Just the thought of letting go of the people and things I care about just because it’s the “right answer” that it will let you “see the world as it is” is almost enough to make me cry sometimes.
First, you’re reading a lot into what the site says. I don’t think it says you have to give up all that stuff forever. A couple days fasting and disconnecting from the material world will return plenty of insight. Then make a sandwich.
Also, anyone who promises that they can show you the answer to what happens after you die and why you exist is full of crap. If there was such a class in Florida and it really worked, there would be a line for it stretching to Georgia. “Give up your worldly possessions” is code for emptying your wallet into their basket.
The “pictures” thing sounds like it comes from Scientology. That is a cult. They manipulate you by getting you to talk about things that bother you and that you consider your weaknesses. They turn you against everyone in your life. It is also used by est/Forum/Landmark Education, but at least they encourage you to stay engaged in the real world and acknowledge your family and friends. It’s not a bad analogy, but it’s pop psychology. It’s a simplified version of cognitive behavioral therapy.
I don’t they meant it is temporary but as permanent. It’s the part about how the things I love and enjoy are false that gets me, even though they don’t say how they are.
How can things be false? If they aren’t giving you any idea of how that’s possible, could it be that it’s not? They are literally asking you to not trust your senses. If they can get you to do that, they can get you to do just about anything. They will point out that your senses sometimes do fool you and that there are things beyond your perception, like parts of the light spectrum or sound beyond our ability to hear. But we’ve known that for centuries. That’s why we created instruments to enhance our ability to observe our universe, and in fact, that’s how we know they are right. It wasn’t through meditation, it was through reasoning and using our brains. Instead of listening to someone who tells you that you don’t know anything, how about listening to people around you who can verify that what you are seeing is what they are seeing. Those are your actual friends that you should trust.
Well it’s like they said in the description I quoted, that those memories, likes, dislikes, etc are “not who you truly are”.
That “The pictures mold us into our pattern of thinking, how we react, and habitual behavior that are not who we truly are. These pictures stored in the mind hold the emotions, thoughts and attachments to people, places, and things.” So it’s pretty much calling my life a lie or an illusion, it’s not really getting at not trusting the senses.
Of course they don’t tell you how those aren’t who you are, I’m guessing it’s along the lines of how at birth we don’t have a self but it’s built as we grow and develop. Since we aren’t born with it and it is shaped by experience it’s not who we are. The second might have to do with how it isn’t permanent so it’s not who we are otherwise it wouldn’t change. But life and everything in it is change, people change, they aren’t the same as they were before.
Either way any time talking about “who you are” comes up I don’t know how to reply.
That by clearing away all that “junk” you get at who you really are.
So, let’s say there is such a thing as an “authentic” self. I’m sure there’s a definition of that we could agree on. Let’s say the people at this meditation center can identify one when they see one. Are they the only people in the world who can do that? How did they learn to make this determination? Were there no authentic selves in the world until they wrote this website? Are all the other people practicing Buddhism doing it wrong? Hopefully these answers are obvious.
If you want to do some self improvement, go for it. There are many ways to go about that. Getting stuck on website that says BS like this:
Who am I? Where do I come from? Where do I go when I die? Why do I live? What happens to me when I die?
You will discover all the answers to these questions as true wisdom enters into your mind by cleansing the false mind.
is not the best way. If it’s Buddhism you like, read Siddhartha by Hesse, go to a local FREE meditation and talk to some people. Find some other Buddhist websites. Synthesize all of that so you can determine for yourself what is possible through meditation.
Good effort Lausten.
I’ve noticed that certain similarity myself.
As the world turns . . . . . . .
I read Siddhartha and I found it a nice little tale and it had a few points, but overall I wouldn’t consider myself Buddhist.
But the thing about the Self just gets me because I heard it from Buddhism, but they say there is no unchanging self in a sense. This is saying that all the things in your life that shape you are not who you are, they are the false self. As in if you aren’t born with it then you aren’t really “that”. That this picture world of our minds that is shaped by experience is in itself false (even though meditation is an experience same as any other) and that is the part that really gets me.
The thought of my life being a lie and anything I take to be “me” really just being false is heartbreaking and hurtful.
We all must choose, what we shall be present to, for ourselves.
That doesn’t really answer the point that I was making. If as they say the stuff we take to be who really are isn’t who we are then how do we live our lives?
That doesn’t really answer the point that I was making. If as they say the stuff we take to be who really are isn’t who we are then how do we live our lives?It kinda does if you gave it any thought at all. Maybe not to your complete satisfaction, but at least enough to be something to engage with. That's kind of the point of this forum, engaging in intelligent discussion. You are simply repeating yourself. You are uncomfortable that someone on the internet might be right about something. It's something that is claimed in a 1,000 other places and has nothing to really back it up. You are showing no interest in reconsidering your position or even in something as simple as clarifying what others are saying. You seek no understanding other than what you began with 10 days ago. Engaging you further would be "feeding the trolls".
Because what I have collected thus far hasn’t really answered my question. He says how we “present” ourselves, but that doesn’t answer my question as to whether or not there really is a “self” or a “who you really are”. I was saying that if the things we like and the way we think aren’t who we are (according to them, because you are the universe, which I don’t buy) then how does one live life? If we are not our values and drives then what are we and what is life without them? They won’t answer without charging you but even the preliminary conversation didn’t answer questions, all she told me was a bunch of stuff that was assumed to be true but no proof or logic leading to it.
But the point about it “not being who you are” is similar to the buddhist notion of there not being an unchanging or core “you”. My problem with that is if there is no guiding principle behind you (a “who you are” to help figure out how you’re supposed to live) then how do we live? They say that it brings peace and all these answers, but I don’t know about that (especially since some people end up worse after meditation).
So far no one has given me a straight answer on the matter of “who you are” and the self, they just manage to dance around it. I know you believe that his response was an answer to the problem I posed, but it isn’t.
Not to mention the part where they mention how all other pleasures are lesser and must be sacrificed for enlightenment.
“How then shall we live” is a great question, but no one can really tell you the answer. You understand why that is, but you decide to be blocked from making a decision because of it. We can only decide based on available evidence. If you decide to not decide, that’s still a choice you’ve made.
This is the best free advice I’ve ever heard, it’s starts in the middle somewhere and lasts 12 minutes. Ryan jokingly asks the question of how we decide what is right and why life is better than not life. He doesn’t expect Dan to be able to answer it, but he does a hell of a job. They frame it in “morality”, but it’s the same basic question of what are we and what do we do with ourselves today. Simply; we are born with attributes that led to our ancestors surviving so we could be here. Those attributes may or may not be useful, but we can use them to survive. Without too much effort, we can see that having powerful people around us increases our chance for flourishing, and working together to improve our environment does even more. He talks about the choice of burning it all down and why that’s not a great way to go.
If you want to talk about not surviving, well, that’s a different conversation, one that doesn’t much interest me.
I referring more along the lines of a “self” since most of what I hear today is about “being who you are” and these meditation people claiming that that is not “who you really are” (your habits, thoughts patterns, etc).
Though looking back there were some red flags: the brochure read like some religious conversion camp that made your current life sound awful and they were selling the cure, the lady didn’t really answer my questions so much as say things as though they were a given without any real explanation (it also felt like she was reading off some script), then they want to charge you for an appointment for clarification.
Red flags, exactly.
But I can’t help but feel fear when they say what is learned isn’t who you really are. Like culture, likes, dislikes, family.