In depth analysis from Beltane.
which leads to what amounts to "victim-worship"."victim-worship" That's funny. It seems to me the new GOP and Trump are the one's who are all about self-victimization-worship. Listen to the delusional garbage being pumped out by the GOP machine. Everybody hates them and everyone else is a perceived enemy. :down:Thats not what I'm talking about, but I'll respond this way - the hate for Trump is intense, and coming from a fairly big segment of society, but he doesn't act like a victim. He's a superstar and he knows it. The GOP might have some names who feel sorry for themselves, probably most don't. What I'm talking about is the liberal tendency to become too compassionate towards marginalized groups at everyone else's expense. It basically amounts to an almost religious veneration of these groups. Another word for it is pathological altruism.
Let's look at the facts. One of America's most liberal Presidents was Franklin Roosevelt. He took office in an America that had been devastated by the same kind of single-minded greed that is destroying not just the US but most of the world now. He also faced the rise of extreme right wing parties in places like Japan, Italy, Spain and Germany. If not for the intervention of a liberal led US the entire world would have entered a conformist nightmare that would have lasted for a very long time. If the US was faced with the same challenge now it's likely that the Trump White House would make common cause with those kind of extremist governments. The Trump White House is an extremist government based on racism, elitism and corruption. trump is more interested in making the Russians happy as we saw with the firing of an FBI director who was trying to fulfill his duty to protect the US Constitution from enemies both foreign and domestic. The Russians who hacked the last US election in favour of Trump are the foreign enemy. Trump and his team who had extensive contacts with the Russians throughout the last election year and took full advantage of the theft of private DNC material are also maintaining that strong connection and working further to undermine the US Constitution are the domestic enemy. Steve Bannon who played a central role in the election of Trump and is still a powerful figure in the Trump White House is a fascist. Too much liberalism my ass, the US faces the grave risk of too much fascism in its hall of power. And that includes groups like the completely misnamed republican Tea Party which is not much more than astro-turf for wealthy conservatives who are rapidly buying their way to complete power in the US. The US needs much greater liberalism and an assertion of what the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution really stand for. And that is for personal liberty and a firm separation of the state from any influences that may try to impose their will on the American people at large. Liberals aren't trying to do that, but conservatives sure as hell are. That includes a man that used a hostile foreign power to take office and who is constantly working to undermine and eventually destroy the US Constitution. Trump is a traitor and so is anyone who is enabling him, that now includes most of the republican party...Unhinged and inaccurate post, sir. Provide the slightest bit of evidence of where and how. Franklin Roosevelt was one of the most liberal presidents in US history. Under his leadership America was the arsenal of freedom and sent millions of men overseas to help defeat fascist governments across the planet. Trump on the other hand gathered most of his support by picking visible minorities then bashing the heck out of them and eventually had a well documented white supremacist for a campaign manager who then became the key White House strategist. There's ample evidence that the Trump campaign worked closely with the Russian government that used a modern version of the Watergate theft on the DNC and the political rat-fucking - that's the actual name - of the Nixon team. Give us something more than borderline ad hominem nonsense or admit you have zero to offer on this subject.
@BeltaneLet's look at the facts. One of America's most liberal Presidents was Franklin Roosevelt. He took office in an America that had been devastated by the same kind of single-minded greed that is destroying not just the US but most of the world now. He also faced the rise of extreme right wing parties in places like Japan, Italy, Spain and Germany. If not for the intervention of a liberal led US the entire world would have entered a conformist nightmare that would have lasted for a very long time. If the US was faced with the same challenge now it's likely that the Trump White House would make common cause with those kind of extremist governments. The Trump White House is an extremist government based on racism, elitism and corruption. trump is more interested in making the Russians happy as we saw with the firing of an FBI director who was trying to fulfill his duty to protect the US Constitution from enemies both foreign and domestic. The Russians who hacked the last US election in favour of Trump are the foreign enemy. Trump and his team who had extensive contacts with the Russians throughout the last election year and took full advantage of the theft of private DNC material are also maintaining that strong connection and working further to undermine the US Constitution are the domestic enemy. Steve Bannon who played a central role in the election of Trump and is still a powerful figure in the Trump White House is a fascist. Too much liberalism my ass, the US faces the grave risk of too much fascism in its hall of power. And that includes groups like the completely misnamed republican Tea Party which is not much more than astro-turf for wealthy conservatives who are rapidly buying their way to complete power in the US. The US needs much greater liberalism and an assertion of what the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution really stand for. And that is for personal liberty and a firm separation of the state from any influences that may try to impose their will on the American people at large. Liberals aren't trying to do that, but conservatives sure as hell are. That includes a man that used a hostile foreign power to take office and who is constantly working to undermine and eventually destroy the US Constitution. Trump is a traitor and so is anyone who is enabling him, that now includes most of the republican party...Unhinged and inaccurate post, sir.Provide the slightest bit of evidence of where and how. Franklin Roosevelt was one of the most liberal presidents in US history. Under his leadership America was the arsenal of freedom and sent millions of men overseas to help defeat fascist governments across the planet. Trump on the other hand gathered most of his support by picking visible minorities then bashing the heck out of them and eventually had a well documented white supremacist for a campaign manager who then became the key White House strategist. There's ample evidence that the Trump campaign worked closely with the Russian government that used a modern version of the Watergate theft on the DNC and the political rat-fucking - that's the actual name - of the Nixon team. Give us something more than borderline ad hominem nonsense or admit you have zero to offer on this subject.
What is up with the spam filter here anyway, it makes it almost impossible to reply often?
In depth analysis from Beltane.Yup, more BS gaslighting from the right who have nothing to offer of substance.
@BeltaneProvide the slightest bit of evidence of where and how. Franklin Roosevelt was one of the most liberal presidents in US history. Under his leadership America was the arsenal of freedom and sent millions of men overseas to help defeat fascist governments across the planet. Trump on the other hand gathered most of his support by picking visible minorities then bashing the heck out of them and eventually had a well documented white supremacist for a campaign manager who then became the key White House strategist. There's ample evidence that the Trump campaign worked closely with the Russian government that used a modern version of the Watergate theft on the DNC and the political rat-fucking - that's the actual name - of the Nixon team. Give us something more than borderline ad hominem nonsense or admit you have zero to offer on this subject.I'll start a new thread on this topic instead of derailing this one.Let's look at the facts. One of America's most liberal Presidents was Franklin Roosevelt. He took office in an America that had been devastated by the same kind of single-minded greed that is destroying not just the US but most of the world now. He also faced the rise of extreme right wing parties in places like Japan, Italy, Spain and Germany. If not for the intervention of a liberal led US the entire world would have entered a conformist nightmare that would have lasted for a very long time. If the US was faced with the same challenge now it's likely that the Trump White House would make common cause with those kind of extremist governments. The Trump White House is an extremist government based on racism, elitism and corruption. trump is more interested in making the Russians happy as we saw with the firing of an FBI director who was trying to fulfill his duty to protect the US Constitution from enemies both foreign and domestic. The Russians who hacked the last US election in favour of Trump are the foreign enemy. Trump and his team who had extensive contacts with the Russians throughout the last election year and took full advantage of the theft of private DNC material are also maintaining that strong connection and working further to undermine the US Constitution are the domestic enemy. Steve Bannon who played a central role in the election of Trump and is still a powerful figure in the Trump White House is a fascist. Too much liberalism my ass, the US faces the grave risk of too much fascism in its hall of power. And that includes groups like the completely misnamed republican Tea Party which is not much more than astro-turf for wealthy conservatives who are rapidly buying their way to complete power in the US. The US needs much greater liberalism and an assertion of what the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution really stand for. And that is for personal liberty and a firm separation of the state from any influences that may try to impose their will on the American people at large. Liberals aren't trying to do that, but conservatives sure as hell are. That includes a man that used a hostile foreign power to take office and who is constantly working to undermine and eventually destroy the US Constitution. Trump is a traitor and so is anyone who is enabling him, that now includes most of the republican party...Unhinged and inaccurate post, sir.
Don’t bother, you’re not worth the time or the effort.
Too much liberalism is like saying too much freedom, what do you think liberalism is.
The problems almost all of us face today is the removal of almost all freedom. Look at what’s in the White House and in control of Congress, the problem in the western world isn’t too much liberalism, it’s too much fascism. And fascists if given a chance eliminate liberals.
Liberalism isn't giving rise those issues, they've always been around in a too-big, complex society. Whats happening is liberalism is pedistalizing gender and sexual disorders through misguided compassion - which leads to what amounts to "victim-worship". It will die out soon.Yep but isn't that just all part of an over liberal attitude?Don't know if I'm reading you right; are you asking if gender and sexual disorders stem from liberalism? If so, the answer to that is no. The disorders themselves are caused by a combination of environmental and genetic factors. Liberal society (the current liberal society) then aggravates the disorders at the expense of everybody else. So you don't think many of these claims are nothing more than self-indulgent delusions on the part of some individuals who are really making a cry for help because they are inadequate in some way? How can you really determine whether a person is in the wrong body, after all, we only have their word for it. You wouldn't normally treat a person in other areas of medicine based on a self-diagnosis. What test is their to accomplish this? How to we know gender-reassignment isn't simply a fashion that some 'vulnerable' people have been seduced by in an attempt to find an answer to other problems in their lives? I gather that not every person who undergoes gender-reassignment finds it is the answer, so maybe there are more fundamental issues that they need to address before embarking on such a radical 'solution.' I'm all for a liberal approach as long as it is really going to benefit suffering, however, liberalism is counterproductive if all it does is allow people to act against their best interests. Ever heard of the phrase 'tough love?'
Too busy to read the whole thread right, or to get an image past the spam filter, but google "political spectrum" and you find charts that put liberalism right in the middle. Most of Western civilization has shifted to the right, so the "center" of the spectrum when you poll people is on the right. But by definition of the word, liberal is centrist, it tries to include everyone and balance the rights of the individual with the rights of the majority or any group. You might mean far-left when you say liberal. But unless you say what programs and ideas you are talking about, I won't know.You can push the idea of rights to ridiculous lengths. There has to be some limit on what people are entitled to, otherwise, society becomes unmanageable. What about the right to own a gun versus the right of a person not to be shot?
And to be clear, the rally cry of the American Revolution wasn't. "Give me conformism or give me death!", it was, "Give me LIBERTY or give me death!" Liberals are far truer to the spirit of America than people who keep trying to ram their religious, political, economic and personal beliefs down everybody else's throat. You know, conservatives... Go live in Iran or Saudi Arabia if you want to experience what ruthlessly enforced conformism is like...What makes you think Saudi Arabia is not a better society to live in than the US? How do you measure happiness?
As evidence regarding my charge of ignorance, see the thread about whether people should get to choose their own gender. I asked several times for people opposing gender choice to justify their belief using an ethical theory. Not one of them had a clue what the words"ethical theory" mean. Worse yet, not one had the intellectual curiosity to to type "ethical theory" into the search bar at the top of the browser window and hit the Return key. They came back with emotional rants, hypothetical situations and empty rhetoric. I even got accused of trying to define "ethical theory" when I called them out on their posts.But is it legitimate to ask whether gender-choice has become an issue driven by our liberal attitudes? Why was this a non-issue not so long ago? In other words, do overly liberal attitudes spawn problems that hitherto did not exist? If so, then it is the fault of the liberals that we have many of today's problems and the claim that such problems always existed in society and that we have to more tolerant of them is bogus. It liberalism itself that is creating problems. Well, glad I made the choice to stay out of the gender choice thread. webplodder; gender choice was never a non-issue. It was a huge issue with people who wanted to control it and they controlled it quite successfully. So successful that mainstream Americans are unaware of all the cultures current and past that have been fine with it. If it was a non-issue, why did the Bible address it? Why were there laws against it? It seems like a problem to people now because liberals are saying people born a certain way should have the same rights as people born another way. Liberals are making an issue about human rights. If that's a problem, then you are against humanity. You are calling someone born with male genitals but female hormones a problem. Your solution is to say that calling them a problem is not a problem. That's insane. I'm not disputing there are unfortunate individuals who have problems identifying with their gender but my fear is many other individuals will have psychological problems that they attribute to gender-confusion that turn out to have other origins.
Liberalism isn't giving rise those issues, they've always been around in a too-big, complex society. Whats happening is liberalism is pedistalizing gender and sexual disorders through misguided compassion - which leads to what amounts to "victim-worship". It will die out soon.Yep but isn't that just all part of an over liberal attitude?Don't know if I'm reading you right; are you asking if gender and sexual disorders stem from liberalism? If so, the answer to that is no. The disorders themselves are caused by a combination of environmental and genetic factors. Liberal society (the current liberal society) then aggravates the disorders at the expense of everybody else. So you don't think many of these claims are nothing more than self-indulgent delusions on the part of some individuals who are really making a cry for help because they are inadequate in some way? How can you really determine whether a person is in the wrong body, after all, we only have their word for it. You wouldn't normally treat a person in other areas of medicine based on a self-diagnosis. What test is their to accomplish this? How to we know gender-reassignment isn't simply a fashion that some 'vulnerable' people have been seduced by in an attempt to find an answer to other problems in their lives? I gather that not every person who undergoes gender-reassignment finds it is the answer, so maybe there are more fundamental issues that they need to address before embarking on such a radical 'solution.' I'm all for a liberal approach as long as it is really going to benefit suffering, however, liberalism is counterproductive if all it does is allow people to act against their best interests. Ever heard of the phrase 'tough love?'Strong agree. There's definitely some big questions about this stuff. I'm just saying the disorders are not caused by liberalism.
Can you back you assumption with any facts? I know of nothing that "too much of" brought down any social of political system.What about pornography, promiscuity, families where both parents are working, leading to lack of child rearing, drug addiction, Anorexia nervosa, obesity, cosmetic surgery, unrestricted immigration, lack of strong male roles, rampant advertising, debt, crime, etc? Why did Trump get elected? People had had enough of the liberal elite. Trump got elected because the the level of intentional disinformation has reached a critical point in the US and much of that is about how the liberals "elites" are destroying America. Something you've obviously also bought into. While the conservatives somehow try and brand themselves as freedom lovers, which is ridiculous. If they had their way the US would be a theological dictatorship. So you don't think many ordinary Americans just wanted a return to 'core-values?'
Let's look at the facts. One of America's most liberal Presidents was Franklin Roosevelt. He took office in an America that had been devastated by the same kind of single-minded greed that is destroying not just the US but most of the world now. He also faced the rise of extreme right wing parties in places like Japan, Italy, Spain and Germany. If not for the intervention of a liberal led US the entire world would have entered a conformist nightmare that would have lasted for a very long time. If the US was faced with the same challenge now it's likely that the Trump White House would make common cause with those kind of extremist governments. The Trump White House is an extremist government based on racism, elitism and corruption. trump is more interested in making the Russians happy as we saw with the firing of an FBI director who was trying to fulfill his duty to protect the US Constitution from enemies both foreign and domestic. The Russians who hacked the last US election in favour of Trump are the foreign enemy. Trump and his team who had extensive contacts with the Russians throughout the last election year and took full advantage of the theft of private DNC material are also maintaining that strong connection and working further to undermine the US Constitution are the domestic enemy. Steve Bannon who played a central role in the election of Trump and is still a powerful figure in the Trump White House is a fascist. Too much liberalism my ass, the US faces the grave risk of too much fascism in its hall of power. And that includes groups like the completely misnamed republican Tea Party which is not much more than astro-turf for wealthy conservatives who are rapidly buying their way to complete power in the US. The US needs much greater liberalism and an assertion of what the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution really stand for. And that is for personal liberty and a firm separation of the state from any influences that may try to impose their will on the American people at large. Liberals aren't trying to do that, but conservatives sure as hell are. That includes a man that used a hostile foreign power to take office and who is constantly working to undermine and eventually destroy the US Constitution. Trump is a traitor and so is anyone who is enabling him, that now includes most of the republican party...Doesn't this show that an over-liberal society will, at some stage, be reacted against by conservative forces who see liberalism as going too far? And that in the process will have a tendency to over-react and and bring in counter extremes of government? For many ordinary people liberalism is not an option because they have more pressing issues to deal with and this can and has led to a 'disconnect' in society that has created a discontent on the part of many hard working Americans who see their basic values under threat and their jobs destroyed by greedy corporations.
@BeltaneWhich just goes to show that when people feel they have been disenfranchised they will turn to anyone who seems to promise real change.Let's look at the facts. One of America's most liberal Presidents was Franklin Roosevelt. He took office in an America that had been devastated by the same kind of single-minded greed that is destroying not just the US but most of the world now. He also faced the rise of extreme right wing parties in places like Japan, Italy, Spain and Germany. If not for the intervention of a liberal led US the entire world would have entered a conformist nightmare that would have lasted for a very long time. If the US was faced with the same challenge now it's likely that the Trump White House would make common cause with those kind of extremist governments. The Trump White House is an extremist government based on racism, elitism and corruption. trump is more interested in making the Russians happy as we saw with the firing of an FBI director who was trying to fulfill his duty to protect the US Constitution from enemies both foreign and domestic. The Russians who hacked the last US election in favour of Trump are the foreign enemy. Trump and his team who had extensive contacts with the Russians throughout the last election year and took full advantage of the theft of private DNC material are also maintaining that strong connection and working further to undermine the US Constitution are the domestic enemy. Steve Bannon who played a central role in the election of Trump and is still a powerful figure in the Trump White House is a fascist. Too much liberalism my ass, the US faces the grave risk of too much fascism in its hall of power. And that includes groups like the completely misnamed republican Tea Party which is not much more than astro-turf for wealthy conservatives who are rapidly buying their way to complete power in the US. The US needs much greater liberalism and an assertion of what the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution really stand for. And that is for personal liberty and a firm separation of the state from any influences that may try to impose their will on the American people at large. Liberals aren't trying to do that, but conservatives sure as hell are. That includes a man that used a hostile foreign power to take office and who is constantly working to undermine and eventually destroy the US Constitution. Trump is a traitor and so is anyone who is enabling him, that now includes most of the republican party...Unhinged and inaccurate post, sir.Provide the slightest bit of evidence of where and how. Franklin Roosevelt was one of the most liberal presidents in US history. Under his leadership America was the arsenal of freedom and sent millions of men overseas to help defeat fascist governments across the planet. Trump on the other hand gathered most of his support by picking visible minorities then bashing the heck out of them and eventually had a well documented white supremacist for a campaign manager who then became the key White House strategist. There's ample evidence that the Trump campaign worked closely with the Russian government that used a modern version of the Watergate theft on the DNC and the political rat-fucking - that's the actual name - of the Nixon team. Give us something more than borderline ad hominem nonsense or admit you have zero to offer on this subject.
Liberalism isn't giving rise those issues, they've always been around in a too-big, complex society. Whats happening is liberalism is pedistalizing gender and sexual disorders through misguided compassion - which leads to what amounts to "victim-worship". It will die out soon.Yep but isn't that just all part of an over liberal attitude?Don't know if I'm reading you right; are you asking if gender and sexual disorders stem from liberalism? If so, the answer to that is no. The disorders themselves are caused by a combination of environmental and genetic factors. Liberal society (the current liberal society) then aggravates the disorders at the expense of everybody else. So you don't think many of these claims are nothing more than self-indulgent delusions on the part of some individuals who are really making a cry for help because they are inadequate in some way? How can you really determine whether a person is in the wrong body, after all, we only have their word for it. You wouldn't normally treat a person in other areas of medicine based on a self-diagnosis. What test is their to accomplish this? How to we know gender-reassignment isn't simply a fashion that some 'vulnerable' people have been seduced by in an attempt to find an answer to other problems in their lives? I gather that not every person who undergoes gender-reassignment finds it is the answer, so maybe there are more fundamental issues that they need to address before embarking on such a radical 'solution.' I'm all for a liberal approach as long as it is really going to benefit suffering, however, liberalism is counterproductive if all it does is allow people to act against their best interests. Ever heard of the phrase 'tough love?'Strong agree. There's definitely some big questions about this stuff. I'm just saying the disorders are not caused by liberalism. But where does it say that some men can't have many feminine attributes and some women can't have many male attributes? This has always been the case because we are all a mixture of male and female and the phrase 'getting in touch with one's feminine side' is apposite here since it shows human beings are complex. That does not mean, however, we have to undergo surgery in order to demonstrate our counter-gender feelings. Why do many gay men not choose to undergo gender-reassignment? They are gay but they do not feel the need to change their body to make them feel they are a whole person.
Liberalism isn't giving rise those issues, they've always been around in a too-big, complex society. Whats happening is liberalism is pedistalizing gender and sexual disorders through misguided compassion - which leads to what amounts to "victim-worship". It will die out soon.Yep but isn't that just all part of an over liberal attitude?Don't know if I'm reading you right; are you asking if gender and sexual disorders stem from liberalism? If so, the answer to that is no. The disorders themselves are caused by a combination of environmental and genetic factors. Liberal society (the current liberal society) then aggravates the disorders at the expense of everybody else. So you don't think many of these claims are nothing more than self-indulgent delusions on the part of some individuals who are really making a cry for help because they are inadequate in some way? How can you really determine whether a person is in the wrong body, after all, we only have their word for it. You wouldn't normally treat a person in other areas of medicine based on a self-diagnosis. What test is their to accomplish this? How to we know gender-reassignment isn't simply a fashion that some 'vulnerable' people have been seduced by in an attempt to find an answer to other problems in their lives? I gather that not every person who undergoes gender-reassignment finds it is the answer, so maybe there are more fundamental issues that they need to address before embarking on such a radical 'solution.' I'm all for a liberal approach as long as it is really going to benefit suffering, however, liberalism is counterproductive if all it does is allow people to act against their best interests. Ever heard of the phrase 'tough love?'Strong agree. There's definitely some big questions about this stuff. I'm just saying the disorders are not caused by liberalism. But where does it say that some men can't have many feminine attributes and some women can't have many male attributes? This has always been the case because we are all a mixture of male and female and the phrase 'getting in touch with one's feminine side' is apposite here since it shows human beings are complex. That does not mean, however, we have to undergo surgery in order to demonstrate our counter-gender feelings. Why do many gay men not choose to undergo gender-reassignment? They are gay but they do not feel the need to change their body to make them feel they are a whole person. I feel liberalism is to blame for over-indulging people in the name of compassion but compassion that is ill-placed.
which leads to what amounts to "victim-worship"."victim-worship" That's funny. It seems to me the new GOP and Trump are the one's who are all about self-victimization-worship. Listen to the delusional garbage being pumped out by the GOP machine. Everybody hates them and everyone else is a perceived enemy. :down:Thats not what I'm talking about, but I'll respond this way - the hate for Trump is intense, and coming from a fairly big segment of society, but he doesn't act like a victim. He's a superstar and he knows it. The GOP might have some names who feel sorry for themselves, probably most don't. What I'm talking about is the liberal tendency to become too compassionate towards marginalized groups at everyone else's expense. It basically amounts to an almost religious veneration of these groups. Another word for it is pathological altruism. And it's as if the liberal elite need to compete with one another to show who occupies the highest 'moral ground.' Maybe they think they stand a better chance of going to Heaven.