moved…
Just kidding… 
… 
This is a nice introduction to ORCH OR
I’m up to about 37:00, have some mindless kindling chopping to do so am pretty sure I’ll make it to the end.
Why are you sharing this?
Are there any specific evidences, or arguments, being presented that you think are particularly insightful?
I mean now we’re deep into theology. 
36:57
… that’s that could be the platonic values embedded in the fine scale structure of the universe that we’re moving to moving towards but um uh i think uh you know uh symbiosis and other cooperative activities that that uh are essential for for evolution might be to uh again optimize pleasure i mean uh …
I’ve finished, and am scratching my head.
35:00 - The “pleasure theory” of life and evolution.
What wrong with seeing pleasure as an evolved inevitability of creature hemostasis?
32:08 - “in my opinion i think consciousness precedes life”
But consciousness is an interaction between beings and environments - what’s the point of consciousness, and to call quantum collapse a kernel of consciousness, lordie that’s theology and not science.
29:13 - epigenetic information is in the central than the cytoskeleton right yeah right
But epigenetic almost by definition is about outside influences, how can that information be stored within microtubules. That’s not to say its impacts aren’t reflected in microtubules, though that pure speculation. Either way. Isn’t it?
Then the quip (26:10) that compares “Cytoskeleton,”
microtubule interruptions to bones - “… because you wouldn’t break your bones first …”
That’s pure narrative manipulation - imparts no information but does leave a lingering misunderstanding. Comparing cytoskeleton to bone,
Maddy is staring me down, trying to herd me into a walk, oop, now the polite paw on my leg. Gotta go.
Looking at this from a biological perspective.
At what point does consciousness emerge?
When there’s a need for it.
At the biological level, when entities need to start dealing with their surroundings & environments.
Consciousness is an emergent biological capacity.
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Moved this here from the Vervaeke thread. It didn’t belong there.
Do you have an example of inanimate life - I’m trying to wrap my head around the notion and failing.
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Try this.
Microtubules in Influenza Virus Entry and Egress
For influenza viruses, microtubules facilitate intracellular transportation at multiple stages during the viral life cycle. Microtubules and their associated proteins also mediate physical disassembly of the viral shell and genome release into the cytoplasm. Jan 17, 2020
Note that the term “life-cycle” does not imply a living organism, but a “duration of existence”.
and
Virus Intelligence: Are Viruses Alive and Sentient?
A previous post has discussed the fact that mitochondria were once independent microbes and now appear to be dependent symbiotic microbes living inside the neuron with their own movements, reproduction, and self-monitoring for quality. The mitochondria are critical for a neuron’s energy supply, communication with other neurons, and the ability of the cell to destroy itself when necessary. These mitochondria use the microtubule transportation highway to move about the neuron wherever energy is needed rapidly. They move along the entire neuron axon helping the difficult process of long range signaling as well as repair. They also move rapidly to areas where new synapses are being built or disassembled.
A previous post described the marvelous structure of the neuron’s microtubules, perhaps the “brain” of the neuron, which not only build the structure of the neurons’ axons and dendrites on the fly creating new synapses, but also transport molecules long distances. It has been postulated these microtubule also function as quantum computers in their connection with mental activity (see post).
This large microtubule railroad has transport vehicles that travel rapidly along its tracks powered by (protein-based) dynein and kinesin motors. A specific molecule, dynactin, attaches the virion (or full virus) to the dynein motorcar, shuttling it straight to the nucleus.
Very recently, it has been shown that the herpes virus can control the mitochondria as it would other bacteria. Normally, increased calcium is a signal for the mitochondria to produce energy for the next signal; in addition, the increased calcium is part of the mechanism of its movement. However, when infected with the virus the level of activity in the neuron increases, including an increase in calcium. With an increase in calcium from the virus infection it allows the virus to control the mitochondria.
The viruses disable the mitochondria by unhinging the proteins on which they travel. In particular, they disable the dynein motors. The kinesin motors are then available for the virus. This control of the mitochondria allows the virus to freely travel through the neuron as the mitochondria usually does.
Note that at large scales there are non-living animate objects such as crystals.
Crystals grow but it is a purely mathematical process, that does not depend on microtubules for transport .
It uses the natural dynamics of Earth to exist. But look at the exquisite mathematical patterns crystals can form.
This looks like the definitive text
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weird, so “plant life” isn’t alive, or does it get a dispensation,
and I suppose viruses don’t rate a dispensation?
But I stand corrected, and was locked into a notion of inanimate, lacking all motion.
A definitive text indeed.
2 minute read, heck it took that long to read through the index! That’s some serious reading.
So tell me, how much of title’s composition might be attributable to marketing - add a dash of provocative eye candy and an intellectual hook, while the publishers were at it.
Inanimate Life is an open textbook covering a very traditional biological topic, botany, in a non-traditional way.
Rather than a phylogenetic approach, going group by group, the book considers what defines organisms and examines four general areas of their biology: structure (size, shape, composition and how it comes to be); reproduction (including sex when present); energy and material needs, acquisition and manipulations; and finally their interactions with conditions and with other organisms including agricultural interactions between plants and people.
Although much of the text is devoted to vascular plants, the book comparatively considers ‘EBA = everything but animals’ (hence the title): plants, photosynthetic organisms that are not plants (‘algae’, as well as some bacteria and archaebacteria), fungi, and ‘fungal-like’ organisms.
The book includes brief ‘fact sheets’ of fifty-nine organisms/groups that biologists should be aware of, ranging from the very familiar (corn, yeast, pines) to the unfamiliar (cryptophytes, diatoms, late-blight of potato). These groups reflect the diversity of inanimate life.
That is non-animal life.
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I didn’t say i approved it, just that it’s the hit you get when looking for “inanimate life”. The line between life and not life is fascinating, but lately, conversations here have devolved into statements with little nuance.
I’m not knocking it, I appreciate the clarification.
Moved from “So, what’s science then”?
Yet, our mainstream metaphysics—physicalism—denies that: according to physicalism, all those qualities exist solely inside our skull, in that they are somehow—nobody has ever coherently and explicitly specified how—conjured up into existence by our brain activity.
This is what Anil Seth refers to as confirmation of the brain’s expectation as compared to prior data stored in memory.
Seth’s own view falls along the lines of predictive coding theories of consciousness.
These theories see the brain as a Bayesian processing system, one that is constantly making predictions, receiving error correction from the world, and adjusting. In this view, perception happens from the inside out rather than outside in. The system is constantly making predictions about what is there, receiving sensory information, and adjusting.
It’s important to understand that these predictions are generally related to what the system is doing or planning to do. So the predictions, the inferences, should be viewed as active inferences rather than passive ones. This view has a lot of resonance with Karl Friston’s free energy principle, which Seth explores a bit in the book.
Another important aspect of this view to understand, is it doesn’t just pertain to predictions about the outside world, but also about the self. In other words, the self is just another perception, a prediction, or a set of predictions, ones involving the state of the body, the perspective of the system, and the perception of volition (free will). We primarily perceive ourselves in order to control ourselves.
This pertains even to emotions, which Seth sees as control oriented perceptions (predictions) which regulate the body’s essential variables.
more …
More evidence.
CC, this supports your perspective!!
Many theories of consciousness, such as IIT (Integrated Information Theory), seem to envision consciousness as being like temperature. On the other hand, biological life is a complex phenomenon, not subject to being meaningfully described by a single equation or measurement. Seth’s money is that consciousness is more like life than temperature.
Now this is an interesting 3D presentation of “thinking”…
Note the zoom-in to the neuronal level and the synaptic microtubule network toward the end of the video.
PHILOSOPHY
An Overview of the Leading Theories of Consciousness
Organizing and comparing the major candidate theories in the field.
Updated November 25, 2023 | Reviewed by Davia Sills
A proliferation of theories
Presently we are still at a relatively early stage in the scientific study of consciousness. At this point, there are a great many theories of consciousness proliferating and competing with each other.
Those theories sometimes seem to talk past each other as they explore vastly different approaches to the problem. Attempting to understand the various ToCs and how they contrast with one another can be quite overwhelming, even for those with a good deal of familiarity with the field.
And here is a wonderful presentation of my POV by a clearly well-informed speaker.
And a follow-up specifically on ORCH OR
Continuing with our quest to understand ORCH-OR.
This is a very succinct but clear presentation of ORCH-OR
Continuing our quest.
A Biopolymer Transistor: Electrical Amplification by Microtubules
Abstract
Microtubules (MTs) are important cytoskeletal structures engaged in a number of specific cellular activities, including vesicular traffic, cell cyto-architecture and motility, cell division, and information processing within neuronal processes.
MTs have also been implicated in higher neuronal functions, including memory and the emergence of “consciousness”.
How MTs handle and process electrical information, however, is heretofore unknown. Here we show new electrodynamic properties of MTs. Isolated, taxol-stabilized MTs behave as biomolecular transistors capable of amplifying electrical information. Electrical amplification by MTs can lead to the enhancement of dynamic information, and processivity in neurons can be conceptualized as an “ionic-based” transistor, which may affect, among other known functions, neuronal computational capabilities.
more… https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0006349506726388
Yup, truly mind bending.
Thus, our findings provide several advantages in the context of neural function.
Cable theory analysis of dendrites 21., 22. has challenged the simple integrate and fire models, suggesting that dendrites impose a heavy conductance load on the soma, acting as low-pass filters of postsynaptic potentials, hence changing the response to synaptic activities (22).
The dendritic electrical properties are dynamically changed by modulation of voltage-gated ion channels 6., 22., 23. and by changes in cytoskeletal structures 25., 26., 27..
Thus, MT electrical amplification may be central to revised models of neuronal adaptability 23., 28., 29. providing renewed support to nonlinear models of neuronal activity.
The road goes on for ever and the party never ends.
Did you notice the preparation they put the MT through?
These are still early days. Fact gathering.
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Yes, and I hope to witness the understanding of “understanding”… 
This is why I have been so intrigued with microtubules,
“the VERY little engine that could”
True enough,
I agree.
But I also totally agree that human consciousness is way too complex and interactive for MT to be the answer to consciousness* - they certainly appear to be key components of the mechanism at the smallest level, I’ll give you have.
Still, it’s the process of the totality that produces our fleeting consciousness.
That’s another aspect I think doesn’t get enough attention.
Consciousness only happens in the fleeting moment of now - a picture just came to mind, those huge Steppe fires, where there’s nothing but green grass, with a line of fire and smoke running across it, and on the other, it’s nothing but black char.
The future, the moment we live, then the past.
“Turning dreams into memories.”
*Now, if we were talking about the origins of awareness then consciousness, and the first creatures, we need to look to before we became animals,
seems to me that would be the place to look for how MT components help make awareness, first of cell, then body, and then the outside world and then beyond, . . . which is where all of this started, and which is why I’m increasing irritated with philosopher’s who think they can logic-it-out, by understanding consciousness through observing human behavior and optical illusions, what-if stories, and such.
Which aren’t worthless, simply limited
and way too often misrepresented
with conclusions well beyond anything solid facts justifies.
The meta-physics we only need within our thoughts (read mindscape), it’s not required for understanding how those thoughts are produced. but I digress. I imagine we feel the same on that one.
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