Hey, check it out, our body is full of surprises.
Those folds within folds of cumulative harmonic complexity flowing down the stream of time.
Never Before Seen Viral Organisms Found Inside Our Bodies - “Obelisks”
Hello and welcome! My name is Anton and in this video, we will talk about strange new organisms discovered inside our bodies referred to as ‘obelisks’
To a virus the human biome is a universe all to itself.
Let’s go a little deeper and get a taste of what I believe ORCH-OR is based on and why Roger Penrose became interested in cellular molecular “communication” and “chemical reaction” via microtubules because their bipolarity makes them sensitive to magnetic fields.
This excellent conversational video explains and depicts quantum brain activity in birds, migrating via “reading” the earth’s magnet fields.
and the science involved
Scientific Reports volume 12, Article number: 6109 (2022) Cite this article
> The exact mechanism behind general anesthesia remains an open question in neuroscience. It has been proposed that anesthetics selectively prevent consciousness and memory via acting on microtubules (MTs).
It is known that the magnetic field modulates MT organization. A recent study shows that a radical pair model can explain the isotope effect in xenon-induced anesthesia and predicts magnetic field effects on anesthetic potency. Further, reactive oxygen species are also implicated in MT stability and anesthesia.
> Based on a simple radical pair mechanism model and a simple mathematical model of MT organization, we show that magnetic fields can modulate spin dynamics of naturally occurring radical pairs in MT. We propose that the spin dynamics influence a rate in the reaction cycle, which translates into a change in the MT density. We can reproduce magnetic field effects on the MT concentration that have been observed. Our model also predicts additional effects at slightly higher fields.
Our model further predicts that the effect of zinc on the MT density exhibits isotopic dependence. The findings of this work make a connection between microtubule-based and radical pair-based quantum theories of consciousness.
Abstract
The exact mechanism behind general anesthesia remains an open question in neuroscience. It has been proposed that anesthetics selectively prevent consciousness and memory via acting on microtubules (MTs). It is known that the magnetic field modulates MT organization. A recent study shows that a radical pair model can explain the isotope effect in xenon-induced anesthesia and predicts magnetic field effects on anesthetic potency. Further, reactive oxygen species are also implicated in MT stability and anesthesia. Based on a simple radical pair mechanism model and a simple mathematical model of MT organization, we show that magnetic fields can modulate spin dynamics of naturally occurring radical pairs in MT. We propose that the spin dynamics influence a rate in the reaction cycle, which translates into a change in the MT density. We can reproduce magnetic field effects on the MT concentration that have been observed. Our model also predicts additional effects at slightly higher fields. Our model further predicts that the effect of zinc on the MT density exhibits isotopic dependence.
The findings of this work make a connection between microtubule-based and radical pair-based quantum theories of consciousness.
So, the suggestion is that, consciousness is based on magnetic fields?
The video was great, it’s fun seeing how they keep getting closer to understanding mysterious aspects of bird navigation.
But, a sensing organ that is fine tuned to deciphering our Earth’s magnetic fields, is a far cry from a creature interacting with a rapidly changing macroscopic physical reality to produce awareness of what’s going on around them.
I’ll remain extremely skeptical of claims regarding origins/structure of human consciousness that ignore the environmental space (and happenings within that space) that our body exists within.
Quantum is a pizazz word. What I find interesting is that I don’t think anything happens with atoms that isn’t Quantum in nature. So what else would they be expecting to see. I mean what would a non-quantum interaction look like?
[quote=“citizenschallengev4, post:205, topic:9472”]
So, the suggestion is that, consciousness is based on magnetic fields?
No, it suggests that some conscious animals can navigate the earth’s magnetic fields via microtubule orientation, similar to the needle in a compass pointing north.
Apparently these dedicated MTs are located in the optical sensory network and “tell” the brain of changes in the earth’s magnetic field by which they can consciously navigate.
[quote=“citizenschallengev4, post:205, topic:9472”]
Quantum is a pizazz word. What I find interesting is that I don’t think anything happens with atoms that isn’t Quantum in nature. So what else would they be expecting to see. I mean what would a non-quantum interaction look like?>
I agree. And that perspective also suggests that consciousness resides at quantum level and that is one reason why it is so difficult to define or test.
Interestingly, at quantum levels the “observer” effect becomes a factor.
[Roswitha Wiltschko] and Wolfgang Wiltschko
Published:04 September 2019https://doi.org/10.1098/rsif.2019.0295
Abstract
Birds can use two kinds of information from the geomagnetic field for navigation: the direction of the field lines as a compass and probably magnetic intensity as a component of the navigational ‘map’.
The direction of the magnetic field appears to be sensed via radical pair processes in the eyes, with the crucial radical pairs formed by cryptochrome. It is transmitted by the optic nerve to the brain, where parts of the visual system seem to process the respective information. Magnetic intensity appears to be perceived by magnetite-based receptors in the beak region; the information is transmitted by the ophthalmic branch of the trigeminal nerve to the trigeminal ganglion and the trigeminal brainstem nuclei.
Yet in spite of considerable progress in recent years, many details are still unclear, among them details of the radical pair processes and their transformation into a nervous signal, the precise location of the magnetite-based receptors and the centres in the brain where magnetic information is combined with other navigational information for the navigational processes.
More … https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsif.2019.0295#
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Continuing our research on the state of science about microtubules.
Consistent with their involvement in core cellular processes, affecting microtubule assembly results in cytotoxicity and cell death. For these reasons, microtubules are among the most important targets for the therapeutic treatment of several diseases, including cancer.
The vast literature related to microtubule stabilizers and destabilizers has been reviewed extensively in recent years. Here we summarize recent experimental and computational approaches for the identification of novel tubulin modulators and delivery strategies. These include orphan small molecules, PROTACs as well as light-sensitive compounds that can be activated with high spatio-temporal accuracy and that represent promising tools for precision-targeted chemotherapy.
@ CC
In context of your evolving body-mind concept, I came up with a term that IMO describes the body-mind functions from the perspective of the evolved advantageous survival strategies that form the variety of abilities and adaptations of “integrated” systems.
Where the body is the evolved dynamic system that functions as the vehicle that is driven by an independently evolved brain that is in control of the vehicle.
What do you think of the concept that where the brain is formally fully and consciously intelligent, the body is sensory sub-consciously quasi-intelligent and together (connected by the spinal chord) they make use of the most efficient way of dealing with survival mechanisms that allows natural selection to evolve biological patterns into the incredible variety we are witnessing today.
This is but one example
Life on Earth remains a subject of immense curiosity and scientific investigation across all sections of humanity. But have you ever stopped to think about the total amount of life that has existed on Earth since the first cells appeared 3.8 billion years ago?
Crockford’s team found that land plants, despite their late emergence, have likely been the biggest contributors to Earth’s primary production.
Cyanobacteria also stand out as significant contributors. This research is vital in understanding not just the amount of primary production but also the organisms responsible for it.
One fascinating aspect of the study is the estimation of life on Earth, both historically and presently. By correlating primary production with cell existence, the researchers approximate that around 10^30 (10 noninillion) cells exist today.
Throughout Earth’s history, between 10^39 (a duodecillion) and 10^40 cells have likely existed.
These combinations of several combined individual “survival” functions and strategies at all levels of evolved intelligence, compose the “individual” in living organisms and allow for an infinite variety of adaptions of those survival systems.
Care to comment?
That sounds pretty spot on.
I like it, and could never have come up with that formulation.
I’ll be chewing on those words.
This is exactly why I’m so desperate for serious feedback.
Thanks. 
Also the learning and remembering new lessons to build upon.
Because that changing “vehicle” learns from novel ways moving and interactions with environment,
which created novel circumstance, challenges, and never ending novelty,
thus the learning curve was born,
which in time keeps getting “improved” upon, according to changing physical conditions.
And so on.
An interesting article that explains the advantage of consciousness over and above the ability of an organism to react unconsciously to stimulus.
The answer to the title question is, in a word, volition. Our hypothesis is that the ultimate adaptive function of consciousness is to make volitional movement possible. All conscious processes exist to subserve that ultimate function. Thus, we believe that all conscious organisms possess at least some volitional capability.
Consciousness makes volitional attention possible; volitional attention, in turn, makes volitional movement possible. There is, as far as we know, no valid theoretical argument or convincing empirical evidence that consciousness itself has any direct causal efficacy other than volition.
Consciousness, via volitional action, increases the likelihood that an organism will direct its attention, and ultimately its movements, to whatever is most important for its survival and reproduction.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0732118X15300039#
An interesting factoid of an old horror story about the evils of Thalidomide.
Microtubules , which are essential components of the cytoskeleton in cells, play crucial roles in processes like cell division, intracellular transport, and maintaining cell shape. However, their vulnerability to teratogens during fetal development can have significant consequences.
Teratogens are substances that interfere with normal fetal development and can cause congenital disabilities. Here are some points related to microtubules and teratogens:
- Teratogenic Effects on Microtubules:
- Teratogens can indeed affect microtubules during fetal development. For example, exposure to certain chemicals, drugs, or infections can disrupt microtubule function.
- During the first 3 to 5 weeks of pregnancy, when critical organ systems are forming, teratogens can impact microtubules and other cellular structures1. This period is especially sensitive because many organs and systems are developing.
- Microtubules are involved in processes like cell division (mitosis and meiosis), so any disruption can lead to abnormal cell division and subsequent developmental issues.
Search (bing.com)](are microtubules vulnerable to teratogenics - Search
Interesting discussion.
There is something about a thing being more than the sum of it’s parts that I’m uncomfortable with. In a way it is the age old question of if things differ by degree or kind. Does consciousness emerge or is it just a semantically problem? I would start by defining intelligence. I think a good definition would be the ability to respond to the environment in a way that increases fitness. That would make intelligence a property of all life. So what is an amoebas “consciousness”? It move towards food and away from toxins. You could say it is “conscious” of two things about it’s environment. That makes consciousness a matter of degree not kind as you go up the scale of an organism’s complexity.
What are humans conscious of? It would seem reasonable to assume that which increases fitness. At this point it is helpful to think of complex organisms as colonies of cells. Each cell is “conscious” of what it evolved to be conscious of. It is “designed” to be “unconscious” of all the irrelevant information about it’s environment as it relates to it’s function. When you get to really complex organism you can think of the organism as a ecosystem of symbiotic colonies we call organs etc. Each colony having it’s own function. We think of the brain as the seat of consciousness but perhaps that is an illusion. We have to ask what is the brains function from a fitness perspective. All it can do is process the information that other organs provide. Like every cell or organ it is “designed” to only process the information that increases fitness. The brain itself is a colony of different organs. Part of those organs are concerned with what we call self awareness. Again that can be misleading because every part of the brain is “aware” of some vital function. The problem becomes what is self. That seems to be only the parts of the brain that are aware of self or certain high level functions. Self is “intentionally” cut off from low level information. For it to function it can’t be distracted by information that doesn’t serve it’s function. All the “instinctual” information that is a distraction. That is why we call complex instincts feelings because we often only become aware of them through physiological changes. The instinctual parts of the brain have already processed the necessary information and “decided” what the appropriate action is. Self operates as a gate keeper to coordinate those actions with the complex information about the environment it is “designed” to process. Evolution is conservative so only information that increases fitness will be available through the senses. In the end we are only conscious of a small part of the environment we live in.
Humans are the cultural ape. This is such a profound reality that it defines are evolution. We don’t have tools because we have large brains, we have large brains because tools allowed for the diversion of nutrients away from the gut to evolve a large brain. We are all about tools, including the cognitive tools that culturally evolved. One of those tools is language including the languages of math and logic. What we don’t notice is that all language is abstract, meaning not the thing itself. A simplified version that reduces complexity. The question then is how does language increase “consciousness”? One way is that it aids in building tools. Tools that increase the ability of the senses. Other tools that help organize that information. That organization however should never be confused with the thing itself. What I’m getting at is that the actual environment is a complex chaotic system more complex than we can imagine. A limitation if you will of “consciousness”. Assuming that consciousness is “real” and not an illusion then can we be conscious of anything more complex than ourselves? Can we be conscious of consciousness? We assume that if we have the right tools it is possible. That tool most likely will be artificial intelligence (which of course is not artificial at all but just what would evolve from stone tools culturally). Even that of course will be a simplified version. It turns out that there is no end to the degree game. If “artificial” intelligence consumed all the energy in the universe it still would not be as complicated as the universe.
What I’m trying to get at is at what degree of complexity is consciousness explained? If we are looking at how to make it serve fitness shouldn’t the goal be to reduce it to something manageable? The way physics reduces reality to a formula. The problem with biology is it is a complex chaotic system that is irreducible. Stephan Wolfram in his “New Kind of Science” proposes a solution. Instead of the top down solutions we are use to can we let the solutions evolve from the bottom up. I don’t know it is above my pay grade but I still feel like we are looking for kind where it is a matter of degree.
[quote=“wolfhnd, post:213, topic:9472”]
We think of the brain as the seat of consciousness but perhaps that is an illusion.
It has been pretty well established that the brain is the body’s control system.
This can be demonstrated with anesthesia. Anesthesia renders a person into a vegetative state, an object , while a partofthebrain maintains the body’s health (biochemical balance that does not require consciousness per se. (See Anil Seth)
We have to ask what is the brains function from a fitness perspective. All it can do is process the information that other organs provide. Like every cell or organ it is “designed” to only process the information that increases fitness.
Again I would say that the conscious part of the brain is dedicateded to “survival”, rather than fitness, which is controlled by the subconscious homeostatic part of the brain that regulates the body’s biochemical balance and fitness.
The brain itself is a colony of different organs.
Well, I would say that the brain is a single organ, a giant neural network with different parts evolved to perform specific dedicated tasks.
Note that the brain alone contains some 100 billion neurons, connected by some 100 trillion synapses. A network that contains more neural connections than objects in our galaxy !
Moreover, these areas are not isolated from each other and are part of the greater brain/body neural “network”. Compare the human sized biological computer with a city-block sized brain of GPT4, the modern AI computer.
Part of those organs are concerned with what we call self awareness. Again that can be misleading because every part of the brain is “aware” of some vital function. The problem becomes what is self.
Apparently that is the part of the brain with emergent self-awareness, i.e. the result of continued evolution of sensory processes, being refined to a degree that becomes aware of these sensory stimuli and the beginning of self-control (choice of action)
(see Stuart Hameroff)
That seems to be only the parts of the brain that are aware of self or certain high level functions. Self is “intentionally” cut off from low level information.
Yes, that is the separation of the conscious part and the unconscious part of the brain.
But make no mistake, it is that unconscious homeostatic part of the brain that keeps the body alive, (the “vegetative state”).
Humans are the cultural ape. This is such a profound reality that it defines are evolution. We don’t have tools because we have large brains, we have large brains because tools allowed for the diversion of nutrients away from the gut to evolve a large brain.
Here I have my own informed layman’s hypothesis that the human brain was not a result of gradual evolution, but the result of a rare beneficial genetic mutation in our common ancestor, i.e. the fusion of two smaller chromosomes into one single but twice as large single chromosome #2.
Of all the apes, only humans have 46 chromosomes, whereas all other apes have 48 chromosomes.
I believe that this mutated chromosome is responsible for extraordinary brain growth and information processing capacity.
And according to ORCH OR , proposed by Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff, this extraordinary complexity of the human brain creates an internal “quantum field” that creates a neural self-aware perception (controlled hallucination) of the actual neural data as it is processed by the brain and compared to stored memories.
While we have been talking about neurons doing all the work, that is but a generality.
The actual data processors are the microtubules inside the neurons.
Microtubules are one of the cytoskeletal filament systems in eukaryotic cells. The microtubule cytoskeleton is involved in the transport of material within cells, carried out by motor proteins that move on the surface of the microtubule.
Note that all Eukaryotic life have microtubules in common.
But that is a whole different story.
Thanks for the reply!
I probably did a poor job of it but what I was trying to do was deal with the semantics.
Here is an article that tracks the use of words in science.
Francis Bacon, visionary of a new, experimental natural philosophy, called language an “idol of the marketplace”: a counterfeit currency we trade in so habitually that we no longer notice the gap between words and the world. True to its Baconian ideology, the Royal Society of London, one of the world’s oldest scientific societies, made nullius in verba (roughly, “on no one’s word”)
The focus was on spoken and written language where definitions can shift. Some languages however have higher reproductive fidelity for example the symbolic language of chemistry. Math is another example. What they have in common with common language is that they are abstract. What Bacon observed is relevant today. The this idea that language is abstract. Language is not self confining to reality. The irony being that properly understood all of science is then abstract. It is simply more accurate and precise than common language or the metaphysical world. What that means is that the model created out of symbolic language is a simplified model of reality. There are no “ultimate” explanations. Some are just more accurate and precise than others. Two people can hold what seems to be opposing positions but both be right or accurate and precise but are just modeling different aspects of reality. The question becomes how to avoid the semantic trap even when dealing with symbolic languages. As it mimics evolution it seems that bottom up computation is the answer. That is why I referred to Stefan Wolfram’s “New Kind of Science”. If you have a simple explanation that is self elaborating to the desired end result you are headed in the right direction. I think that Dennett saw the same thing. He offered the philosophical answer and Wolfram the mathematical answer.
I’m not sure I’m making much sense because tying it back to the discussion at hand is complicated. What I’m pretty confident about is that imagination plays the role of mutations it theory that random changes play in physical evolution. That is why we need speculation but it has to be restrained by an environment of high reproductive fidelity.
An interesting topic.
I suggest that you start a new thread on the subject.
This thread is about microtubules and my previous post was a setting a background for my belief of the important role the microtubule network plays in the phenomenon of emergent consciousness.
Microtubules are the nanoscale workhorse within the cytoplasm, cytoskeleton, and neural networks.
Starting with the lowly slime mold, a multi-nucleic single celled organism which is capable of “walking” (pseudopodia), and solving mazes via “subtraction” a mathematical function, as well as intracellular and intercellular communication, the foundation of emergent consciousness
It doesn’t “know” that is solving problems, it just does it based on the dynamic action of the microtubule network contained in the organism.
Meta-heuristic algorithms have a high position among academic researchers in various fields, such as science and engineering, in solving optimization problems. These algorithms can provide the most optimal solutions for optimization problems. This paper investigates a new meta-heuristic algorithm called Slime Mould algorithm (SMA) from different optimization aspects.
The SMA algorithm was invented due to the fluctuating behavior of slime mold in nature. It has several new features with a unique mathematical model that uses adaptive weights to simulate the biological wave. It provides an optimal pathway for connecting food with high exploration and exploitation ability.
As of 2020, many types of research based on SMA have been published in various scientific databases, including IEEE, Elsevier, Springer, Wiley, Tandfonline, MDPI, etc. In this paper, based on SMA, four areas of hybridization, progress, changes, and optimization are covered.
The rate of using SMA in the mentioned areas is 15, 36, 7, and 42%, respectively. According to the findings, it can be claimed that SMA has been repeatedly used in solving optimization problems. As a result, it is anticipated that this paper will be beneficial for engineers, professionals, and academic scientists.
Yes I suppose it was off topic but reading through the previous posts I wasn’t seeing much from either side that was objectionable.
I have only been here a few days but so far it seems like a pretty good forum.
Thanks for the link and yes it is what I was talking about.
Yes, except for the occasional troll, most members are interested laypersons.
All civilized persons are welcome.
Most discussions are at basic levels without requiring advanced scientific knowledge.
However CFI does sponsor science lectures and social events that are available on Youtube. It is an international organization. Members get notified of special events.
This isn’t about microtubules, but I know at a certain point in this video, W4 will jump with joy and point out, you that’s microtubules doing that. Although, then I would point out, well that’s microtubules in action. Yes, though it seems they are being used by mitochondria, then all the sub-complexity driving protein building.
That’s why I prefer the symphony analogy for appraising bodily mechanism, no one is in charge, it’s cooperative collective, a finely honed creature.
Aug 7, 2023
Your mind can influence how your body feels and vice versa. This brain-body communication began with the origin of life 1.5 billion years ago, resulting in how energy is produced in your cells. Understanding this dynamic, adaptive flow of energy, can transform how you think about your health and our shared human experience.Martin Picard is an associate professor of behavioral medicine in psychiatry and neurology at Columbia University. His groundbreaking lab investigates mechanisms of brain-body communication, focusing on how mitochondria influence cognition, stress resilience, and aging.
He is building an integrative model of human health that can help transform how we teach and practice medicine. Beyond his passion for mitochondria, Martin enjoys electric cars, renewable energy, and spending time in nature with his family.
And we keep learning more mind boggling details every season.
Yes, I am aware of the role the mitochondria plays in the orchestra. But note that the mitochondrion produces chemical energy for homeostasis of the body’s organs, like liver and lungs and has less to do with “neural” data transmission
Mitochondria have a double membrane structure and use aerobic respiration to generate adenosine triphosphate (ATP), which is used throughout the cell as a source of chemical energy.[2]
Mitochondrion - Wikipedia
and
Mitochondrial dynamics regulates mitochondrial metabolism and insulin signaling . • Mitochondrial dynamics is essential for energy homeostasis and body weight control. • Proteins participating in mitochondrial fusion or fission modulate mitochondrial quality.Mitochondrial dynamics and metabolic homeostasis - ScienceDirect
So the microtubule still seems to be the primary candidate for the cytol and neural data network and orchestration of emergent consciousness.
