Microtubule network, the seat of consciousness?

Science and Technology
21

It always is until proven true.

Penrose recognized that. His words: " This is an intriguing issue, and a number of scientists have been coming round to the view that something of this general nature might actually be true!"

Sounds like a provisional statement to me, as opposed to your vehement insistence that it is impossible for such a thing to be true.

If your perspective is followed for every controversial hypoythesis, that would be the end of science altogether.

I’ll say this one more time: microtubules are the SINGLE common denominators for the processing and transport of data in ALL biological organisms .

NOTE: ALL Eukaryotic organisms contain microtubules, even if they do not contain neurons.

OTOH: Prokaryotes are always unicellular organisms and may be bacteria or archaea. … Eukaryotic cells are much larger and more complex than prokaryotes and contain several cell structures and organelles that are missing from prokaryotic cells. Jan 26, 2021

But even prokaryotes have rudimentary tubulin organelles.

Most prokaryotes use a tubulin homologue , a protein known as FtsZ, to divide.

Eukaryotic organelles such as chloroplasts and mitochondria evolved from bacteria, and all chloroplasts and some mitochondria use FtsZ to divide.

IOW the is evidence that there is a evolutionary linearity in the formation of microtubules in complex organisms.

I challenge the entire world’s scientific community to find a better suited candidate as a physical substrate for an emergent conscious awareness of data processing and memory than microtubules.

22

Science is very hard work. Pulling consciousness out of microtubule quantum states is a bad sci-fi. So bad, it’s not even wrong. Falsify it.

Penrose has gone the way of Hoyle, Margulis, Davies, Laithwaite, Dyson in his very old age.

23

No, you are not seeing this from the proper perspective. Forget about the quantum stuff for the moment. That sort of mechanism comes much later in the data.
The mechanism is almost irrelevant. It is the result that is indisputable, just as water is the indisputable result of a collection of dry atoms at a certain temeparature.

Don’t start with the hard question. Start with hard facts. Tegmark is a modern physicist who disagrees with Penrose about the quantum aspect because it is too abstract, but does agree that consciosness is an emergent property of patterned systems, and that does not argue against the potential of emergent consciousness exhibited by microtubule patterns that are fully engaged in sensory data processing.

Do watch this little lecture from a physicist standpoint. Then examine the logical argument.

24

Everything has a mathematical pattern. As it’s a TeD I’ll give it a go.

Later. Nice, simple, no bizarre claims at all. Nothing controversial or new: emergence upon… emergence. Apart from phi. A first index of consciousness derived from EEG data.

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river said: ↑

For you now what , no mathematics here as the essence of the microtubules .

And that is where I believe you are missing the point. Microtubules are “data processors” and as such obey EM laws, that are mathematical in essence.
Note that microtubules are dipolar spiral coils, which means they are microprocessors. Moreover, their variable length makes them into “potentiometers” and that is an active control mechanism, not just a passive conductor.

Now imagine a network of a trillion actively controlling data processors and add a few billion years of evolutionary processes, producing a more finely tuned and sensitive communication network with each generation.

Note that microtubules themselves are evolved from Prokaryotic fibrils which were the common microtubule precursor.

Origin and Evolution of the Self-Organizing Cytoskeleton in the Network of Eukaryotic Organelles, Gáspár Jékely

Abstract

The eukaryotic cytoskeleton evolved from prokaryotic cytomotive filaments. Prokaryotic filament systems show bewildering structural and dynamic complexity and, in many aspects, prefigure the self-organizing properties of the eukaryotic cytoskeleton.

Here, the dynamic properties of the prokaryotic and eukaryotic cytoskeleton are compared, and how these relate to function and evolution of organellar networks is discussed.

The evolution of new aspects of filament dynamics in eukaryotes, including severing and branching, and the advent of molecular motors converted the eukaryotic cytoskeleton into a self-organizing “active gel,” the dynamics of which can only be described with computational models.

And IMO, this is the “beginning” of evolving emergent consciousness.

Advances in modeling and comparative genomics hold promise of a better understanding of the evolution of the self-organizing cytoskeleton in early eukaryotes, and its role in the evolution of novel eukaryotic functions, such as amoeboid motility, mitosis, and ciliary swimming.

26

What is consciousness ?
Does consciousness require thought or just ability to respond to external influences?

If we just discount the ability for self-awareness , we can make a claim that everything with ability to respond to external influence exhibits a form of consciousness.

A perfect example is heliotropism in sunflowers. Their physical response to the position of the sun is clearly observable . Moreover, almost all plants have a sense of time (circadian rhythm), just as almost all living organisms exhibit “sensory responses” to environmental conditions.

Circadian rhythms are physical, mental, and behavioral changes that follow a 24-hour cycle . These natural processes respond primarily to light and dark and affect most living things, including animals, plants, and microbes. Chronobiology is the study of circadian rhythms.

If this response to “cause and effect” is taken universally, I believe this is what Roger Penrose means by a “conscious dimension” to spacetime physics.
And if then we assign a mathematical “logic” to this physical response mechanism, my claim is that the universe exhibits a mathematical quasi-intelligence as advanced by Max Tegmark in his “Mathematical Universe”.

As microtubules are responsive to EM fields and have the ability to transcribe and transport eletrochemical “information”, I believe that a solid argument can be made that microtubules are “sensitive” (quasi-conscious) to quantum mechanics and if taken as a network generating a "field " that allows the brain to “experience” an cognitive response.

The more I read about microtubules and their incredible versatility in function, combined with their incredible numbers present in living cells.

Here is an extensive study of the role microtubules play in the entire existence of the organism.

image
image1280×924 138 KB

Summary of WDR47 working model.

At the cellular level, WDR47 acts as a stabilizer of microtubules. SCG10, a microtubule destabilizer at the growth cone, is regulated by JNK1 through phosphorylation. In the cytoplasm, WDR47 negatively regulates p62 and LC3-mediated autophagy. Reduced expression of Wdr47 leads to destabilization of the microtubules, increased Tau and autophagic flux, and decreased cell motility.

At the tissue level, the loss of Wdr47 yields fiber tract defects, including corpus callosum agenesis, microcephaly, and thinner cortices, that are linked to a reduced number of progenitors, increased number of neurons in the intermediate zone, and elevated number of dying neurons in the cortical upper layers.

At the organism level, these defects may explain impairment in motor coordination, reduced grip strength, and increased pain sensitivity. AP, apical progenitor; IP, intermediate progenitor; MN, migrating neuron; MT, microtubule.

https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1713625114#fig08
emphasized text

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Hello Write,

This isn’t really on topic of consciousness, but close and I figured it might interest you. I just ran across it and thought I’d share. (Remind you that I don’t have anything against microtubules.) :wink:

The evolutionary history of human spindle genes includes back-and-forth gene flow with Neandertals

  1. Stéphane Peyrégne Is a corresponding author

  2. Janet Kelso

  3. Benjamin M Peter

  4. Svante Pääbo Is a corresponding author

  5. Department of Evolutionary Genetics, Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, Germany

Jul 11, 2022

1 Like
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Yes, and it does illustrate the incredible versatility in functions performed by microtubules. They are involved in almost every exchange of “information” taking place in the body of every Eukaryotic organism on earth.

It is no wonder that there is active research in the question of microtubule involvement in the emergence of consciousness. They are involved in everything else!