you explain the similarity between the plagues and the eruption of a volcano? The Koran even records a sonic boom and a ‘flood’.